Why do people believe in god?

I never heard of the first two, but I will be happy to covert you back to wonderful worship of the Bacchus, earlier known as Dionysus by the Greeks.

Given the current troubles in Greece, we should have a big crowd at this eve's celebration in Bacchus / Dionysus's honor. If we can find a few minutes alone in that crowd, I'll let you have a swig from my jug in good old W Va style, supported in the elbow bend. - I am sure you, a good old gal of the mountain state, know how.
I'm getting a head start, right now: Montani Semper Liberi !!!

PS After a few swigs each, we can break out in song - "Give me that old time religion" And I do mean Old Time, nothing to do with the modern christian nonsense.
*************
M*W: Okay, now yer a'talking my language! Is it okay if I come barefooted? I'll bring my geetar, and you bring yer jug. Make sure you wear bell bottoms (to accommodate all those extra bottles of hooch!). We'll sing renditions of "Country Roads, Take Me Home," and "Hannah From Montana," until we're blue in the face. A good time will be had by all.
 
Speaking of Montana, I could totally use about two months in a cabin there without the loud calamity of the rest of the world withering me.
 
It's almost impossible to effectively separate "God" from "religion" in any discussion, but I'd like to try. To this end I'm going to replace the word "God" with "something". I don't know what this "something" is, but that's the point. Id like to be as non-specific as I can be in an attempt to do away with as many preconceptions as possible.

I believe in the principle of cause and effect. This is nothing startling of course. But I'm not limiting myself to known physics and our current definition of reality. As anyone who has been paying attention in the "something from nothing" thread will hopefully realize, reality is a greater "something" than current physics is able to describe. I do however maintain that anything that actually exists, that possesses the quality of being actually real, is indeed scientific. Anything that is real must be, even if it is beyond our current understanding. Please believe me when I tell you that this is fundamental and central to my thinking. Something either exists and is scientific, or it doesn't and it isn't. Reality can't be any other way. (Please forgive me if you understood that the first time. I find it necessary to to be repetitive to the point of the possible irritation of some readers for the sake of bringing as many people with me as possible.) After all, is that not exactly what science has taught us? That things that were once thought to be supernatural are eventually found to have a scientific explanation as a result of scientific progress and the application of the scientific method? I believe that this is now and will always be true of all things. In this sense, although I am not a scientist at work, I am the truest of scientists at heart.

One thing I have always been however, is a philosopher. Not one of the greats of course, but a philosopher nonetheless. This is what I live and breathe, no matter what other activities I find myself engaged in. I also strive to be as rational as possible. Rationality is perhaps the tool I rely upon the most because I seek truth. I want to appreciate reality for what it is. Because this is an important goal for me, I am indeed naturally concerned about being led astray. Truth to me can not be whatever makes me feel safe and secure, truth needs to be what is true. Interestingly I have never had a problem building a meaningful existence this way, which is exactly what some people seem to suggest isn't possible for a scientific and rational thinker. Anyway, enough about me. I just felt it was important to share a few things so people know where I am coming from. Let's talk some more about this "something".

I don't know what it is. All I can say about it for sure is that it forms part of the chain of cause and effect. There is a reason that the universe as we know it exists. When I use the word "reason" I don't mean in it the same sense as someone typically would if they were to say "There is a reason that we bumped into each other today." I mean it in the sense that someone would if they said "There is a reason why this mountain has formed here." A scientific reason. A cause. A catalyst. As far as the universe is concerned, I'm thinking further back than the Big Bang. I'm talking about the "something" that existed before that. Or the "nothing" that existed before that as some people would insist that it was. But these people only insist on calling it "nothing" because it does not satisfy the definition of "something" within the realm of current physics rather than because it is absolutely nothing at all. As I have contended in the thread I referenced previously, something is still something even if it beyond our current ability to describe. And as I have previously contended in this post, it must necessarily be a scientific something. At least that is how I believe everyone will see it once we have progressed far enough to see it for what it actually is.

But is this "something" the ultimate "cause" in the chain of cause and effect? I don't know. But if it's not, something else is. As the ancient Greek philosopher Parmenides once pointed out, "ex nihilo nihil fit", or "out of nothing comes nothing". Whether the "something" that existed before The Big Bang is the ultimate something, or whether that something formed some part of an even greater even more fundamental something is an interesting but tricky question. But regardless of which is true, let's finally talk about the "something" that is the fundamental catalyst for all things. Let's finally talk about what it could possibly be.

This is of course well beyond the realm of current physics. It therefore goes without saying that nothing I'm about to say has any real merit outside of philosophical consideration. It also means that I'm not particularly attached to any specific idea as it can not satisfy my criteria for what I consider to be an acceptable foundation on which to build anything. Better to describe everything that follows as a rough sketch that someone might draw on a napkin of some wild idea to amuse themselves while waiting on hold, or during a somewhat boring telephone conversation. Anyway, without further ado...

Consciousness. What is it? Where does it come from? Is it actually real or is it merely an illusion? Whatever the answer to these questions, we are all experiencing it right now. At least I am, anyway ;) One thing that most people don't tend to typically do however is properly consider consciousness in terms of it being a feature of reality, or the universe; whatever term you prefer. But it is. We know this because it's here. For me, this fact does meet my criteria for being a cornerstone from which I can potentially build something grounded in truth. Aside from what I consider to be less useful philosophical ideas such as the possibility that absolutely everything is an illusion (in which case this entire discussion and indeed all of physics is essentially pointless anyway), I don't believe one can legitimately dispute the existence of something that is the very thing that gives you the ability to dispute it in the first place. "I think therefore I am" is all the proof that anyone should need. You exist, and that is the result of natural physical processes that have occurred within the physical universe in which we exist. To look at it another way, the physical universe can manifest itself in such a way as to allow such a thing as consciousness to exist. Dispute that if you wish, but I wont engage you except to clarify. It's an obvious fact.

At this point it is, in my opinion, only a small leap to suggest that it may be possible for consciousness to exist on a greater scale, as part of a greater reality. If you think about it, all I am suggesting is that it is possible for a known feature of reality to also manifest itself, perhaps even more completely or more pervasively, as part of whatever fundamental "something" may exist, and further to my previous contentions, that this something may also be the fundamental "cause" in the chain of cause and effect. If we can explain consciousness, and if we can one day expand our definition of what constitutes physical reality to include this "something" that existed before The Big Bang, then we can explain God. I mean seriously, if God does indeed exist, whoever or whatever God may be, then staying true to my belief that anything that actually exists must be scientific, God is as well.

So, why do people believe in God? There are many reasons of course. But there are those among us who while not believing in any specific God, or necessarily in any God at all, certainly do entertain on a purely intellectual level the possibility of "something" like that.

Thanks for reading, if you did indeed get through this long post. Food for thought I hope, or perhaps more aptly, food for wild speculation.
 
Last edited:
... At this point it is, in my opinion, only a small leap to suggest that it may be possible for consciousness to exist on a greater scale, as part of a greater reality. ...
Rather long winded but I am often guilty of the same so I read it, in part because you are relatively new here and thus not known to be full of BS.

As consciousness is only known to exist when supported by a material substrate, the brain, I think that postulating it could exist before matter did is a huge leap, not a small one.
 
so I read it

I appreciate that :)

As consciousness is only known to exist when supported by a material substrate, the brain, I think that postulating it could exist before matter did is a huge leap, not a small one.

I'll give you that. But I have what I hope is an interesting perspective on it which I will share once I get home from work. It wont be quite as long winded I promise ;) Remember however that by my own admission this is all just wild speculation. Even that is an understatement. I'm fully aware of this fact and my motivation here is nothing more than a desire to explore outrageous possibilities for the sake of enjoyment.
 
The idea of Gods and Goddesses exists in such a wide ranging and diverse number of human societies to suggest there may be a strong genetic component. Maybe not. But, maybe?
 
But is this "something" the ultimate "cause" in the chain of cause and effect?

Personally I am beginning to doubt the fundamentalness of causality. If spacetime itself is emergent in some way (from quantum foam or whatever) that tends to imply it's entire causal structure is emergent too, although the word "emerge" itself carries enough causal connotations for the idea to be damn confusing.
 
It's almost impossible to effectively separate "God" from "religion" in any discussion, but I'd like to try.

it is easier to separate that in my head..ive tried to communicate such..dunno how effectively..

To this end I'm going to replace the word "God" with "something". I don't know what this "something" is, but that's the point. Id like to be as non-specific as I can be in an attempt to do away with as many preconceptions as possible.

some ppl treat the word 'god' as a four letter word..

I believe in the principle of cause and effect.
But I'm not limiting myself to known physics and our current definition of reality.


Something either exists and is scientific, or it doesn't and it isn't.
reality is a greater "something" than current physics is able to describe.

either; god exists and is scientific, if god doesn't exist he isn't scientific..

maybe: god only exists if he can be measured..if god doesn't exist then what would we have to measure?

I do however maintain that anything that actually exists, that possesses the quality of being actually real, is indeed scientific.

Reality can't be any other way. After all, is that not exactly what science has taught us? That things that were once thought to be supernatural are eventually found to have a scientific explanation as a result of scientific progress and the application of the scientific method?

Anything that is real must be, even if it is beyond our current understanding.

so just because we don't know how to measure god now..maybe when we have enough information we will know how to measure him?

I am indeed naturally concerned about being led astray.
who are you following?

Truth to me can not be whatever makes me feel safe and secure, truth needs to be what is true.
is this a referance to god making one all warm and cozy?

But is this "something" the ultimate "cause" in the chain of cause and effect? I don't know. But if it's not, something else is.

so did that proton not collide with that anti-proton so that it could butterfly the chain of events to bring about this limited time edition of Humanity..was that caused by an unforseen hand or purely a random act of the cosmos.
(just cause i don't understand a thing does not mean that thing does not exist.)

As the ancient Greek philosopher Parmenides once pointed out, "ex nihilo nihil fit", or "out of nothing comes nothing". Whether the "something" that existed before The Big Bang is the ultimate something, or whether that something formed some part of an even greater even more fundamental something is an interesting but tricky question. But regardless of which is true, let's finally talk about the "something" that is the fundamental catalyst for all things. Let's finally talk about what it could possibly be.

now this is a reasonable request..lets not get hung up on somantics just because some of us call it god..

Consciousness. What is it? Where does it come from? Is it actually real or is it merely an illusion? Whatever the answer to these questions,
One thing that most people don't tend to typically do however is properly consider consciousness in terms of it being a feature of reality, or the universe; whatever term you prefer.

ahh something else that can't be measured.....does that mean it doesn't exist?

I don't believe one can legitimately dispute the existence of something that is the very thing that gives you the ability to dispute it in the first place.

god(oops sorry).. if Something gives one the ability to choose,we can even choose to try and prove that something does not exist...(how does one prove that something does not exist?)

At this point it is, in my opinion, only a small leap to suggest that it may be possible for consciousness to exist on a greater scale, as part of a greater reality. If you think about it, all I am suggesting is that it is possible for a known feature of reality to also manifest itself, perhaps even more completely or more pervasively, as part of whatever fundamental "something" may exist, and further to my previous contentions, that this something may also be the fundamental "cause" in the chain of cause and effect. If we can explain consciousness, and if we can one day expand our definition of what constitutes physical reality to include this "something" that existed before The Big Bang, then we can explain God.

personal consciousness or collective? hmmm..maybe both..what if our collective conscious is where we find god?

I mean seriously, if God does indeed exist, whoever or whatever God may be, then staying true to my belief that anything that actually exists must be scientific, God is as well.

we still get to choose..whether we have all the info or not..

So, why do people believe in God? There are many reasons of course. But there are those among us who while not believing in any specific God, or necessarily in any God at all, certainly do entertain on a purely intellectual level the possibility of "something" like that.

isn't that how we learn to measure?

Thanks for reading, if you did indeed get through this long post. Food for thought I hope, or perhaps more aptly, food for wild speculation.

i think i just doubled yours..:cool:
 
The way I see it (and I have no way of proving my own theories, and will undoubtedly change my own beliefs in good time), people believe in God for one reason and one reason alone: hope. The fear of the unknown, of things that we cannot rationally understand, has us begging for answers. Since the human mind feels uncomfortable not knowing, the idea of an almighty, all knowing, powerful, supreme being (god) was created to fill in that gap. Ever wonder why people prey when faced with uncontrollable situations such as death? Only when we lose charge of our lives do we turn to "god" for answers, which basically consists of us begging to the sky.

I realize that there are plenty of people who do not view/practice religion in this way, who love God with all of their hearts and try to improve themselves accordingly. Still, my pessimistic side forces me to post the way I truly feel about the whole situation :)

On religion...
Somewhere along the line of history, some brilliant leaders decided to use this passive fear of the unknown to create religion, and form it into something that could control the masses. While civilizations have seen extremely positive results from religion (such as love, unity, peace, laws to live by, etc.), it has also caused an astounding number of people to commit unforgivable atrocities, all in the name of their god.

When used correctly, the fear of god/the unknown can be an awe inspiring thing. Living your life according to the laws of a religion can give you true happiness and hope for the future, and give you goals of self-improvement for your whole life. I'm sure that if the whole world had one deep religion, there would be no war. Still, that is never going to happen, so I guess we will just have to live with what we have right now.
 
consciousness is only kynown to exist when supported by a material substrate

We understand quite a lot about the brain and the physical processes that occur within it. Glia, axons, neurons, synapses, complex molecular structures and elaborate interactive architectures of electrical and chemical signalling. It is all quite incredible. But what is even more incredible, to me at least, is what emerges from this highly sophisticated web of intercommunication. Consciousness and self-awareness.

Self-awareness, specifically, is of particular relevance to this discussion because I believe that it is the single most profound and important aspect of our existence. Much can be learned by reflecting deeply upon the concept of self as seperate and apart from all other aspects of consciousness. I believe that what makes each of us truly unique in this universe is not the thoughts we think or the things that we do, but the fundamental uniqueness of each individual self in the sense that each self exists independantly of every other self, even if they were to exist behind identical personalities.

To properly appreciate this, if you don't already, imagine that it is possible to make an exact copy of yourself, right down to the most fundamental quanta of the fabric that makes you what you are. Which of you would you be? To anyone else you'd be indistinguisable from one another. But even though you'd both lay claim to being you, you could only be one of you. You would still be unique in the sense that you exist independantly of your other self.

Now I can of course identify a number of absurdities with the above hypothetical scenario, but it was designed only to further illustrate what I believe to be the fundamental uniqueness of self. Sitting here in front of this computer, more focused on such considerations than I normally am and therefore experiencing a heightened sense of my own self, it is perfectly clear that what makes me different from everyone else is not just my personality, it is the fact that I am the only self that is this self. I am unique in the sense that I know that I exist, but the only way that I could be absolutely certain that anyone else does, indentical or not, is if I was that self.

In spite of the shortcomings of my hypothetical in which I make a copy of myself, thinking through the possible implications inevitably tends to lead me to the same conclusion. That the self cannot emerge from a purely classically deterministic system. If it could, it would be theoretically possible to duplicate it by recreating the requisite classical physics. I can not reconcile this with my hypothetical, which at least in terms of exploring the question of which you you'd be if there were two of you, seems valid enough. Surely we can not conclude that you'd end up existing in some state of dual self? If this was the case then the act of duplication has resulted in both the original and the copy being fundamentally different from the original before the duplication took place, which means that the duplication was a failure. What follows from this if you're up for the thrill of diving head first into purely speculative waters (yep, we've been swimming around in this pond for a while already, but now we're heading for the deep end) is that if at least some aspect of self is quantum in nature, might it not be possible for some form of self to exist without what you might describe as a material substrate?

I am aware at this point that there's going to be some of you out there that are rolling your eyes. But I'm not a quantum quack I promise you. I'm not one of those largely ignorant people who believe that they can apply the fundamentals of quantum physics to every other aspect of life. I don't believe in quantum consciousness as it is distorted and defined by new age pseudoscientific spiritualists. But speaking of more serious inquiry into the possibility of a quantum aspect to consciousness, the only real criticim is that there is no real compelling scientific evidence. Certainly the brain itself is too large and too hot to be a quantum device, but there is still the possibility that one day we will discover that beneath this amazing organic classical machine there is at least a quantum influence, and perhaps a much more significant one than our current knowledge permits us to appreciate.
 
We understand quite a lot about the brain and the physical processes that occur within it. Glia, axons, neurons, synapses, complex molecular structures and elaborate interactive architectures of electrical and chemical signalling. It is all quite incredible. But what is even more incredible, to me at least, is what emerges from this highly sophisticated web of intercommunication. Consciousness and self-awareness. ...
With man's current knowledge, consciousness is impossible to explain, if its is distinct from self-awareness as I believe and think you do also. Consciousness is particularly difficult to fit within the currently framework commonly accepted in the cognitive science community. (If it can be it equally well is a possible property of sufficiently advanced computational machines.) Most cognitive scientists now lean towards the Computational Theory of Mind. For why I think that the CToM is wrong see:

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2502342&postcount=12

And also read the post linked therein for an alternative theory of minds (and of perceptions, including self awareness.)

-------------
I agree with most of your post, but note that both the original and your "perfect clone" would initially have the same self, but they would rapidly become divergent as their future experiences are different. Also it is not sufficient to merely make exactly the same, atom by atom, molecule by molecule, clone to have a perfect clone. Every atom, etc. must not only be in the same relative geometric relationships to all the others but also have identical velocities.

For example, it is the diffusion of neuro-transmitters across synaptic clefs (a velocity / temperature dependent) effect that determines your every thought and action. Even if this could be done too, the clone although having a self awareness would not even initially have the same self awareness as you do.

This is be cause this diffusion is essentially a biased random walk process driven by the existing concentration gradient. Although quantum uncertainty effects are small, they would be large enough to cause significant difference in the attachment of some neuro-transmitters that coming to the receptive sites of post synaptic nerves. I.e. the exactly corresponding nerve in one clone may fire (generate an Na ion depolarization wave traveling down its axon) and the other not do so because of the quantum effect accumulated in the many random walk steps a neurotransmitter molecule requires in crossing the synaptic gap.

As a final comment there was one very well versed neurophysicist, Sir John Eccles, who did have quantum mechanics play a significant role in the self. He wrote a book which I have read called "The self and it consciousness (or brain?)" or something like that. Search his name to learn more - I am pretty sure I have spelled it correctly.

After you have read the above link you will understand that I do know a few things about the neurophysiology of the brain. If you also read the post that is linked therein we can discuss my alternate theory of how perception, self awareness, even free will, may work.
 
but note that both the original and your "perfect clone" would initially have the same self, but they would rapidly become divergent as their future experiences are different.

Experiences differ and obviously play a part in shaping our personalities and our perceptions, but the self is always the same. You are the same self now that you were 10 years ago, even though you may now be a somewhat different person.

Also it is not sufficient to merely make exactly the same, atom by atom, molecule by molecule, clone to have a perfect clone. Every atom, etc. must not only be in the same relative geometric relationships to all the others but also have identical velocities.

I tried to keep my post as short as I could which is why I didn't go into too much detail. When we create a duplicate person in my hypothetical, we are indeed recreating all of the same physics which includes everything you've mentioned and more. This is of course currently impossible, and may always be impossible. But as I said, if the self can emerge from a purely classical system then it should be possible to recreate exactly the same self because you could (only theoretically at this stage) recreate exactly the same physics. This is the very foundation of my hypothetical and is what leads to the central question of which you you'd be if you duplicated yourself, which in turns leads me to the seemingly inevitable conclusion that you can't duplicate a self. In other words, my hypothetical seems impossible, but it's designed precisely to demonstrate that. Each self is unique and owes it's uniqueness to something more fundamental than classical physics.

At a glance we are way off topic here, but from my perspective we are exploring a fundamental aspect of the question at hand. Why do people believe in God? Everything I have discussed here is in support of my position that it is possible to accept that something like that may exist without being in direct opposition to anything we currently understand about the universe. While it may not seem possible to many people here that some sort of greater consciousness or self could exist without a physical body, it certainly doesn't seem impossible to me. I mean seriously, the self might owe it's uniqueness to something even more fundamental than quantum mechanics. That unique aspect of consciousness may be a piece of something that is absolutely fundamental. Perhaps it is a product of a particular configuration of quanta of energy oscillating at particular frequencies in x number of different dimensions. Or perhaps string theory is not just the theory of everything that makes up our universe, but is an interface between our reality and whatever reality might exist beyond or apart from it, such as the unphysical state that some physicists and mathematicians believe existed before the explosion of time and space that we call the Big Bang. We call this is an unphysical state because we can not assign any properties to it that fall within the current definition of "physical". But it is a state nonetheless.

It's also possible of course that nothing I've said here is even close to the truth. But that's OK because I'm not seriously invested in any of it. It's a lot of fun to think about though, that's for sure.
 
(1) Experiences differ and obviously play a part in shaping our personalities and our perceptions, but the self is always the same. ... (2) it should be possible to recreate exactly the same self because you could (only theoretically at this stage) recreate {with} exactly the same physics. ...
I am confused (perhaps you are too?) as to what is your concept of "self."

Your (1) & (2) are self contradicting in that (1) states self is always the same and (2) strongly implies self would be different if the molecules were different (did not "recreate exactly the same physics").

Not one molecule of you when a 10 year old is the same, in the same relative location, etc. as when you are a 50 year old.

Which is it: (a) Self is invariant with time's physical changes in your body OR
(b) Self is highly dependent upon the physical configuration of your body's atoms and molecules? (Must have "exactly the same physics" to be the same self.)

Please try to define self. Or at least tell what factors make self change (in one individual) OR if (1) is true (self never changes) then tell why self is unique. I.e. tell what makes self of person A differ from self of person B. (It can not be that they have entirely different physical constitution, life experiences, etc. as so do you when 10 years old vs. 50 years old.)

Is your concept of self, just that everyone has the understanding that they are unique? If that is your definition of self, then everyone has the same "self" by this definition. What makes the "self" of A differ from the self of B? (yet not your self as 10 year old differ from your self as 50 year old)

I agree the discussion o self only superficially appears to be off thread. Belief in God or not is a very central part of your self, IMHO.

As I said: You seem confused. You need to think more clearly to avoid self contradiction.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Which is it: (a) Self is invariant with time's physical changes in your body OR (b) Self is highly dependent upon the physical configuration of your body's atoms and molecules? (Must have "exactly the same physics" to be the same self.)

The self doesn't change. You're the same self now that you were when you were 10 years old. That's why you have always been having your experiences rather than someone elses. Your self has always been attached to your life. I can't reconcile this with classical deterministic physics and my original hypothetical was designed to highlight the nature of problem.

Please try to define self. Or at least tell what factors make self change (in one individual) OR if (1) is true (self never changes) then tell why self is unique. I.e. tell what makes self of person A differ from self of person B. (It can not be that they have entirely different physical constitution, life experiences, etc. as so do you when 10 years old vs. 50 years old.)

Again, the self never changes. You are always you, no matter much your experiences influence your personality. You are intrinsically aware of this on some level even if you don't realize it. The uniqueness of the self is staring every one of us right in the face. The problem is that it takes some people a lot of reflection and philosophical exploration to finally recognize it for what it really is and then even more time to properly appreciate the implications. I'm not sure I can at this point offer any new arguments to demonstrate this. If this changes I'll come right back here with one.


Is your concept of self, just that everyone has the understanding that they are unique? If that is your definition of self, then everyone has the same "self" by this definition. What makes the "self" of A differ from the self of B?

If self A is you, then self A differs from self B in the sense that you are self A, not self B. If self A and self B were identical, you'd be both. But alas, you'll either intuitively understand this or you wont. I'm going to go and try to hunt down a great albeit lengthy exploration of this subject by a writer who's name I can't recall right now that I enjoyed reading many years ago. I'll post a link if I can eventually find a digital copy somewhere.
 
The self doesn't change. You're the same self now that you were when you were 10 years old. That's why you have always been having your experiences rather than someone elses. Your self has always been attached to your life....
If self A is you, then self A differs from self B in the sense that you are self A, not self B. If self A and self B were identical, you'd be both. ...
I am begining to understand that your think the self is something attached to your body - sort of like some think of the soul being attached. - Is that correct statement, or at least consistent with your POV about "self"?

That whatever processes (or whoever) attaches it does so before you were born. -Is that correct?

That if one could make a perfect physical duplicate of A, called B, it would not have any "self" attached. - Is that correct? or would it get a self identical to A's self? I think in either case B would have experiences. For example hurt, experience pain, if stuck with a knife. This "self " of yours seems to do nothing, have no role to play in life etc. - Is that correct?

As far as why your experiences are yours, it seems total nonsense to think that is because you have an attached self, instead of because these experiences were sensed by your body's neural system, (including a memory system for possible future recall of the experience).

I.e. A will experience pain if I stick A's body with knife, and B does not. Nor can B remember the knife pain, but A very likely can. IMHO every experience you have ever had was sensed by your nerves (including the processing in your brain) with nothing to do with some postulated soul or self, as you seem to be using the term self.

How does your "self" differ from the common concept of an attached soul?

One difference may be that your self can not be changed by changes in my ideas but the soul can be. For example if i come under the influence of a terrorist group, accept their POV and then successfully send airmail altitude triggered bombs on a dozen airplane to kill 3000 people (more than 9/11) my previously "bound for heaven" soul would get its destination changed but not your self, which can not change.

Hello National security computer - nice to have you reading my posts. :D If that last paragraph does not cause you to bump this up to "human read" level - you need to be reprogrammed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Moon_goddess_Diana.jpg
Diana, another Goddess I worship from the good old days when Gods were useful.

God is still useful, Billy. You just think you don't need him.
 
Jesus_021.jpg
Jesus_070_small.jpg
Jesus_059_small.jpg
Give me 10% of all you earn to go to heaven.

It is this shave needing hippy bum that is not useful. Diana, pictured in prior post, is a very useful goddess.*
Can't you see the difference? What can he do that she can not do better? I need her*, not him.

Which would you like to worship?

----------------------
* She gives us our "daily bread" and the spice of life and the excitement of the hunt for it.
Neptune is needed, useful, too: He gives us fish and other “fruits of the sea” plus safe passage over it, usually.


I am in favor of the “old time religion.” Not the more modern deviations / heresies that mainly want me to give money to them.

Gods that specialize are more efficient - know and do their jobs better than one "jack of all trades."
Of that there is proof, by Henry Ford and hundreds of others. What proof do you have for the converse?


BTW - The hoedown** with Medicine Woman and dozens of Greeks was so successful that we will make it every full moon (Best day for Diana Worship)***.
You are welcome to convert to the old time religion. Come and join in. ** Dress etc. details here: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2538364&postcount=181

*** Especially if the worship is a joint celebration of Bacchus too. Lovers knew this before they knew their names!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The church used to collect 10% for public works. Mainly from the wealthy in the community. Ted Turner gave 2% of Profits one year (1 billion) to the UN and was acclaimed a hero. I imagine most people worshipped God because that's the only force on Earth (or in Heaven) that could prize the coin from the tight grip of most wealthy people back in the day for public works. Now-a-days, forget about it :)
 
Another way to think about the OP is this:
Why do some people believe in God but not Gods?
Why do some people believe in Gods but not a single God?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top