Why do people believe in God? - results

James R

Love the experiment. I have a hypothesis as to why there exists
such a rational / emotional difference between theists and
atheists; although, you will note that the hypothesis would be
a pain in the ass to test.

As you may or may not be well aware of, human beings have
4 very distinctive personality types. Here are some titles and
'surface' summaries of those types:

Rational - Mr Spocks. Cold hard numbers rule.
Artisan - Very adaptable, go with the flow type of folks.
Guardian - They live and die by lists and planning.
Idealist - Touchy-feely type of folk. They love to relate.

I suspect that the theists who responded may be dominantly
part of the 'Rational' personality type; whereas, atheists would
not. Of course the only way to test the hypothesis would be
to issue personality tests to all those whom participated in your
poll (which would be a frightful task to undertake).
 
Crunchy Cat:

There are plenty of personality tests on the web. I'm not sure if you're referring to a Myers-Briggs type classification, or something else, but there are only a few widely-used methods.

It would be possible to test for a correlation. My suspicion is that you wouldn't find one, but I could be wrong.
 
James R.

I am reasonably certain that this is a Keirsey Temperment
type of classification that I referred to. If you have the ability
to run the participants of your poll through an equivelant online
personality test that would be great. I know our suspicions of
the outcome differ, but thats what makes testing a hypothesis
so much fun! It's possible we might pick up on some relations
that neither of us expected.
 
"What does all this tell us? I think it is a warning to us that we should be careful of our tendency to assume that other people are not just as rational as we are. We should all consider the possibility that other people have good reasons for their believes, which may just make some sense, even if we do not share those beliefs ourselves."

I basically agree. I think though that the problem with religious beliefs, especially those gained through teaching by authority figures, tends to harden the mind of the believer against the possibility that they might be wrong. It doesn't help that in many theologies (this applies to Marxism-Leninism as much as Islam or Christianity) is 'non-believers' or 'heretics' who do not adhere very closely to a certain interpretation or belief are immediately cast as some kind of evil 'other' which needs to be feared, hated and destroyed; indeed, fear of this sort underlies a lot of the modern phenomenon of religious fundamentalism. (See Karen Armstrong's excellent book "The Battle for God" for a detailed analysis).

Another problem is since the great world religions were founded in the 'Axial Age' when words began to be put down into written books, the material in these sacred books acquired a mysterious aura of power, sacredness and infallibility. This is probably partly due to the fact that for most of history, the vast majority of mankind was illiterate, and the written book was something mysterious, powerful and even magical, controlled by a very narrow class of literati. Since the sacred texts 'froze' and became infallible and unquestionable, I see an attitude in much of modern religion as 'holding the fort against the barbarians' rather than 'let's re-think our ideas and have a dialogue with those who don't share our belief.'

This is not to say there are many deep and interesting figures within theism who are willing to discuss and defend their ideas rationally-anyone who has read people like Peacocke and Polkingthorne can see that-but I think modern theism needs to deal with the problem of fundamentalism and fanatacism which is ripping like a wildfire through virtually every major religion at the moment.
 
IMO,

The majority of people believe in God because they think they're supposed to. We live in a world of followers, with very few free thinkers. In fact, free thinkers have historically been ridiculed, or worse.
 
Originally posted by VRob
IMO,

The majority of people believe in God because they think they're supposed to. We live in a world of followers, with very few free thinkers. In fact, free thinkers have historically been ridiculed, or worse.


Indeed there are some followers of God who do so because they think they're supposed to. I was one of them. I live in the Bible Belt South, raised by a very conservative/Christian home. Initially I was a Christian who was such only because I was raised that way. Keep in mind that I was about 6-7 at the time. Now 9 years later, I have grown and--as Paul said of one group who listened to him in Athens <"searched the scriptures that they might find that these were true,"--am able to take up the armor of the God and can debate my faith--not religion--as I have come to do here. I can say that I believe what I believe because I have searched it--the existence of God and the belief that Jesus is the only way to the Father--and found it to be true. Granted I can't rationalize everything in the Bible because my mortal mind can't comprehend it all. But I don't limit God by what I can understand or rationalize. I personally can't explain how electricity works, but I'll use it anyway.
 
Why people beleive in God

This quote was made by Mary Wortley Montagu during her lifetime (1689 - 1762). No one has said anything half as intelligent on this entire site.

"Nobody can deny but religion is a comfort to the distressed, a cordial to the sick, and somethimes a restraint to the wicked; therefore, whoever would laugh or argue it out of the world , without giving some equivalent for it, ought to be treated as a common enemy."

When anyone can offer up any answer as to where this universe, this planet, this life, came from - then you will have a real debate on your hands. Right now - there is no intelligent debate. God says everyone will know of Him because of creation itself. Creation can not be accounted for in any other way aside from the Biblical account. Even science is proving out the biblical account more and more with every passing new discovery. If you doubt this than maybe you're not as up to date on the your information as you thought you were. Are you even aware that some astrologists beleive that there really is a large mass that the entire universe is circling around and that some of them even claim that that central mass is God Himself? For anyone who questions whether or not there really is a God, this type of site is terribly dangerous. If you find yourself not knowing, then remember this - it is Satan - not God - who is the author of confusion and lies. This has been attested to and proven out over thousands of years. Make a choice not to listen to the lies that lead to confusion. There is a God. This is not an opinion, it is a truth that everyone has a right to know.

Mostly people get angy because God did not answer them according to their own wishes. Seems like there is a biblical account of another who wanted things his way. It didn't turn out so great for that guy. Lucifer was God's greatest creation, nothing more beautiful existed, there was constant interraction between them, and still Lucifer decided that he was the better of the two. Pride, something that gets hurt when we don't get what we want from God, goeth before a fall.

Ask yourselves what the question really is. Are you just mad at God so you think you're getting even by not acknowledging Him? It is better to have never known Him than it is to have known Him and denied Him. This is called the unforgivable sin. Think about it. To me mad at least is to still beleive. Search deep and find out what it was and then go to prayer. There is an answer. You just have to see past all the lies to hear it.

As for those who aren't mad, and just really don't beleive that there is a God - I don't know what to say. It seems more sad to me than any other spiritual place I could imagine. Maybe that is what hell is. It must be. To not beleive in God is to have no hope, no faith, no answers, no teammate, no one to go before you, no one to catch you when you fall, no one to force you to get back up again, no one keep you from falling into the deep abyss, no one to receive your accusations in a fit of rage against this world, no one to nod in understanding as we feel we have been betrayed by those we love, no one to cry to endlessly, no one to stop or descramble the lies of the evil one and his friends. To not beleive in a very dangerous place to be indeed.

I don't say this from a nice cozy seat of religiosity. I do say this from the perspective of someone who has seen the faces of demons. I know those devils are out there and I know how they try to destroy people. I also know how powerful they are. But the secret weapon is that they loose all their power when you choose not to listen to the lies anymore. I also know what it is like to have people you love murdered, and your life is forever changed by the anger of one person. I also know what it is like to have your child on a bus where the driver who was on drugs killed four other kids. People think that if you believe in God then bad things don't happen. That is a lie. Bad things happen, it is your beleif in God that gets you through any of it with any sanity left. If God protected us from all the bad things in this world, then there would be no use for choice. He clearly gave us free will, and with that comes bad things. We are not gods, we are just stupidly running around on this planet beleiving a lie that we are really worth something outside of the love of God. Some people are afraid to admit that we are nothing outside of the love of God, but the real truth brings such freedom that you can never imagine it.

" It is for freedom He set us free" meaning that we are free to make our choices, but when we freely choose him, we are free from all the lies that the evil one tries to get us to beleive. And then we are truly free because we have knowledge of the One who made us, the One who truly loves us, the One who has redeemed us, and the One to whom every knee will bow. Believing in Him now sets you free from the bondage of lies that would come against you saying that He doesn't care.

The bible says the even the devil beleives in Jesus Christ. Would you claim yourselves to be more ignorant than Satan? James 2:19
 
First let me just say that this was an interesting post and if anyone has a link to a large statistical survey completed I’d be interested to see how it matches up.

Originally posted by James R
First, I think it is interesting that most theists give rational reasons for their belief in God. Their beliefs, on the whole, are based in personal experience of their God, or in logical inference from the perceived order of the universe and/or life. The most common response to the poll (by a small margin) was that theists believe because of the apparent design of the universe. They look out at the beauty of the world and conclude that a God must be responsible. The second most common response is that they feel the direct influence of God in their lives.

In is interesting to contrast these responses with the common portrayal of theists by non-believers. Very often, atheists (in particular) label theists as weak-willed people who believe in fairy tales for purely emotional reasons. Alternatively, theists are often labelled as blind followers of authority, who never ask their own questions about the meaning of life.

The end analysis does seem to fit as I would expect and thus, although I found it interesting, that when the analysis was complete more people considered “atheist” versus “theist” were found to fit in the emotional category – I did not find it surprising. One first needs to look at the stats and then the “rational’ categories.

Theists' own descriptions of why they beleive in God:
78% rational
18% emotional
6% authority-based.

Atheists' own descriptions of why they do not believe:
51% rational.
46% emotional.
5% true agnostic. [/B]

These Stats are as I would expect. However I think the analysis may be faulty. Let me explain:

These are the six most popular “rational arguments” for a god

The ontological argument
The cosmological argument
The argument from design
The argument from miracles
The moral argument
The pragmatic argument

Although not exactly the same as in the survey - lets compare:

1) The universe is so perfect/complex, it must have been designed by God.
2) Without God, there would be no morality.
3) God's plan is visible in the world.
4) God answers my prayers.
5) I experience God everywhere in my daily life.

1) The universe is so perfect/complex, it must have been designed by God.
This seems to follow The cosmological argument which has been rationally argued previously and as of today is deemed by theist and atheists alike not to be a valid argument for OR against the existence of god. As such I would think anyone using this as a rational bases would not have studied the modern debate of the argument and hence be relying on emotional experience of awe at the seemingly perfect universe. Because of its popularity I would expect many people not well versed in the finer nuances to use this as an argument for their belief in god to add a little “rational” weight behind their belief (no matter how irrational it is). As expected – and by your own words – most theists use this as their rationalization for god.

Not so surprising.

2) Without God, there would be no morality.
This follows The moral argument and is not a valid argument. Simply put one does not need a god to fit a societies idea’s of morals. As such this is not rational – most people of any faith can reason that much.

3) God's plan is visible in the world.
This seems to follow The argument from design and is also not a valid rational argument and has in fact been superseded by evolution.

4) The last two I will lump together. At least the first three have been actually postulated as rational arguments and have thus been debated. However these:
A) God answers my prayers.
B) I experience God everywhere in my daily life.
Are purely emotional responses. There are no rational arguments to be made from them. Anyone using these should perhaps be moved to the emotional category.

new analysis:
The reason that more atheists fell into the “emotional” category is that they typically have studied the arguments and understand that they can not rationally be used to prove or disprove god and as such make a “call” (usually “Occam's razor style) to go with - no belief. Where as most theist (weak-willed or not) have not studied the theories in depth and as such use them as quazi-rational reasoning to back-up their preexisting belief in god (case in point our debates on intelligent design: choice #3).

This is as most people do perceive theists. As such - your own statistics continue to validate the said stereotype you (perhaps) originally set out to invalidate. That theists are weak-willed and will scratch at anything to validate their preexisting belief in a deity and claim its “rational” while more atheists are “rational” and will rationally except that there is no solid argument against god(s) puff the magic dragon etcetera and make the emotional choice not to believe in them.
:D
 
1) The universe is so perfect/complex, it must have been designed by God.

This argument is foolish in that it ASSUMES complexity. It states that because something is one way and not another that somehow makes it perfect. They argue that 'if the earth were titled a bit more, life wouldn't exist."

So what? Life certainly doesn't exist anywhere else and at one point life DIDN'T exist on this planet and in the future it may not.

Thiests like to use the childish watch example, which is refuted again and again. See here: http://www.skepdic.com/design.html


Furthermore, it comes down to common sense: If you can't prove OR disprove something, refute it anyway. I can postulate that their are giant purple tentacles living inside the moon that turn invisible when people look for them. Since it can't be proven that they DON'T exist, then it must be a possibilty right? Wrong. It's called faith, and faith is not a physical substance. It has no properties in the universe, therefore it is useless. People are too often concerned with the 'other world' that they have never seen, yet they chastify the only existence they can actually be sure of...this one.

Emotional bit:
For me the only 'god' is the universe, which I have dubbed Wotan, the father of my ancestors. Natural orders, natural things. Schopenhauer said that the universe is absurd, and I agree, there is no realm of infinite possibilities, there is no place of perfect knowledge and perfect thoughts, there is only a crazy jungle out there that can either swallow you or be conquered by you. No meaning, no mercy, no purpose, no absolute.
 
Originally posted by and2000x
, it comes down to common sense: If you can't prove OR disprove something, refute it anyway. I can postulate that their are giant purple tentacles living inside the moon that turn invisible when people look for them. Since it can't be proven that they DON'T exist, then it must be a possibilty right? Wrong. It's called faith, and faith is not a physical substance. It has no properties in the universe, therefore it is useless. People are too often concerned with the 'other world' that they have never seen, yet they chastify the only existence they can actually be sure of...this one.
Please think (or read) more about the complex relationship between truth and provability before applying your 'common sense' to the issue so hastily. You will find that science and philosophy would vigorously dispute your view.
 
www.importanceofphilosophy.com - Randian in nature, but I think you can get past it to find a clear answer.

The "concept" of God is usually defined by a lack of a definition. God is usually said to be unlimited in power, knowledge, and goodness and unknowable to us mere mortals; but these are all traits that are defined by a lack of something.

"God" is not a concept at all because it subsumes no particulars. Unlike a real concept, there is nothing in reality to which one can refer to and say, "That is God." To be unlimited in power, omnipotence, is a contradiction. To be unlimited in goodness, omnibenevolence, is taken without any standard of good. Regarding God, it is said that God is good. What is good? God's will. What characterizes God's will? Goodness. That circle is without substance and meaningless. Some people claim that all these objections are silly because God is simply unknowable. How do they know that God is unknowable?

The notion of God is nothing but a big mixture of contradictions and nothingness. There is no meaning behind the word and no concept to even define.

We view with mirth the ancient Greeks and Egyptians and other peoples with their pantheons of various Gods controlling various aspects of the world. We laugh at contemporaries who claim to have been visited by aliens or seen Bigfoot. Some even laugh and deride those scientists who make claims with only a little evidence in support of their views. But what is truly ridiculous is the people who then turn around and say, "the belief in God is perfectly fine" either because someone they know believes it or because a large portion of the population believes it. Truth is not a social phenomenon. Reality is absolute and can only be understood through reason.

What is disappointing is not so much all of the faithful, but all those who sanction faith in others. To accept without comment this ridiculous self-contradicting life destroying nonsense in one's peers and give it a sort of spiritual relativism sanction, to claim that each can believe whatever he wants, that one spiritual belief is just as valid as another -- that is what perpetuates the evil of faith-based religions and notions.

The belief in God and the acting on that belief is evil. It divorces one's knowledge and actions from reality, with consequences ranging from the trivial (wasting one morning a week) to the disastrous (crusades, having unwanted children, Israelis and Arabs slaughtering each other over a patch of desert, wasting one's entire life working for a purpose not one's own, etc.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people who believe in God view him as a father figure. Like a father, he provides, he sets boundaries, and (like some fathers) he defines what one should do in life. Some, like the Existentialists, claim that without a God life has no meaning and it is "absurd". They view life without God like the life of a toddler without a parent: arbitrary, wandering around in the muck, not knowing what to do or why, with no purpose, no end, and alone and unhappy. But, like all children, believers in God need to grow up. Life as an adult is much more rewarding than life as an infant.

Meaning is epistemological, not metaphysical or intrinsic. Different things have different meanings to different people based on the context of their experiences and goals. Purpose is an individual attribute. When one defines one's own purpose, accomplishing it really means something, as opposed to accomplishing some seemingly random task set by a parent. Self-reliance, when one is responsible for one's own life and lives it as an adult rather than as a parasitic dependant, is one of the most glorious aspects of existence; and finding friendship among one's peers is far more rewarding than with an imaginary friend. All children should strive to give up their imaginary friends and face the world as confident adults, masters of their own lives, without need of psychological crutches.
 
Please think (or read) more about the complex relationship between truth and provability before applying your 'common sense' to the issue so hastily. You will find that science and philosophy would vigorously dispute your view.

Have you ever heard of 'ad ignorantiam'? It's a fallacy to say that because there is no proof of god that there is no disproof of him.
 
Originally posted by and2000x
Have you ever heard of 'ad ignorantiam'? It's a fallacy to say that because there is no proof of god that there is no disproof of him.
I wasn't talking about God. I was talking about the lack of logic in your post. You seem to believe that proof does away with the need for faith, whereas in fact life is not so simple.

As to your comment here it doesn't really matter. It is also a fallacy to say that because there is no proof of him he doesn't exist. The existence of God is (in third-person terms) an undecidable question, and everybody means something different by the word anyway.
 
and2000X - quote

"The notion of God is nothing but a big mixture of contradictions and nothingness. There is no meaning behind the word and no concept to even define."

That's almost precisely the Buddhist view. I agree with you that most concepts of God are very naive. (Not surprising given the human condition). However that does not mean that there is nothing beyond the physical world, nor that there is no truth at all in the notion of God.

Most scientific theories are considered to be only approximations of the truth. This does not mean there is no truth in any of them.
 
You seem to believe that proof does away with the need for faith, whereas in fact life is not so simple.

You are right, since it is negates the topic.

It is also a fallacy to say that because there is no proof of him he doesn't exist. .

It is not a fallacy, it is called Occam's Razor. Occam postulated that god can never be proven by physical means, thus his existence is only possible through the testaments and nothing more. It also concludes that out of two outcomes, the simple path is always more logical. The jist is this:

1) There is a universe
2) There is a universe and god created it.

Occam said pick number 1, because it is more simple and does away with an uneeded theorem.

As of recent years Occam's Razor has been downplayed by the fact that soliphists, skeptics and other lunatics have used it to justify their crazy ideas. In fact, it has been used by theologists to prove god, which is contradicting and illogical! However, for the god argument it has always stood. Bottom line: Don't pluralize if you don't have to.

I can find a 5000 year old stone detailing the cult of Cthulhu, but unless I find evidence for Cthulhu, there is no real reason to keep it open as an option.

No, I can't say god DOESN'T exist, because I have no evidence that he DOESN'T, which is an absurd idea. If I can't find him, why postulate him?! For all I know, there could be 900 gods.

The existence of God is (in third-person terms) an undecidable question, and everybody means something different by the word anyway

This is EXACTLY As the article points out: if there is no standard and decision as to what a god is, then it is hopeless to look for one. If god means a million different things then picking one to look for will take an eternity. You are using judgement and sympathy, not fact.
 
However that does not mean that there is nothing beyond the physical world

That is completely absurd: there is NOTHING beyond the physical. Our scientists, our philosophers, our average day people have never observed anything that is of non-physical properties. In fact, anything that is not 'physical' could never be detected for the simple reason that it is well....not physical. Do not bat around with semantics, it makes you sound crazy.

If there is a god of sorts, she/he/it could ONLY be physical and of the properties of this universe. I do not mean universe as in an expanding/contracting balloon of space (if you think such shit is true), I mean universe as in 'all things that are'. Anything outside of the universe is impossible, since all things are the universe.
 
Originally posted by and2000x
You are right, since it is negates the topic.
I can't see why. It fascinated Popper, Penrose, Lucas, Goedel and many others. (Perhaps you might think about reading some of the good writers on this topic)
[It is not a fallacy, it is called Occam's Razor. Occam postulated that god can never be proven by physical means, thus his existence is only possible through the testaments and nothing more. It also concludes that out of two outcomes, the simple path is always more logical. [/B]
No it does not, it concludes that the simple path is more simple, and asserts that we shouldn't complicate things unnecessarily. It is completely unclear how Sir Williams razor should be applied to the question of God. In some ways God is a much simpler and cleaner theory that its competitors. (Btw - just to put your mind at rest - I don't believe in God)

[I can find a 5000 year old stone detailing the cult of Cthulhu, but unless I find evidence for Cthulhu, there is no real reason to keep it open as an option.[/B]
This seems a bit arbitrary. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are plenty of good reasons for supposing Cthulhu was an illusion, or a misunderstanding, but no proof of it.

[No, I can't say god DOESN'T exist, because I have no evidence that he DOESN'T, which is an absurd idea. If I can't find him, why postulate him?! For all I know, there could be 900 gods.[/B]
Fair enough. But some other people find that there is evidence for him, and science is still unable to replace him with anything more logical.

[This is EXACTLY As the article points out: if there is no standard and decision as to what a god is, then it is hopeless to look for one. If god means a million different things then picking one to look for will take an eternity. You are using judgement and sympathy, not fact. [/B]
Please read more carefully. I am not arguing for God. I am saying that if you are going to disprove Him then you need a much more logically sound argument than the one you're using.
 
I don't understand how you can call "religion is the cause of many wars" an emotional viewpoint. A person observes that religion is the cause of many wars, taking one example as being the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Here we have Palestinian Jews and Jews who have emigrated from places like Eastern Europe living in a newly established country, fighting against Palestinian Muslims. Scientific studies show that Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims are the same ethnic group. Their religion, culture and social standing is all that separates them. Biologically, they are the same people. The immigrant Jews don't share this though, and the only reason they are in Israel in the first place is because the Israeli Government encourages Jews to settle in Israel, which is a political situation caused by the presence of religion in the world.

Therefore, I would say that the statement "religion is the cause of many wars" is a rational viewpoint, a viewpoint attained by conclusions made by observing situations in the world, such as the one in Palestine. If both sides abandoned their religion and culture, and if the non-native Israelis returned to where they originally came from (eg. Eastern Europe), you would be left with a group of people who are exactly the same in just about every way. When the source of things that lead to conflict is a difference in culture caused by a difference in religion, I think it's one of the most rational and logical things one can say is that this conflict is caused by religion, or rather, the difference in religion.
 
Accolade to Canute

I have to give it to that guy/girl Canute... s/he has made the most sense to me on this forum as a non-theist... His/er views seem totally unbiased.
 
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