Why are you considered insane if you say God has spoken to you?

[okinrus]

Interesting point. So why can't people pray and be able to hear voices from only demons or insanity?

Yes, it's possible to hear God. I did not say "only" there.

Why is God left out of that equation?

Someone who hears a voice should be very careful, especially if they neither feel God nor are in a state of grace during the locution. I know, however, that if the person is not a state of grace, then a good voice will direct the person to become in a state of grace(ie., the apparition to Paul was first for Paul to repent and then Paul was given instructions to preach.)

While a evil voice may be able to disguise himself/herself for a while, the intention will eventually become plain.

If you're praying and you hear a response in your prayer, why do fellow believers think you're in la la land for daring to say that God spoke to you?

I've seen people deceived.

Even if someone makes such a claim that they heard the voices in prayer and their prayer showed them that it is the word of God, why are these people seen to be mad?

Just hearing a voice in prayer does not mean the voice is God.

 

[antifreeze]

1) because god is infallible, and if god tells you what to do, you are infallible as well.
2) because if people believed you could talk to god directly, lots of priests would be out of a job.
3) because they are jealous due to the fact that god doesn't speak to them.
4) because god doesn't exist. i loved that response.

 

[water]

In respond to the thread question:

I think that some people simply confuse the singer and the song.
If you are a "bad" person, to these people, whatever you say is somehow less believable, less worthy, less meaningful.

How's that ... "if you can't win the argument -- screw up the context!"

I remember a line from the Book of Mormon: "For a man being evil cannot do that which is good." Once you're "evil" -- you're done, nobody will/should/could believe you ... Ah.

Once, at some meeting there was just a little chitchat about where to go to lunch. And a local Mormon said to me in a proud tone: "What have you got to say, you're not even a member!" Yeah, alright, to hell with arguments when you got such a gun.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The Spirit of Holiness, is NOT, I repeat, NOT an angel.

Remember then that Mohamed -peace be upon him- did speak to angels i.e, Gibriil and others, and that he has spoken to the Almighty.

That is blasphemy of the highest order, because God is NOT an angel and as the Spirit of Holiness is God, the Spirit of Holiness is NOT be an angel.

I did not say he is an angel. I said he would fall under the category of "angel" since you said that Gibriil (the angel Gabriel) and even the Creator himself would fall under that category.

Also, You believe that the holy spirit is God. You are blaspheming in my opinion. There is only one God, not three. Jesus -peace be upon him- is but a messenger and even in the contemporay versions he says that you should worship God, his God and yours.
And Remember I ain't no christian.

Jesus did not walk the earth with a "book in His hands" because He already knew what the Law entailed, He is God, remember?

He is not God. He is a good man. He delivered miracles by the grace of God.

Now let us return to our discussion. You say Jesus -peace be upon him- didn't walk the earth wth a book. I obviously agree. But that would mean that the bible is attributed to the Good man. He did not see it in his lifetime. It is what people have wrote about him later on. So even if it is accurate on the overall -which I don't believe it is- It is not a perfect replica, specially since there was not book with the prophet -peace be upon him- Now based upon the sentence you gave this would make the men that wrote the books and said that thet were the word of God, you know..condemned and heretics.

May peace be upon you.

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

That would imply that thinking to yourself is insanity since the voice is not heard through the "senses".

The entire implication in this debate is that the origin of the voices is external, and my key point that I stated was if you can’t tell the difference between internal and external then you are insane. I.e. if you think to yourself and believe what you hear comes from a god then you are insane.

Please pay attention.

Kat

 

[SkippingStones]

if you can’t tell the difference between internal and external then you are insane.

This is what confuses me when I attempt to analyze Christians. I find it hard to believe that somebody would base their life's beliefs around a bunch of paper unless they had some personal experience with some divine external being, ie. God. Most Christians do claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Since I have not had a similar experience(and not for lack of trying), I can only conclude that either something is wrong with me, or them. Since I consider myself very sane in this respect, I can conclude two things. Either they are making stuff up that they don't truely believe, or they are insane.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

The entire implication in this debate is that the origin of the voices is external, and my key point that I stated was if you can’t tell the difference between internal and external then you are insane. I.e. if you think to yourself and believe what you hear comes from a god then you are insane.

Please pay attention.

Kat

Are you implying that for God to speak with you, He has to be "external"? The whole point of a relationship with Him is for Him to be "internal". Remember God doesn't have a mouth to make sounds like you and I do, for He is Spirit.

As for not paying attention, I keep forgetting to take my ADHD pills..

 

[§outh§tar]

How is this thread tricky? It's a simple question.

Why is it heresy to say that you hear God tell you what to do? Biblical stories abound with individuals who've received messages from God and have acted upon the orders of God. So why do believers today look at people making similar claims (that God has spoken to them and ordered them to do something) and consider them mad or heretics? Why the hypocrisy of believing so fervently in people who made such claims in the past, but anyone who makes such a claim today you'd shun them and consider them insane?

Eh.. I guess you missed the entire post, so take a look at the 7th reply on the 1st page.

 

[§outh§tar]

This is what confuses me when I attempt to analyze Christians. I find it hard to believe that somebody would base their life's beliefs around a bunch of paper unless they had some personal experience with some divine external being, ie. God. Most Christians do claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Since I have not had a similar experience(and not for lack of trying), I can only conclude that either something is wrong with me, or them. Since I consider myself very sane in this respect, I can conclude two things. Either they are making stuff up that they don't truely believe, or they are insane.

I feel like I post this in every topic, but here it is:

Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[§outh§tar]

Remember then that Mohamed -peace be upon him- did speak to angels i.e, Gibriil and others, and that he has spoken to the Almighty.

I did not say he is an angel. I said he would fall under the category of "angel" since you said that Gibriil (the angel Gabriel) and even the Creator himself would fall under that category.

Perhaps I am somehow misunderstanding you, but if I said you fall under the "category" of human, wouldn't that make you human?

And where did I say Gabriel and the Creator fall under the "category" of angel, if there is such a thing?

Also, You believe that the holy spirit is God. You are blaspheming in my opinion. There is only one God, not three. Jesus -peace be upon him- is but a messenger and even in the contemporay versions he says that you should worship God, his God and yours.
And Remember I ain't no christian.

Blasphemy is not an opinion. Blasphemy is categorized as such from "external" sources, which would be God's Word. And how do you not understand the word "triune", triune God does NOT mean three Gods. Even the atheists understand this.

And Jesus already "admitted" to being God in the Bible so I don't know why you're calling Him a messenger. Oh yeah, you "ain't no Christian".

Now let us return to our discussion. You say Jesus -peace be upon him- didn't walk the earth wth a book. I obviously agree. But that would mean that the bible is attributed to the Good man. He did not see it in his lifetime. It is what people have wrote about him later on. So even if it is accurate on the overall -which I don't believe it is- It is not a perfect replica, specially since there was not book with the prophet -peace be upon him- Now based upon the sentence you gave this would make the men that wrote the books and said that thet were the word of God, you know..condemned and heretics.

As God, He is omniscient and hence, He knew the Bible before it was created, just as He knew you before you were born. Do you forget He said "Before Abraham, I am"?

May peace be upon you.

Remember, triune isn't three Gods. That is one of the great heresies you and I must combat.

 

[invert_nexus]

Blasphemy is not an opinion. Blasphemy is categorized as such from "external" sources, which would be God's Word.

C'mon, Southstar, Bruce is trying to be polite and adding in his opinion, but we all know that it is from the qu'ran that your beliefs are considered blasphemy. God is god, according to them, it is not the father, son, and holy spirit. To say it is is blasphemy to the muslim faith.

 

[okinrus]

This might clarify. The Qur'an's only mention of the words "holy spirit" is in reference to the angel Gabriel.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Perhaps I am somehow misunderstanding you, but if I said you fall under the "category" of human, wouldn't that make you human?

And where did I say Gabriel and the Creator fall under the "category" of angel, if there is such a thing?

You did not say "category" of angel. You said category "angel". Please stop now, and note the difference between the two. You thereby say that it is not realy an angel. I was lead to conclude that you mean tha Mohammed -peace be upon him- was not really spoken to by an angel. That will also mean that every suprahuman external source that spoke to the prophet -peace be upon him- falls under "angel". This means that what the angels that did speek to Mohamed peace be upon him- and God who also spoke with Mohammed -peace be upon him- fall under the "angel"category.

Blasphemy is not an opinion. Blasphemy is categorized as such from "external" sources, which would be God's Word.

That is exactly it. If you and I don't agree over the legitimacy of the bible we take recource to a common ground logic. That is why logic was put into use. And following logic I concluded that the bible is not the word of God and its writers and that its proponents are condemned. I propose you go back and read that part again.

And how do you not understand the word "triune", triune God does NOT mean three Gods.

I actually know what it means and i doesn't make sense to me Even if the atheists understand this.

And Jesus already "admitted" to being God in the Bible so I don't know why you're calling Him a messenger. Oh yeah, you "ain't no Christian".

So you do understand! :bugeye:

As God, He is omniscient and hence, He knew the Bible before it was created, just as He knew you before you were born. Do you forget He said "Before Abraham, I am"?

I really suggest you read my earlier posts and let them sink in a bit.

I have more than enough to say about Jesus -peace be upon him- being a prophet prophet. But I prefer to limit my self to the matter at hand.

I shall leave you with a nugget of wisdom though:

"...I am ascending to my God and your God"
John 20: 17

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thx guys.

 

[DeeCee]

You talk to god = prayer
god talks to you = schizophrenia.

If I write a letter to Santa is that a form of prayer or a form of madness?
Dee Cee

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

Are you implying that for God to speak with you, He has to be "external"? The whole point of a relationship with Him is for Him to be "internal". Remember God doesn't have a mouth to make sounds like you and I do, for He is Spirit.

Please define what you mean by external, internal, and spirit. Without some definitions everything you said seems like gibberish.

And please keep taking those pills. ;-)

Kat

 

[SkippingStones]

I feel like I post this in every topic, but here it is:
Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

God hasn't made it plain to me!

Are you implying that for God to speak with you, He has to be "external"? The whole point of a relationship with Him is for Him to be "internal". Remember God doesn't have a mouth to make sounds like you and I do, for He is Spirit.

What is me? How does one distinguish between oneself? I have thoughts but I can also recognise those as thoughts and as such, they aren't me, they are thoughts. But in doing that, I used more thought. All this seems quite internal to me, it's in my mind. So, is God in there somewhere too? Is God thought? If not, how can God speak to you coherently if not with thought? Is God then a feeling or emotion? You say this Holy Spirit fills you and you feel good, among other things. Sounds quasi-emotional to me. If that's the way it is then I can live with that, I like to feel that I am good, that I am loved.
But how then does the Bible fit in anywhere. Does God also exist in thought or even outside me, that he can whisper words to some ancient writer? Seems a round about way of communicating when he's already in my head, spiriting me what I should feel good about doing and what I shouldn't.

 

[StarOfEight]

South, quoting the Bible doesn't prove the obvious nature of God's existence any more than quoting the Communist Manifesto proves the obvious, inherent fallibility of capitalism. You're making a tired circular argument whereby the Bible is the word of God, and hence, true, and beecause the Bible is true, whatever it says about God is true. If you can prove God exists, and more to the point, if you can prove the Christian conception of God is correct, then the Bible has validity as a tool for assessing the truth of the Latter Day Saints and Islam. Since you can't, it'd doesn't.

Furthermore, the fact that the Bible warns against the possibility of future prophets is nothing but an attempt to preserve the Bible's monopoly of revelation.

 

[§outh§tar]

C'mon, Southstar, Bruce is trying to be polite and adding in his opinion, but we all know that it is from the qu'ran that your beliefs are considered blasphemy. God is god, according to them, it is not the father, son, and holy spirit. To say it is is blasphemy to the muslim faith.

This is specifically why I created the "What is a heretic?" thread to put this sort of difference to rest. Obviously only one person can be right and you'll never guess who..

 

[§outh§tar]

You did not say "category" of angel. You said category "angel". Please stop now, and note the difference between the two. You thereby say that it is not realy an angel.

Please point me to where in the thread where I said this because I have no recollection of such a thing, although I may be wrong.

That is exactly it. If you and I don't agree over the legitimacy of the bible we take recource to a common ground logic. That is why logic was put into use. And following logic I concluded that the bible is not the word of God and its writers and that its proponents are condemned. I propose you go back and read that part again.

I also showed how Mohammed's claims were heretic. Isn't God's word "common ground" enough?

I actually know what it means and i doesn't make sense to me Even if the atheists understand this.

It means God in three Persons. Perfect Trinity.

I really suggest you read my earlier posts and let them sink in a bit.

I have more than enough to say about Jesus -peace be upon him- being a prophet prophet. But I prefer to limit my self to the matter at hand.

I shall leave you with a nugget of wisdom though:

"...I am ascending to my God and your God"
John 20: 17

[/QUOTE]

Is that what you are going to base your argument on?


John 5
43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[4] ?
45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

Read this
John 8
4Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Matthew 18
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Peter's Confession of Christ

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[2] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[3] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[4] will not overcome it.[5] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[6] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[7] loosed in heaven."

There are many more, but I hope this will be enough to quell your confusion.

G'day.