"Who wrote the Bible?"

[path]

To path- u seem to know alot about islamd and the arabic language. I can almost guess that u studied for while. But u got all half-facts and one sided story. Let em point out:

1. The shahada is mainly to recognize god as the One and Only god, like the creator, and that Mohamed was his prophets (meaning the he was the one that deliver God's msg to us).

Right and as I said it shows that muhamed relegated himself to the most distinguished place in islam, which is contradictory to your earlier post claiming that muhamed didn't praise himself in the quran.

2. True, Mohamed married more than 4, he married (to my knowledge, i'm counting) around 9. And behind each wife there is a story. One was because her father died and so there was no1 to take care of her. Another (i think there was 2 of them like this) was beucase her husband died in the war and again there no1 to take care of them.

So there were no other muslim men around to take up the excess of single ladies or they already had thier share of 4 wives and only muhamed still had room in his imperial harem

There is one that was because since the muslim, conquered a Jews city (tribe) and took most ppl to arrest, he made a deal, he married the daughter of the leader and gave the ppl of the tribe a choice to become muslim or not. And on and on....

Hey one of the great things about captives they can't turn you down

3. Being the last prophets.....we muslim considered as God's word not mohamed.

Right you believe muhamed just delivered the book he didn't write it but based on all the benefits in the quran for muhamed alone I believe he wrote it. Also are you familiar with the mutazili school of islamic thought? In the 9th and 10th century it was the official school of thought for the caliphate and mutazili's do not consider the quran to be the uncreated word, so muslims didn't always believe that.

4.U no the real reason he was a political leader too, because in Islam there is no division (barrier) between the church and governement. Therefore he had to be a good political leader to even start leading hsi ppl.

As I said he made himself not only the last prophet but also the king (more proof in my eyes that he wrote the quran himself)

5. About the 20% wealth thing, i asked a shaik friend of mine, he explained that the 20% was not intended for Mohamed himself, but for the state since he was the leader and he had to run the governement too. It wasn't for him.

Right but since he was the head of state he could use the money however he wished it was his to spend.

And the rest of 80% was distributed to teh warriors. Now u said something about thieves, well that was the idea of war beack then, not only the muslim practiced, u kill an opponentm his belonging becomes urs.

My problem is the very thought that some supreme being put anything like this sanction down in writing I find to be absolutely ludicrous.

6. Last point-u misunderstood mohamed, he was not praised but the facts the he was a prophet (like all prophets behind him) he was acknowldge.

The shahada acknowledges him and him alone, it doesn't "there is no god but allah and moses and jesus and noah and muhamed are his prophets" does it? To become a muslim you must say
there is no god but allah and muhamed IS his prophet" And as I said he was made king and allowed to have more wives than anyone else just to name a few of the perks he got.

U think he was fav, well it is said that - he was not allowed to accept any kind of charity, donatio, and etc.. to himself.

Didn't we just say that 20% of all booty was his to use as he saw fit.

And he had to pray far more many times than a regular person (he prayed far more than 5 times). And there are alot more stuff that, i don't think, it shows that he wasn't praised or fav.

A small price to pay (keeping up the image of piousness)for all the power and fame he received through islam.

If u have any further question about islam, plz ask. Ty

Ditto

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

Umm, aite, let me try this on you-

It is said Mohamed came for the Muslims.
Jesus for the Christian.
Moses for the Jews and etc....

And that the reason we say "that Mohamed is his prophet", that is not praising him, that is just acknowlodging (acknowledge) that he is our prophet (that he was the one that deliver the quran and started islam). It is like saying that we giving him credit not praise. But look at also christian, dont they say "the father, the son, holy spirit" or something like that - three times acknolodging a prophet.

Now tell me this, as the head of the government, don;t he need the money (not for him self) to run a tribe (tribes), to make/buy weapon, no civilzation would survive without money. If u ask me, that was very wise asking for 20% since it all it needed to run hid ppl.

Now about being married to women, some of them left no choice-like the one that since they captured a tribe he (as leader, married the daughter of the leader). Let us say that there was alot ppl to take care of the others, why him? Let's just say that he was the best possible choice (fav choice - fav= as in prophet - not praised)

About the quran, explain me this, if he wrote it, then how did he knoq so much abotu the past, about Jesus, Moses, abraham and etc...How did he figure that all human being had a a diff fingerprint then everyone else in the world with (at that time) technology enough. Compare to it, 90% + have nothing to do with Mohamed and yet u said that he wrote the quran in order to praise himself? Give me a break.


Btw, what's ditto? i heard it alot and yet i dont know what it means. And from who did u learn about Islam?

Any further question?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

MaskHellRaiser: Umm, aite, let me try this on you-

It is said Mohamed came for the Muslims.
Jesus for the Christian.
Moses for the Jews and etc....
*************
M*W: Allow me to rephrase that:

Moses came for Egyptians for monotheistic Sun worship
Jesus came for Judaism to refute the Torah & bring enlightenment
Mohammed came to Islam to prove Judaism & Christianity false
*************
MHR: And that the reason we say "that Mohamed is his prophet", that is not praising him, that is just acknowlodging (acknowledge) that he is our prophet (that he was the one that deliver the quran and started islam). It is like saying that we giving him credit not praise. But look at also christian, dont they say "the father, the son, holy spirit" or something like that - three times acknolodging a prophet.

Now tell me this, as the head of the government, don;t he need the money (not for him self) to run a tribe (tribes), to make/buy weapon, no civilzation would survive without money. If u ask me, that was very wise asking for 20% since it all it needed to run hid ppl.

Now about being married to women, some of them left no choice-like the one that since they captured a tribe he (as leader, married the daughter of the leader). Let us say that there was alot ppl to take care of the others, why him? Let's just say that he was the best possible choice (fav choice - fav= as in prophet - not praised)

About the quran, explain me this, if he wrote it, then how did he knoq so much abotu the past, about Jesus, Moses, abraham and etc...How did he figure that all human being had a a diff fingerprint then everyone else in the world with (at that time) technology enough. Compare to it, 90% + have nothing to do with Mohamed and yet u said that he wrote the quran in order to praise himself? Give me a break.


Btw, what's ditto? i heard it alot and yet i dont know what it means. And from who did u learn about Islam?

Any further question?[/QUOTE]

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W: Somehow my post got submitted before I was finished:
*************
MHR: It is said Mohamed came for the Muslims.
Jesus for the Christian.
Moses for the Jews and etc....
*************
M*W: Allow me to rephrase that:

Moses came for Egyptians for monotheistic Sun worship
Jesus came for Judaism to refute the Torah & bring enlightenment
Mohammed came to Islam to prove Judaism & Christianity false
*************
MHR: Btw, what's ditto? i heard it alot and yet i dont know what it means.
*************
M*W: "Ditto" means the same as above. So if I wanted to copy the exact same thing on the line below, I would do this:

1. Have a good day.
2. Have a great day.
3. Have a " day.

 

[path]

Umm, aite, let me try this on you-

It is said Mohamed came for the Muslims.

I can buy that he came for the arabs since islam is an arab religion.

Jesus for the Christian.

No christians before he came so maybe the jews

Moses for the Jews and etc....

same as above but maybe MW has a point about the egyptians

And that the reason we say "that Mohamed is his prophet", that is not praising him, that is just acknowlodging (acknowledge) that he is our prophet (that he was the one that deliver the quran and started islam). It is like saying that we giving him credit not praise. But look at also christian, dont they say "the father, the son, holy spirit" or something like that - three times acknolodging a prophet.

Sure but jesus didn't write the bible so there is no claim against the bible glorifying jesus like you made about muhamed and the quran.

Now tell me this, as the head of the government, don;t he need the money (not for him self) to run a tribe (tribes), to make/buy weapon, no civilzation would survive without money. If u ask me, that was very wise asking for 20% since it all it needed to run hid ppl.

Of course he needed money to run his newly created government but as I said the spending of that money was his decision. Could not the chosen prophet of god find a better way to raise money than through violence and looting?

Now about being married to women, some of them left no choice-like the one that since they captured a tribe he (as leader, married the daughter of the leader). Let us say that there was alot ppl to take care of the others, why him? Let's just say that he was the best possible choice (fav choice - fav= as in prophet - not praised)

He had many generals who would have made a fine husband for a submissive or conquered tribes women

About the quran, explain me this, if he wrote it, then how did he knoq so much abotu the past, about Jesus, Moses, abraham and etc...How did he figure that all human being had a a diff fingerprint then everyone else in the world with (at that time) technology enough.

Dear dear MHR this is a bit silly isn't it? the past IS what we as human beings know about for certain. Even before writing people told tales of days gone by all the knowledge they had of metal working, pottery, building warfare etc etc was passed on to the next generation. Do you believe that no one discussed what had happened before them? that they had to reinvent fire and the wheel from scratch every generation? Mecca and medina survived on trade trading cites were also the hubs of information as well, anything that happened in egypt would have reached arabis with the first caravan from there.
Take a look at your finger, now look at ten of your friends fingers and see the difference with no more technology than your naked eye (same as in muhameds day). You are too easily impressed

Compare to it, 90% + have nothing to do with Mohamed and yet u said that he wrote the quran in order to praise himself? Give me a break.

Yet it does praise him but that alone wouldn't be enough he had to come up with a message that could be said to come from god so of course the main bulk of the quran is the supposed message of god. There is evidence of syrian missionaries coming to arabia before muhamed (I could link you some online material if you are interested) I personally believe that the quran is a conglomeration of biblical teachings and pre-islamic religious and social teachings.

Btw, what's ditto? i heard it alot and yet i dont know what it means. And from who did u learn about Islam?

Any further question?

Ditto means "the same here". I have been doing alot of reading about islam during the last few years, and the best online source site I have found is the university of southern california website

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

Like i said (in ur own words) "looting and violance" was really very common, it was basically the way of life. How can he express and convert other ppl without war. Roman as well as Jews at that time, killed and imprison ppl that were muslim, therefore war was the only way.

Now about the married thing, i beleive that he was the one that had married and not others for the best, i'm guessing if could b anyother way he would have done it.

The fingerprints was just an example. U want to give u others. It is mention that the earth was round. To that period (or region, not in europe), it was beleived that it was flat. The vision, wehn u look at anything, u actually looking upside-down <<< this was found out only after real technology was invented. That the earth rotated around the sun. About the colors, that a person when its looking at a color, its looking at the color that is reflected not absorb.....and many more.

The quran, in my opinion, does not praise the Mohamed a bit, it just recognize him as a prophet like any other prophet (Jesus, Moses, adam, Abraham, etc...)

The main stuff about the is about life itself, about teh beleivers and non-beleiver, abotu heaven and hell, about god and his creation, and some stories of prophets b4 him.

I just hope to put a good name to islam, some facts u got is just half-true.

 

[path]

Like i said (in ur own words) "looting and violance" was really very common, it was basically the way of life. How can he express and convert other ppl without war. Roman as well as Jews at that time, killed and imprison ppl that were muslim, therefore war was the only way.

He had allah (with his infinite power)on his side he should have been better than the others not worse. If you are bringing the truth you don't need a sword point to force it upon others, jesus didn't and it only took 343 years before christianity was adopted by rome (with no wars fought). But maybe allah is more impatient than god.

The fingerprints was just an example. U want to give u others. It is mention that the earth was round. To that period (or region, not in europe), it was beleived that it was flat.

Wrong greeks proved before even jesus came that the world was round

The vision, wehn u look at anything, u actually looking upside-down <<< this was found out only after real technology was invented. That the earth rotated around the sun.

Again an idea that was around before muhamed.

About the colors, that a person when its looking at a color, its looking at the color that is reflected not absorb.....and many more.

Why don't you try posting those exact verses, and many more

The quran, in my opinion, does not praise the Mohamed a bit, it just recognize him as a prophet like any other prophet (Jesus, Moses, adam, Abraham, etc...)

Have you been asleep during the last 2 pages I showed you several times how the quran made muhamed "the main man"

The main stuff about the is about life itself, about teh beleivers and non-beleiver, abotu heaven and hell, about god and his creation, and some stories of prophets b4 him.

I just hope to put a good name to islam, some facts u got is just half-true.

And you do put a good name to islam as does surrenderer but that doesn't make islam good or true by itself, and most claims you make are at best half true.

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

K u asked for some verses, here they r - with explanation too:

" Do not the rejecters see that the skies and earth were bound together then we disunited [or separated] them
(Fataq in Arabic) ..." (Koran 21:30)

In the above statement, the Koran gives an accurate description of the Big Bang, a theory of the origin of the universe widely accepted by scientists today.



"And the sky We built it with might, and we cause the expansion of it."
(Koran 51:47)

The fact that the Universe is not static but in a state of expansion was discovered by the American astronomer Edwin Hubble in the late 1920s, almost 1400 years after the Koran described it.


The Koran mentions that at a stage in its origin, the universe was "gaseous":

"And also, turned He to the sky when it was as smoke.."(Koran 41:11).

The Koran uses the Arabic word Dukhan, which stands for smoke. A perfect analogy for gas and particles in suspension and the gasses being hot.

Scientists have only very recently confirmed that the universe was indeed, at an early stage, a gaseous mass composed of hydrogen and some helium, a big mass of hot gasses. The Koran is more accurate in describing the gasses as "smoke" rather than the word "mist" or "fog" used frequently by scientists (Rees uses the word "fog" in his book)as the gasses were hot.


The Koran is aware of the phenomenon of "black holes", stars that have collapsed under their intense gravitational field, so that even light cannot escape. The Koran stated over 1200 years before the concept was stated by John Michell in 1767, and 1400 years before John Archibald Wheeler coined the term "black hole" in 1968:

I swear by the sky and (the phenomena of) Tariq.
And what will explain to you what Tariq is?
It is a star that pierces (or makes a hole). (Koran 86:1-3)

The Koran uses the word Thaqib in Arabic, a word that literally signifies a puncture or a minute hole

Martin Rees, states in Our Cosmic Habitat (2001)

"Space is already being punctured by the formation of black holes..."
(Rees, page 120)


"By the sky with all its weavings/knittings (huu-buk)" (Koran 51:7) .

The Koran accurately describes the sky as having "weavings", or being like a knitted fabric. Space having "weavings" ties in with String Theory in physics. It is envisioned by scientists that at the smallest Planck Scale (10^-35 m), spacetime is indeed "weaved" or "knitted".


I swear i can just go on and on, on every single detail about the unverse adn earth itself. Black hole, light, sun, moon, atom, cells (division)----stuff that it was never ever mention by any scientist onlty after a century. Can u deny it now? There is no possible way that Mohamed (who, u said wasnt able ot read and write) know all these. I g2g, if u want to continued thsi discussion, it will b my pleasure.

-Peace

 

[path]

K u asked for some verses, here they r - with explanation too:

" Do not the rejecters see that the skies and earth were bound together then we disunited [or separated] them
(Fataq in Arabic) ..." (Koran 21:30)

In the above statement, the Koran gives an accurate description of the Big Bang, a theory of the origin of the universe widely accepted by scientists today.





"And the sky We built it with might, and we cause the expansion of it."
(Koran 51:47)

The fact that the Universe is not static but in a state of expansion was discovered by the American astronomer Edwin Hubble in the late 1920s, almost 1400 years after the Koran described it.

Oh silly me I didn't see that reference to the big bang :bugeye: This is a joke no where does the quran mention the big bang theory. Again with the advanced technology of your naked eye you can look at the sky and see that it expands from one horizon to the other and is always there covering over us. Stop believing what people tell you and use your brain.

The Koran mentions that at a stage in its origin, the universe was "gaseous":

"And also, turned He to the sky when it was as smoke.."(Koran 41:11).

The Koran uses the Arabic word Dukhan, which stands for smoke. A perfect analogy for gas and particles in suspension and the gasses being hot.

Again pretend you don't know that clouds are made up of evaporated water, descibe what clouds look like. No where in the quran does it mention gases in suspension or galaxys or big bangs etc etc.

Scientists have only very recently confirmed that the universe was indeed, at an early stage, a gaseous mass composed of hydrogen and some helium, a big mass of hot gasses. The Koran is more accurate in describing the gasses as "smoke" rather than the word "mist" or "fog" used frequently by scientists (Rees uses the word "fog" in his book)as the gasses were hot.


The Koran is aware of the phenomenon of "black holes", stars that have collapsed under their intense gravitational field, so that even light cannot escape. The Koran stated over 1200 years before the concept was stated by John Michell in 1767, and 1400 years before John Archibald Wheeler coined the term "black hole" in 1968:

I swear by the sky and (the phenomena of) Tariq.
And what will explain to you what Tariq is?
It is a star that pierces (or makes a hole). (Koran 86:1-3)

The Koran uses the word Thaqib in Arabic, a word that literally signifies a puncture or a minute hole


Martin Rees, states in Our Cosmic Habitat (2001)

"Space is already being punctured by the formation of black holes..."
(Rees, page 120)


"By the sky with all its weavings/knittings (huu-buk)" (Koran 51:7) .

The sky has also been described as a tapestry in medieval europe it is simply a descriptive word there is no reference to string theory physics in the quran any verse said to be describing string theory physics is simply wishful thinking and active imagination.

The Koran accurately describes the sky as having "weavings", or being like a knitted fabric. Space having "weavings" ties in with String Theory in physics. It is envisioned by scientists that at the smallest Planck Scale (10^-35 m), spacetime is indeed "weaved" or "knitted".


I swear i can just go on and on, on every single detail about the unverse adn earth itself. Black hole, light, sun, moon, atom, cells (division)----stuff that it was never ever mention by any scientist onlty after a century. Can u deny it now? There is no possible way that Mohamed (who, u said wasnt able ot read and write) know all these. I g2g, if u want to continued thsi discussion, it will b my pleasure.

-Peace

This is actually tiresome and has already been dealt with thourougly in the trhead titled "the quran and science" read it it is some 18 pages long just do a search for the thread. Enjoy

 

[one_raven]

I thought Leonard Cohen was the little Jew who wrote the bible.