"Who wrote the Bible?"

[Medicine*Woman]

David F.: Since the biblical Moses was born around 1600BC and Akhenaten was born around 1370BC, how can these two men, separated by 2-3 centuries, be one and the same?
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M*W: David, your dates have already been refuted. You are mistaking the Moses of the OT for Pharaoh Ahmosis who was born circa 1600 BC, who was the first pharaoh of the 18th dynasty. You obviously have not done your homework, because you keep insisting your wrongly posted dates are correct, and they're not!
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David F.: My sources tell me that Akhenaten, to whom the Amarna letters were written, lived during the time of King Saul and King David, much later than the biblical Moses. Saul (the Lion) and David and Beniah and Joab, and even David's father Jessie are all mentioned in the letters to Akhenaten.
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M*W: Face it, your sources are incorrect!

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/osman_moses.php

"David was born in Bethlehem, as son of the shepherd Jesse, and grandson of Boaz and Ruth. There are no records of his age at no point, but it appears likely that he was born between 1040 and 1030 BCE."

http://i-cias.com.e.o/david.htm

"3000 years ago, the ancient kingdom of Israel was ruled by a king called David."

http://www.rickriordan.com/king_david.htm

"After winning a war against the followers of Saul's son, David was chosen as ruler by all the tribes of Israel. His reign began in 1000 BC."

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=52
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M*W: Very little information, if any, has been recorded about King David's birth, but he did not live in Moses' or Akhenaten's time. David was born circa 1040 BC. Moses of the Torah and Exodus fame was born circa 1370 BC, so Moses lived about 330 years before David. What are your sources for your incorrect dates?

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

Your proof, please.

lol, i founded that on a random site i was visiting abotu religions. But a friend told u that u can find the source from bible.com facts Q/A or something like that... However as u posted on ur last post, i do respect that u r an atheist and everything, but tell me this, what the purpose if ur living? What and why u were created? Or u just simply here by accident and that eveything is perfect (the human body and etc...) all by accident and luck.....well?

 

[terpinator72]

The bible was written by many authors.... See documentary hypothesis... There is 4 different authors for just the pentatuch..

 

[marv]

lol, i founded that on a random site i was visiting abotu religions. But a friend told u that u can find the source from bible.com facts Q/A or something like that...

The Bible, while containing a lot of good advice and guidance for life, is not an historically accurate document.

...tell me this, what the purpose if ur living? What and why u were created? Or u just simply here by accident and that eveything is perfect (the human body and etc...) all by accident and luck.....well?

The only purpose to my life is what I give it; no more and no less. And I wasn't "created", nor did I come about by "accident". It was serendipity and my parents. As to the human body being perfect, ask someone with a birth defect. And you might also ask what purpose your appendix serves.

 

[path]

but tell me this, what the purpose if ur living? What and why u were created? Or u just simply here by accident and that eveything is perfect (the human body and etc...) all by accident and luck.....well?

Our purpose here like every other living organism is reproduction to carry our species to the next generation. Beyond that as Marv said the meaning in our lives is what we make of it. It took several billion years for us to be here as we are today hardly an accident and we are not perfect.

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

No, what i meant was that, the human body is perfect regarless with birtheffect, which in fact are the parents fault, may it was a gene, cross same-blood (relatives) and etc...

It took a billions of year for teh universe and sun to be formed but not humans, but what i was trying to say is that...look around u, the creations of god is all perfect, and yet u assume that there is no god and that all it hapen by accident (meaning that the earth was accidently the only planet in out solar system to have atmosphere, and contain breathable air, water, and all such wonderfullness of life). Have u study biology into deltails and relized how the human brain works, it's just unbeleivable. Or how the air is cyle. I no there r many things in life that we can't explain, therefore we just assume it's god work, but there r things in life which the answer is God.

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

BTW, when u earlier posted that why shoudl we beleive in prophets who can/did write anything they wished for, so the ppl beleive them. Well Prophet mohamed didn't write anything to praise himself but to all to praise God and to recognize him as his messenger. Also the Quran contained facts that only after technology was able to confirn it, example?
The quran says that every single person on earth, has a different mark on their hands (in other words fingerprints) and look when the Quran was written around 600 AC and only after soem thousand of year could scholars understand and confirm what it meant.

 

[path]

No, what i meant was that, the human body is perfect regarless with birtheffect, which in fact are the parents fault, may it was a gene, cross same-blood (relatives) and etc...

It took a billions of year for teh universe and sun to be formed but not humans,

We are a current end product of everything that has gone before us therefore it did in fact take billions of years for us to arrive at this stage.

but what i was trying to say is that...look around u, the creations of god is all perfect, and yet u assume that there is no god and that all it hapen by accident (meaning that the earth was accidently the only planet in out solar system to have atmosphere, and contain breathable air, water, and all such wonderfullness of life).

The earth is not the only planet with an atmosphere, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn uranus all definately have atmospheres, The earth is the only planet in our solar system that has the correct ingredients for our particular form of life to survive, other types of life may well exist in those other atmospheres. Again a planet having an atmosphere is obviously not some sort of rare accident.

Have u study biology into deltails and relized how the human brain works, it's just unbeleivable. Or how the air is cyle. I no there r many things in life that we can't explain, therefore we just assume it's god work, but there r things in life which the answer is God.

That is the answer you fall back upon, "I can't explain this therefore it must be god". It doesn't make it any more valid than any other explaination. In ancient times there were many more things which mankind could not explain, electricity, magnetism, earthquakes, rain, tornados etc etc all were simply lumped into the "must be god" category and almost all of which we now understand the mechanics of today.

 

[path]

BTW, when u earlier posted that why shoudl we beleive in prophets who can/did write anything they wished for, so the ppl beleive them. Well Prophet mohamed didn't write anything to praise himself but to all to praise God and to recognize him as his messenger. Also the Quran contained facts that only after technology was able to confirn it, example?
The quran says that every single person on earth, has a different mark on their hands (in other words fingerprints) and look when the Quran was written around 600 AC and only after soem thousand of year could scholars understand and confirm what it meant.

Rubbish muhammed did indeed praise himself he even went so far as to close the door on even the possibility that people could follow the words of any future prophet by claiming that he was the last one. He also claimed that the quran was not simply a religious book it was also a political guide and the leader of the faithful ie muhamed himself was not just a spiritual leader but a political leader. He also claimed that his followers could marry up to 4 women while he himself was allowed to marry many more (way to go mo ) Also his followers had to give him 20% of the loot they gathered from war and raids (shrewd dude) I could go on and on the quran is all about muhamed giving himself the sweetest deal possible.

The mark on the hand thing shows what exactly? go on explain and I'll take you for a ride down a bumpy road

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

U misuderstood me, the type of atmosphere on earth is unique as well as diff from all the others planets. Venus? the moment u step there u b pushed to the ground and smahed to pieces. Jupiter and Saturn? Well, u can't even step there since its a gaseos palnet. Do the other planets have the atmosphere to protect from the sun's ray.

I never said "I can't explain this therefore it must be god", i meant that even we all the technoly we have, there is a point were we define its god's work. You can't see a single fault in earth's cycle, just as i said everything was planned perfect. It couldn't b just an accident that we befolded here?

K let me convince u this way. Since u r an atheist, u beleive in evolution right? so who place the first bacteria that evolved to a fish > animals> then us. WHo created matter in the first place? That the line were we can't go on, even with the best resoruces and technology we going to have.

 

[path]

U misuderstood me, the type of atmosphere on earth is unique as well as diff from all the others planets. Venus? the moment u step there u b pushed to the ground and smahed to pieces. Jupiter and Saturn? Well, u can't even step there since its a gaseos palnet. Do the other planets have the atmosphere to protect from the sun's ray.

As I said only the earth has an atmosphere that supports our particular form of life that doesn't mean that other forms of life that can exist in those other atmospheres don't or can't exist.

I never said "I can't explain this therefore it must be god", i meant that even we all the technoly we have, there is a point were we define its god's work.

No you and theists define it as gods work not me

You can't see a single fault in earth's cycle, just as i said everything was planned perfect. It couldn't b just an accident that we befolded here?

I don't believe it was planned things follow certain scientific rules but it is too long to sit here and explain to you.

K let me convince u this way. Since u r an atheist, u beleive in evolution right? so who place the first bacteria that evolved to a fish > animals> then us. WHo created matter in the first place? That the line were we can't go on, even with the best resoruces and technology we going to have.

I don't think anyone created the first bacteria at best the first bacteria itself was a huge evolutionary leap from earlier proteins and simpler single celled organisms. Just because I don't have an exact answer doesn't mean I am going to fall back onto the mysterious god did it explaination. We will know eventually you and I will probably be dead and gone but one day we will know just as we now know the causes behind those other phenomena I noted earlier.

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

K, i will just give up talking to prove that there is a God, we will just go on and on....

Now about prophets mohamed, he said we are allowed to marry more than 4 wives as long as one treats all of them the same. And the reason he married more than 4 was because of religious reason. BAck then a woman couldn't not change religion unless she was married to a diff religious person, and so Prophet mohamed did what he had to do to convert not only the wife but the whole family.
Now when he claimed to be the last prophet, it is said that it was God that said that he was a prophet, well how would u like seeing 100 prophets claiming that they're prophets. It was for the best.
And the quran is a political guide and the leader of the faithful and muhamed himself was not just a spiritual leader but a political leader. << u quoted and its true and..? A prophet have to know hwo to lead its people through any situation, weather politically socially or w/e.
Ya 20% was for him and the rest to the ppl...what's wrong with that. But actually he didnt ask for it. His ppl actually offered to him for leading them to victory. He was a great general, just look at the amount of land they won. And defeating the Roman and the Jews who lived there too.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

terpinator72: There is 4 different authors for just the pentatuch..
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M*W: Name them, please.

 

[path]

K, i will just give up talking to prove that there is a God, we will just go on and on....

Now about prophets mohamed, he said we are allowed to marry more than 4 wives as long as one treats all of them the same. And the reason he married more than 4 was because of religious reason. BAck then a woman couldn't not change religion unless she was married to a diff religious person, and so Prophet mohamed did what he had to do to convert not only the wife but the whole family.

If you read you will find that many or most of his wives were already muslim

Now when he claimed to be the last prophet, it is said that it was God that said that he was a prophet, well how would u like seeing 100 prophets claiming that they're prophets. It was for the best.

that is the beauty of it he presented the quran as the word of god and said look here god himself said I am he last prophet (good deal for mo) It was for the best only if there were not coming any future prophets but you as a believer have only muhameds word (he was a human being after all) that no more would come.

And the quran is a political guide and the leader of the faithful and muhamed himself was not just a spiritual leader but a political leader. << u quoted and its true and..? A prophet have to know hwo to lead its people through any situation, weather politically socially or w/e.

A prophet has to know how to guide his followers to become better people he doesn't need to politically control them. Morality has to be a decision that an individual chooses there is no way to force soemone to be moral, at best you can make people pretend to be moral.

Ya 20% was for him and the rest to the ppl...what's wrong with that.

Does someone who is really representing god on earth need material wealth???
The rest wasn't to the people it was to the ones who had actually gone out, and killed and stolen other peoples' valuables ie thieves

But actually he didnt ask for it.

Sorry but it is in the quran in black and white.

His ppl actually offered to him for leading them to victory. He was a great general, just look at the amount of land they won. And defeating the Roman and the Jews who lived there too.

Yeah great for the muslims but what about the romans and the jews? I think we could draw many parallels with what is happening in iraq and I am sure that most muslims don't like that one bit.

Also if you still think muhamed denied himself a special place in the quran just say the shahada

 

[marv]

I've added MaskHellRaiser to my ignore list because his posts are so garbled so I'm not following him. But from the gist of the posts, I think The Skeptics Annotated Qur'an is worth looking at.

 

[David F.]

The bible was written by many authors.... See documentary hypothesis... There is 4 different authors for just the pentatuch..

No, there were not for different authors for the Pentatuch. There is speculation that, because there are three different forms of God's name used in Genesis, that there were four different authors (three authors and a redactor). One name is 'LHYM, one is YHVH and the third is a combination YHVH 'LHYM.

'LHYM is a title, like President.

YHVH is a name, like Bush.​

This argument would be akin to saying that if someone wrote a biography of the American President and sometimes called him the President and sometimes called him Bush and yet in other places called him President Bush, that sometime later some document expert could pick up the book and decided the biography must then be written by four different authors, three who exclusively used a single name and a redactor to put them all together. The truth of course is that all forms of the name are valid and are occasionally used by everyone. The argument is Hogwash.

 

[David F.]

David F.: Since the biblical Moses was born around 1600BC and Akhenaten was born around 1370BC, how can these two men, separated by 2-3 centuries, be one and the same?
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M*W: David, your dates have already been refuted. You are mistaking the Moses of the OT for Pharaoh Ahmosis who was born circa 1600 BC, who was the first pharaoh of the 18th dynasty. You obviously have not done your homework, because you keep insisting your wrongly posted dates are correct, and they're not!
*************
David F.: My sources tell me that Akhenaten, to whom the Amarna letters were written, lived during the time of King Saul and King David, much later than the biblical Moses. Saul (the Lion) and David and Beniah and Joab, and even David's father Jessie are all mentioned in the letters to Akhenaten.
*************
M*W: Face it, your sources are incorrect!

http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/osman_moses.php

"David was born in Bethlehem, as son of the shepherd Jesse, and grandson of Boaz and Ruth. There are no records of his age at no point, but it appears likely that he was born between 1040 and 1030 BCE."

http://i-cias.com.e.o/david.htm

"3000 years ago, the ancient kingdom of Israel was ruled by a king called David."

http://www.rickriordan.com/king_david.htm

"After winning a war against the followers of Saul's son, David was chosen as ruler by all the tribes of Israel. His reign began in 1000 BC."

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=52
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M*W: Very little information, if any, has been recorded about King David's birth, but he did not live in Moses' or Akhenaten's time. David was born circa 1040 BC. Moses of the Torah and Exodus fame was born circa 1370 BC, so Moses lived about 330 years before David. What are your sources for your incorrect dates?

Really, the bible is quite specific that the Exodus was 480 years prior to the dedication of Solomon's temple which was 60 years after the beginning of the reign of Solomon's father, David. Moses was born 80 years prior to the Exodus so the time frame specifically given in the bible would be about 500 years between the birth of Moses and the beginning of King David's reign. David's reign began about 1050-1075BC which places Moses in the 1600BC range.

As I have already explained several times, your dates are wrong because they use the bible. Yes, I said they use the bible. Your dates are based upon the mistaken identification of Rameses II as the Pharoah of the Exodus. There is absolutely no archeological evidence to support this claim yet the dates are still in common use? The truth is that there is no firm way to establish the date of Akhenaten. The bible is the only continuous historical document which goes back further than 667BC. Prior to this date, the dates are all reginal (adding up the reigns of the kings/pharoahs) and, in the case of Egypt, there are whole centuries where there is complete absense of information. Egyptology has a serious problem - they are quite literally guessing in the dark. Their only measuring stick, the bible, has been shown to be completely bogus where Egyptology is concerned.

Go check for yourself, verify the method of dating the time of Akhenaten. Be sure to remember that if Akhenaten is based upon the dates of other Pharoahs then you need to verify the dates of those Pharoahs.

 

[marv]

Too often history is invented. And the further back we go, the more ingenius the inventions become. To say that so-and-so was born in 1300BC and base it on a document of unknown authorship is the reason that the study of history is not in the science department. For accuracy, archeology is the best we can do, and even that is often misintrepreted.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

David F.: Really, the bible is quite specific that the Exodus was 480 years prior to the dedication of Solomon's temple which was 60 years after the beginning of the reign of Solomon's father, David. Moses was born 80 years prior to the Exodus so the time frame specifically given in the bible would be about 500 years between the birth of Moses and the beginning of King David's reign. David's reign began about 1050-1075BC which places Moses in the 1600BC range.
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M*W: Well, that's the problem -- it was written in the bible. Moses was fairly young when he fled, certainly not 80 years old! David, it appears that you are either misinterpreting the bible, or most likely, it has errors. How on Earth can David reign at around 1050 BC and Moses born in the 1600 BC range if they lived at the same time?
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David F.: As I have already explained several times, your dates are wrong because they use the bible. Yes, I said they use the bible.
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M*W: I DO NOT use the bible as a reference.
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David F.: Your dates are based upon the mistaken identification of Rameses II as the Pharoah of the Exodus. There is absolutely no archeological evidence to support this claim yet the dates are still in common use?
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M*W: I DO NOT use Ramses II as the pharaoh of the Exodus! Where did you get that? Ramses II reigned from 1290 BC-1224 BC. I have not researched his birth/date death.
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David F.: The truth is that there is no firm way to establish the date of Akhenaten.
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M*W: Egyptologists, scientists and archeologists have established the dates of Akhenaten, and these are the references I use.
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David F.: The bible is the only continuous historical document which goes back further than 667BC. Prior to this date, the dates are all reginal (adding up the reigns of the kings/pharoahs) and, in the case of Egypt, there are whole centuries where there is complete absense of information. Egyptology has a serious problem - they are quite literally guessing in the dark. Their only measuring stick, the bible, has been shown to be completely bogus where Egyptology is concerned.
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M*W: I would agree with you here.
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David F.: Go check for yourself, verify the method of dating the time of Akhenaten. Be sure to remember that if Akhenaten is based upon the dates of other Pharoahs then you need to verify the dates of those Pharoahs.
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M*W: I've already checked and rechecked, and I will stand by my originally posted dates. I've already listed the bibliography plus other websites to confirm these dates.

David, I don't care what you believe to be true. You have your sources and I have mine. What really irritates me with your refusal to research the dates is that you are confusing others on this forum with your "dates" concerning Moses as well as "evolution."

 

[MaskHellRaiser]

To marv- i don't give a F that u added my to the ignore list, boohoo - keep that to ur self.

To path- u seem to know alot about islamd and the arabic language. I can almost guess that u studied for while. But u got all half-facts and one sided story. Let em point out:

1. The shahada is mainly to recognize god as the One and Only god, like the creator, and that Mohamed was his prophets (meaning the he was the one that deliver God's msg to us).

2. True, Mohamed married more than 4, he married (to my knowledge, i'm counting) around 9. And behind each wife there is a story. One was because her father died and so there was no1 to take care of her. Another (i think there was 2 of them like this) was beucase her husband died in the war and again there no1 to take care of them. There is one that was because since the muslim, conquered a Jews city (tribe) and took most ppl to arrest, he made a deal, he married the daughter of the leader and gave the ppl of the tribe a choice to become muslim or not. And on and on....

3. Being the last prophets.....we muslim considered as God's word not mohamed.

4.U no the real reason he was a political leader too, because in Islam there is no division (barrier) between the church and governement. Therefore he had to be a good political leader to even start leading hsi ppl.

5. About the 20% wealth thing, i asked a shaik friend of mine, he explained that the 20% was not intended for Mohamed himself, but for the state since he was the leader and he had to run the governement too. It wasn't for him. And the rest of 80% was distributed to teh warriors. Now u said something about thieves, well that was the idea of war beack then, not only the muslim practiced, u kill an opponentm his belonging becomes urs.

6. Last point-u misunderstood mohamed, he was not praised but the facts the he was a prophet (like all prophets behind him) he was acknowldge. U think he was fav, well it is said that - he was not allowed to accept any kind of charity, donatio, and etc.. to himself. And he had to pray far more many times than a regular person (he prayed far more than 5 times). And there are alot more stuff that, i don't think, it shows that he wasn't praised or fav.

If u have any further question about islam, plz ask. Ty