Apparently you cannot even make a single argument in defense of your position. You simply move the goal posts and when that fails resort to unfounded and unsupported ad hominems.
Who, other than a man, ever put voice to the will of God?
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
Apparently you cannot even make a single argument in defense of your position. You simply move the goal posts and when that fails resort to unfounded and unsupported ad hominems.
Jesus, you are really going to make me do this. Lack of the essential quality of "free will" means all events are preordained to happen in a specific way. All particles have a specific vector and speed, and all interactions with the other particles are predicted by rational mathematical rules. Thus, theoretically, one could predict how everything will occur, and create a perfect model of this universe.
Quantum indeterminacy requires stochastic processes. So while it is basically true that a particle can be measured to have a specific momentum, you have left out the consequence of it having a reciprocally indefinite position which makes interactions indeterminate. So you cannot perfectly predict the universe, nor rule out freewill,...nor apparently accurately depict the science.
Care to try again?
Care to try again?
No! You got it exactly right, all interactions are indeterminate, therefore we must have free will. The mind's inexact events influence the course of future events, thus illustrating that anything can happen at any time. God doesn't know the future. If he started the Big Bang, he could not have known how it would turn out, thus God is not omniscient.
So you've abandoned your argument against the freedom of action necessary to a meaningful freewill, only to argue against the omniscience of a god. A new non sequitur with every post, huh?
A god's omniscience would logically work just like its will. If it has granted meaningful freewill by surrendering that much of its own freedom of action, then it could likewise grant cognizance of itself. Like freewill, the collective cognizance could be omniscient.
There is no requirement of omniscience to be cognizant of all time at once, only that it be cognizant of everything at any given time. Only specific dogmas try to put such constraint on omniscience, as logic does not. So which dogma are you claiming to ascribe to?
A god's omniscience would logically work just like its will. If it has granted meaningful freewill by surrendering that much of its own freedom of action, then it could likewise grant cognizance of itself. Like freewill, the collective cognizance could be omniscient.
There is no requirement of omniscience to be cognizant of all time at once, only that it be cognizant of everything at any given time. Only specific dogmas try to put such constraint on omniscience, as logic does not. So which dogma are you claiming to ascribe to?
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
I was disappointed in seeing Spidergoat not justify his answer.
It is quite correct.
Omnipotent includes the attribute of infinite persuasion.
If I or God in discourse with you, help you decide which direction to go to, have we interfered with your free will to go the other way.
No.
We have only pointed out attributes to each choice and you used your free will to decide on which way to go.
Regards
DL
No, I have not abandoned it at all. I'm pointing out that the concept of free will has to do with whether the universe is deterministic or not. It doesn't have anything to do with God or anyone else restraining our actions.
I must say, that man has been the only source of God is man suspiciously suggest that this god is a part of man's imagination.
The "punishment" was just the natural consequence of being able to judge right from wrong, not a penalization per se. This ability would probably only be a degree of self-awareness that facilitates a subjective value judgment. (Of course, this ability would allows us to view it as a punishment, whether it was or not, and man wrote the Bible.) Unless we imagine things like a fish "thinking" it evil to be eaten by a bear, and perhaps pitying its own lot in life.
This sort of subjective value judgment is how we judge our own comparable "toil". Nothing would really change other than our awareness.
As I've said, "infinite persuasion" doesn't allow for freewill. A meaningful choice does not exist when faced with completely incontrovertible proof, and without a meaningful choice there is no meaningful freewill.
interfere : to interpose in a way that hinders or impedes : come into collision or be in opposition - merriam-webster
Anyone convinced has freely made a meaningful choice, just will more data. There is no interference where the will is never forced or inhibited in the making of a choice.
Last edited:
So which is it? Do you think freewill exists? What about meaningful freewill? If so, what was the argument about freedom of action all about? Just a diversion?
Who said anything about "restraining our actions"? Yet another non sequitur.
I've never said freewill requires a god, only that freewill is not logically incompatible with the existence of a god with the usually assumed attributes.
If God knows the future then there is no free will. It may seem so, but nothing we do would be spontaneous or original, all actions are simply going through the formality of occurring as if it was being unrolled from a script.
I don't think there is a God at all, but I could conceive of one that allowed free will while at the same time interfering to guide events not unlike a human king.
I don't think there is a God at all, but I could conceive of one that allowed free will while at the same time interfering to guide events not unlike a human king.
An 'Ah Ha' (moment) . . . . ref. your last sentence . . . indeed, if God does NOT know the future (not omniscient ) . . . . THAT may precisely be our "purpose" . . . IMO . . . "we" may have (been) evolved so that God can view 'his creation(s)' via OUR senses . . . . Assuming that God exists and is 'supernatural' (or otherwse undetectible by 'us' within the material universe) and is 'aware' (perhaps holgraphically?) of his actions . . . then . . . why would 'He' (no actual gender implied, just convention) NOT ALSO devise (or evolve) a process or mechanism by which He could materially sense (thru OUR senses) His creations?
As I've already said:
Syne said:
There is no quantitative difference between an omniscience that knows everything throughout time all at once and one that knows everything in each moment but is eternal. In the end, the total known will be the same in both cases. So omniscience doesn't logically necessitate prediction.
For meaningful freewill to exist only agents already existing within the system can influence the system, otherwise causation is violated. Since a god is usually considered to exist outside of the physical reality, it is not valid to compare it to a "human king" which definitely exists within the system.
A. I believe the common definition of omniscience means knowing everything about everything, past present and future. If one cannot predict the future, then there is a gap in knowledge. But the scenario you outlined would be compatible with free will and a somewhat diminished god as compared to that which is commonly believed.
B. I'm only speculating on possible gods, as are you.
B. I'm only speculating on possible gods, as are you.
A. No, you are conflating specific dogmas such as predestination and atemporality with omniscience.
S is omniscient =[sub]df[/sub][equal to the following by definition] for every proposition p, if p is true then S knows p. - SEP
A god would have to be dogmatically defined as existing outside of time (atemporal) for the future to possess a definite truth value. Otherwise, if there is no value to be known, then it is not a shortcoming of omniscience to be unaware of a future not yet determined.
Do you wish to make an argument for a timeless god? If so, could you provide scriptural references? Or perhaps you'd rather argue the possibility of time travel and the subsequent necessity for a predetermined future and a completely deterministic universe?
B. You're speculating, I'm making logically sound statements.
I thought omni meant everything, I could be mistaken. Most religious people here argue that God isn't subject to time. I don't think there is a rational argument for any God, much less a timeless one.
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
That is that joke right ? Whose on 3rd base
By being part of the dream weave you call your life . You are a subject of the dream weave . There is no free will . You are a subject of the weave of time . You dictate to others and they dictate to you . You submit to others and others submit to you . It is a dance of back and forth, in and out . Rise and fall of the tides so to speak . Me I am making a run for it . You got to know what to say to get out is the thing . To escape your conditioned life is very hard thing to do . Just when I finally fee like I got free will something happens to prove I don't . That thought I had that I thought was my own , well some nimrod was already there before me . You see lack of free will in that . Some one has already done it . What ever you are thinking right now from Me saying that someone else already had your thoughts . You are copying the same thought pattern as another human thought when they had the same exposure to information . Now we don't all think the same at the same time but there will be plenty of copy thoughts that were exactly like you thought . Cause we are copies of the past . That is how humans learn . By coping . You are a copy of what you learn and your genetic make up which is a copy of your parents D.N.A. sequencing . Your a copy . Copy that copy Cat. Now you might be ingenious and help make a leap forward by rearrangement of what you learn and are by being a copy of your parents D.N.a. yet still it is existing information and if your what ever works it still existed before you came up with it cause it works . Just because it has not materialized yet does not mean it does not exist is the thing. If we got a probability of it and it has not happened but the probability says it will happen this many times out of this many then there is a more than likely chance it will happen . Well in human endeavors that means all that you are and all that you know lead to the thing you rearranged . Its time came by precise increments of information flow . If you didn't do it don't fool your self . Every body is replaceable and another copy of you would be right there to put it all together. Hell I am Man putting voice to God and I am subject to the same law of copy cating around . Someone would step up and take my place . Not to likely as I have determined , well there is no such thing as free will and you are going to do what you must do right wrong or indifferent.
Except the "prince of the air "
Bible trivia time
The Prince of the air that works on the sons of disobedience.
At first you might think that is the devil and he gonna get you and throw you in the pit of fire . Na I do not agree with that now .
I think I do understand that more . The power of persuasion by hypnotic suggestions comes to mind . My new found power fully complete and still trying to understand the ramifications of ever sense I got back from Haiti .
Yeah I think I perfected it or got better at it from observing Haitians . They are very keen when it comes to self awareness. You can get there attention a lot easier than white folks . More in touch with there instincts . If I scratch on a wall with my finger the response time at identifying the scratching by visual means or any other identifying methods on any other type test in response the Haitians respond much faster. Like the humming Nuns in Port-Au-Prince the black girls were way all out front getting there ya yas way before the white girls . I had to extra considerate on delivery for the Mother Superior of the bunch. Yeah single her out for a while while the other white girls didn't respond at all until she made the first move to respond . Yet the black girls were all on that before any special attention was given the Mother Superior of the bunch . You guys don't want to know what I whispered . Our I should say I don't kiss and tell except it had to do with there Christ meeting there bride . I made the superior the superior bride , That is what got her . I stroked her Attention Whoring and made her the top bride of Christ . Well the rest fell right into line after that . She like a centennial cow elk notified the rest of the heard it was o.k. to get your ya yas on . Christ was in the room so to speak . I used that too. I wonder what Jesus would think if he knew I used his name like that . As he said him self " Who ever uses my name and is with us is with us and part of us . Well He didn't say it just like that but it was real close to the same meaning . It was the cast out demons in his name verse . So I cast out some demons in those Nuns . There anguished thoughts of never having a sexual experience like Mother Mary . They Had one and Mikey gave it to them . Better Than Jesus . Jesus would not even be able to think it much less deliver on the promise of being like a husband. You really think he could say cum and have a bunch of Nuns Cum . I don't think so . It would make the panzy feel dirty . Not Me I am proud of my self for giving the Nuns a little "pleasure" in there life . Pleasure if you did not know leads to Happiness and Joy idiots
Yes, omniscient means all-knowing, but since what can possibly be known, as in have some truth value, has limitations itself, omniscience can only be considered a "maximal knowledge". "All" does not imply "infinite" unless there is an actual infinity of truth valued data. Not even an omniscient god could know what a square circle is because this is contradictory by definition. Likewise, if our universe is indeterministic, in part or entirely, then there exists no exact future to be known ahead of time. It is logically impossible to know something that does not exist.
Most religious people who argue in favor of a god are ill-equipped to do so, and an atemporal/timeless god is not supported by the Bible.