Who is the most spiritually advanced member of Sciforums?

Dywyddyr said:
Really? What delusion is required to open a packet of cornflakes?
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The delusion that what one is seeing is an object 'out there'. I mean, if one goes by the current neurophysiological models where in fact we are really contructing an internal virtual model of what is out there, the latter not being something 'we' see.

Then there are probably attendant more culture delusions - like conflakes taste good have some actual nutrition will satisfy the urge that brings me to them and so on.
 
Doreen said:
The delusion that what one is seeing is an object 'out there'.
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I doubt that was what John meant, otherwise one could claim that simply existing requires delusion.

Then there are probably attendant more culture delusions - like conflakes taste good have some actual nutrition will satisfy the urge that brings me to them and so on.
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Pfft. What if you're opening the pack for someone else?
(And cornflakes DO taste good :p).
 
Dywyddyr said:
I doubt that was what John meant, otherwise one could claim that simply existing requires delusion.
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I can't see how he didn't mean that....
Well even the most mundane\simplest tasks require a modicum of delusion but there is positive delusion and negative delusion.
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[my bold]
I would say that simply living requires acting on what could be considered delusions since we have a lack of evidence. If we based our actions (and attitudes and beliefs) only one what would pass some kind of peer review by scientists we would be dead very quickly or at least jammed onto life support and maintained by others.

Life requires assumption, faith if you will. I am with John on this one.

Pfft. What if you're opening the pack for someone else?
(And cornflakes DO taste good :p).
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Are you sure? Are you sure it's not an addiction based association to lots of simple carbs that will crash into your blood and cause all sorts of highs and lows?

Try them after eating a real, prof made breakfast and see if there isn't a carboard empty dry wasteland aspect to them.
 
Doreen said:
I would say that simply living requires acting on what could be considered delusions since we have a lack of evidence.
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Really? What, for the vast majority of people (not scientists) constitutes sufficient evidence?
The "evidence" that buses exist, is, for the most part given by the "fact" that it appears at the time given on the timetable (roughly +/- an hour - this IS England), that I have to hand over money and the driver's assessment of the amount paid agrees with mine, even down to me getting the correct change, and topped off by the general agreement that (what appears to be) all my friends happen to agree that I am now at their location where previously I was at home.

Are you sure? Are you sure it's not an addiction based association to lots of simple carbs that will crash into your blood and cause all sorts of highs and lows?
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I dunno, don't other things also give that result? Yet I choose cornflakes in preference.

Try them after eating a real, prof made breakfast and see if there isn't a carboard empty dry wasteland aspect to them.
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I put milk on mine, hence - not dry. And Kellogs' version definitely have a better flavour.
Oh, and I rarely have them for breakfast - they're for supper. :p
 
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Dywyddyr said:
Really? What, for the vast majority of people (not scientists) constitutes sufficient evidence?
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They go by common sense and faith in memory and intuition. Oh, the doors that opens....

The "evidence" that buses exist, is, for the most part given by the "fact" that it appears at the time given on the timetable (roughly +/- an hour - this IS England), that I have to hand over money and the driver's assessment of the amount paid agrees with mine, even down to me getting the correct change, and topped off by the general agreement that (what appears to be) all my friends happen to agree that I am now at their location where previously I was at home.
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So you trust your memory, in detail and that you are referring to something 'out there' and that your self persists through time. I am not saying you are wrong, just that you are working on a lot of faith. And if you are going to say it has worked so far pretty well, note that you are relying on the same family of evidence for this conclusion as well.

I dunno, don't other things also give that result? Yet I choose cornflakes in preference.
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As long as you know you might be deluded about the taste.


I put milk on mine, hence - not dry. And Kellogs' version definitely have a better flavour.
Oh, and I rarely have them for breakfast - they're for supper. :p
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This last helped put the issue in context for me. I give up.
 
John99 said:
It is all relative and i never mentioned the word requires\requirement.
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John even when I agree with you you disagree with me....

I was quoting you...

I will do it again....

Well even the most mundane\simplest tasks require a modicum of delusion but there is positive delusion and negative delusion.
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post 78
 
Doreen said:
They go by common sense and faith in memory and intuition. Oh, the doors that opens....
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Yep. But once again we're back to John's throwaway remark. Which he has so failed to expand upon. I should have expected that...
Regardless: is that sufficient evidence to get them through (what they believe to be) daily life?

So you trust your memory, in detail and that you are referring to something 'out there' and that your self persists through time. I am not saying you are wrong, just that you are working on a lot of faith. And if you are going to say it has worked so far pretty well, note that you are relying on the same family of evidence for this conclusion as well.
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No, again we're back to how much evidence is required for the assumptions to be regarded as worth holding. Although I'm not sure that your last sentence is quite right. There's something about it that doesn't strike me as... true? Consistent? Never mind, it'll come to me or it won't.

As long as you know you might be deluded about the taste.
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But then again, I'm "deluded" about everything I taste, aren't I? In which case what I'm actually saying is "I prefer the illusion of taste I get from product X over the illusion of taste I get from product Y". No?

This last helped put the issue in context for me. I give up.
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Well... the honest answer (i.e in YOUR context) would be: it comes down to what I'd prefer at the time.

You picked a bad example with "breakfast" because although, strictly speaking I do eat breakfast - i.e. I break my fast and have a "first meal of the day" - it's anywhere between 2 and 8 hours after I wake. I detest the thought of food just after rising. Sorry.
 
Dywyddyr said:
Yep. But once again we're back to John's throwaway remark. Which he has so failed to expand upon. I should have expected that...
Regardless: is that sufficient evidence to get them through (what they believe to be) daily life?
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Are you asking me for my intuitive sense. It seems to be. Of course many things about common sense, probably some that are false, help us get through everyday life, or seem to. How much they are limiting and/or creating that life, I don't know.
No, again we're back to how much evidence is required for the assumptions to be regarded as worth holding.
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I think most people would say if it is working (which must, ultimately, mean seem to be working) it's OK. But you can see the door that opens there.

Although I'm not sure that your last sentence is quite right. There's something about it that doesn't strike me as... true? Consistent? Never mind, it'll come to me or it won't.
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I could probably attack my last sentence, but...I don't wanna.

But then again, I'm "deluded" about everything I taste, aren't I? In which case what I'm actually saying is "I prefer the illusion of taste I get from product X over the illusion of taste I get from product Y". No?
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Sometimes I don't know how to answer since I am often role playing - iow feeding back worldviews that are not quite my own, in a hopefully annoying but somehow interesting way. Modern science - neuroscience, physics - is tending to say these days that our perceptions and sense of ourselves and everthing else is illusory. Which is a funny conclusion for empiricists to draw since it makes every theory fruit of the poisonous tree (metaphorically).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree

Note: illusory is not necessarily wrong. But it gets rather funny when you have scientists telling us that the 'Self' does not exist and we do not experience reality but a virtual reality - which to me always raises the issue of an infinite regress -- but that's another issue.

I don't know what they relied on when they went to the lab, but if it was selves and wasn't experience.......

(I do know I am being polemical here, but nevertheless, I think there is a real 'forgetting' in relation to experience. Forgetting it is the base and really the only thing we can be sure exists.


Well... the honest answer (i.e in YOUR context) would be: it comes down to what I'd prefer at the time.

You picked a bad example with "breakfast" because although, strictly speaking I do eat breakfast - i.e. I break my fast and have a "first meal of the day" - it's anywhere between 2 and 8 hours after I wake. I detest the thought of food just after rising. Sorry.
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No, it's OK. I think we both understood the arguments we were trying to bolster, regardless of your approach to eating.
 
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Doreen said:
Are you asking me for my intuitive sense. It seems to be. Of course many things about common sense, probably some that are false, help us get through everyday life, or seem to. How much they are limiting and/or creating that life, I don't know.
I think most people would say if it is working (which must, ultimately, mean seem to be working) it's OK. But you can see the door that opens there.
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Yup. Mostly (until I'm either posting here or in the pub with a couple of reliable drinking buddies, when the doors can/ do open) I go with sufficient unto the day..., which is definitely evil enough for me.

I could probably attack my last sentence, but...I don't wanna.
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Ha!

Sometimes I don't know how to answer since I am often role playing - iow feeding back worldviews that are not quite my own, in a hopefully annoying but somehow interesting way.
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Pfft, annoying in the right way is interesting in itself.

Modern science - neuroscience, physics - is tending to say these days that our perceptions and sense of ourselves and everthing else is illusory.
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But, and this is the question they fail to ask: to whom does it make a difference?
The guy running for the taxi?
The taxman?
The guy looking for next year's grant? Aah! ;)

Which is a funny conclusion for empiricists to draw since it makes every theory fruit of the poisonous tree (metaphorically).
Note: illusory is not necessarily wrong. But it gets rather funny when you have scientists telling us that the 'Self' does not exist and we do not experience reality but a virtual reality - which to me always raises the issue of an infinite regress -- but that's another issue.
I don't know what they relied on when they went to the lab, but if it was selves and wasn't experience.......
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Eurgh! I'm not going there.
Too convoluted methinks.
 
wynn said:
Who is the most spiritually advanced member of Sciforums?
And why?
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Kee-rist! I just saw this, and you say you're not a troll!? But I'll play along:
...you must not think that you have made any progress until you look upon yourself as inferior to all others... Thomas à Kempis (The Imitation of Christ)
 
Epictetus said:
Kee-rist! I just saw this, and you say you're not a troll!? But I'll play along:
...you must not think that you have made any progress until you look upon yourself as inferior to all others... Thomas à Kempis (The Imitation of Christ)
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Bazinga.
 
Not to mention bumping a 2 year old thread without adding any new content.

Wynn thinks she is.
 
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