Who created God?

[Lori_7]

I always find this argument cruel. To paraphrase, "If you don't find God it's your fault not God's". Of course, people are flawed and imperfect while God is perfect and omnipotent. It seems to me the onus is upon God.

~Raithere

Our imperfection actually perpetuates our understanding of God and His law, as it allows us to experience the consequences of good and evil. Our imperfection doesn't blind us to the truth, as evidence of Him and His law is shown in all things. People choose to be blind. And our imperfection does not impede our relationship with Him. It is our choice to want to have one, and He takes care of the rest, even given our condition.

 

[Raithere]

Our imperfection actually perpetuates our understanding of God and His law, as it allows us to experience the consequences of good and evil. Our imperfection doesn't blind us to the truth, as evidence of Him and His law is shown in all things. People choose to be blind. And our imperfection does not impede our relationship with Him. It is our choice to want to have one, and He takes care of the rest, even given our condition.

This is simply untrue. I was raised Christian and held Christian beliefs for many years. As I learned and studied I came to have more questions, not less. I asked for help in understanding. I prayed to God for understanding but no revelation was forthcoming. If understanding was granted it was not in the form of belief in Biblical or Christian doctrine it was the very opposite for I have come to understand Christianity, and indeed all religion, as man's expression of the human experience not of God's word.

~Raithere

 

[yank]

Nothing is known for sure about the nature of God's omnipotence, but the Bible gives us clues to God's heart and to how he works. I am putting the clues together, but I could be wrong. I can just tell you what the Bible says about God.

how can you believe in a book written thousands of years ago when people were surrounded by myth, superstitions, were orthodox and uneducated???

What is to understand? Tomorrow, I might go to work or I might not. So, I know the future. Now, I know myself and I enjoy going to work. So, if nothing changes my motivation, I will go to work. So, am I infringing on my free will to go to work? It is the same, but God knows all hearts and knows all possibilities.

well i know the future that i might go to work or i might not... i know two possibilities... but god knows what choice im going to make and in this way he knows exactly what's going to be the result! same as ur words - he knows all possibilities!

God decides the beginning and the end, we make up the rest.

he can't know the end without knowing what happens in between... because the events in between lead to the events in the end... we just dont skip time and land up at the end!

But, he can say, "I know yank is a good person and will help that grandma out because I can trust him because he has not let me down before, so if that happens the grandma is going to give him $100 for helping out, but if he doesn't he is going to be hit by a car."

now now now, god is really mean... if i don't wanna help that old lady... he would punish me by taking away my life? this is not the god i thought him to be!

 

[Sarkus]

If you start from the premise that there is a god - and he is everything that the Bible says - then, lo and behold, the Universe fits and works so nicely because everything can be explained by "god". To these people, the idea that there isn't a god is absurd.

If you start from the premise that there is no god - and that the Bible is merely a book (like Lord of the Rings, but longer) - then lo and behold, the Universe fits and works so nicely because everything can be explained. We may not yet have the answers and we may never will - but the entire Universe is there to be explored and explained. To these people, the idea that there is a god is absurd - and is just a short cut to the answer "I don't know".

So, who created god?
Man.
Why did Man create god?
To give him an excuse for not knowing or understanding.

 

[yank]

We may not yet have the answers and we may never will

we'll surely have an answer for that too...
like thousands of years ago we never knew that the sun was a big ball of gas!

 

[Darkman]

I imagine smaller beings (we're talking particle size) which fused to create a soul, but then this raises the question of what created these initial beings. Whatever the case it is truly a phenomenon.

So, who created god?
Man.
Why did Man create god?
To give him an excuse for not knowing or understanding.

Sarkus I think you'll find that man did not create God, and that it was not God himself who created Man.

 

[john smith]

I imagine smaller beings (we're talking particle size) which fused to create a soul, but then this raises the question of what created these initial beings. Whatever the case it is truly a phenomenon.



Sarkus I think you'll find that man did not create God, and that it was not God himself who created Man.

Man, indeed DID create god, we needed to belive we are here for a purpose, everyone wants to have a reason for existing, and God is pretty much the full stop at the end of that search.... :m:

 

[yank]

Sarkus I think you'll find that man did not create God, and that it was not God himself who created Man.

matter is indestructible... it can neither be created nor be destoyed...
so there's no sense in god creating humans!

 

[Novacane]

These things are for sure (if you believe that is). God apparently likes to give instructions to a special few (Noah) on Ark building before making it rain for forty days and forty nights (getting rid all of the trash I guess) and how to load several hundred tons of animals on it after he's finished. It also appears that God also likes to hang around burning bushes on mountain tops with his good buddy (Moses) and write recommendations about 'Sinless' living to failthless humans on stone tablets using a flame thrower of sorts. Plus, God resurrected his crucified son Jesus from the grave. To top it off, God 'dropped shipped' him into heaven with a special angel envoy. Other than that, not much else is known about God. I guess the bottom line is; 'Don't Mess With God'.

Novacane

 

[jayleew]

ok,
1. what if you ask for something and change your mind later? if you can change your mind later, then it was never up to god, it was just something you decided to do for a while.
2. This means that prayer cannot affect other people, which is a direct contradiction of Christianity (and other religions). (see below quote)

so what is it? is got not good, less than all-powerful, or is the bible wrong? (if the bible is wrong, then the whole religion is flawed).

Human understanding is flawed, not Godly mysteries.

You do not understand because you do not have the Holy Ghost within you.
1 Corithians Chapter 2
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. 14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The scriptures also say, "The wisdom of God is as foolishness to man" and vice versa.

God gives us free will to always choose.
Everyday I pray that my family will live in peace and love. Okay, does that mean that God will force us to live in peace and love? I wish I wish I wish, life would be easier. However, whenever my wife and I have our differences the Holy Ghost tugs on my heart. It is not a guilt trip, but the love for the other is kindled immediately. Because I have asked for peace, my heart goes soft instead of blowing up in anger. Is the anger there? Oh yeah, but that is okay. God says be angry, but do not sin. It's like God removes the bitterness of anger so that you are level-headed enough to choose. God removes the human instinct so that we can choose with a clear mind and heart to make a good decision. In a split second, I make the decision. There is a small ocassion where I have chosen to get angry outwardly, but it is quickly stifled and guilt hits shortly after that.

But it goes further than me. I ask for my whole family. So, my wife (who is a head strong woman), I find tender where she was not before. Does that mean God has infringed on her will? No, because you can see her battle the anger, but you can also see the peace fall over her as the Holy Ghost softens her heart. She makes the choice to listen because she listens to the Spirit. Life is a battle against yourself. The Holy Ghost can help you, but it cannot MAKE you do anything. I wish it could. Sometimes I make such a mess that I wish God would take over my life.

ONCE AGAIN, let me explain the weak anthropic principal: if we exist, then the universe must be able to have life. but we would not know if the universe wasn't able to support life, because we would not be there. therefore, if there are an infinite number of universes, or the one we are in goes through a infinite cycle of bang/crunch with different fundamental forces each time, (different breaking of symmetry) then the odds of one of those times (out of an infinite number of times) producing life, at least once, is 100%. the only thing the odds are against is a finite number of big bangs, and I never said that was the case. And we no nothing of the other universes, just like the weak anthropic principal predicts.

There is no proof, nor do the odds support a bang/crunch cycle. The odds support one bang. Nothing further can be guessed with such great odds.
Your argument is illogical:
Cato: No matter if there are an infinite number of universes, or if this one goes through a cycle, the odds are that one time producing life is 100%.

TRUE.

Cato follows:The odds are against a finite number of big bangs.

Lack of evidence. Your first true statement does not logically prove the second.

For it to be true, there would have to be life elsewhere, and Astronomers have stated that the Solar System's nearly circular orbit sustains life, whereas the eliptical orbits of other systems will cause the gas giants in other systems to make life inhospitibal on any other planet.

 

[Yorda]

What does magnetism have to do with Evolution?

Everything wants to unite... they want to become whole again... they are not themselves... consider a man and a woman... they want to unite, and the will between them can be called magnetism... without a complementary half, people feel alone and forsaken...

atomic particles and cells etc want to unite... and this way... because they try to unite to become themselves again... they reproduce and become more and more advanced... minerals, plants, insects, animals, men.... THE BEING comes closer to his real forgotten self: "god".

However... it doesn't matter how many magnets you put together, they always want more... it is never enough... because the unification cannot be attained physically. matter offers resistance, so that unification is not possible, because unification means nothingness... so... if things really could unite... there could be no universe. all "matter" would dissapear.

And your evidence for this is?

You just have to think logically and you'll find it's true.

 

[jayleew]

matter is indestructible... it can neither be created nor be destoyed...
so there's no sense in god creating humans!

FALSE, every scientific element has a rate of decay. Everything loses electrons over time, only some lose it slower than others (some lose it in bunches).

Only energy is constant.

 

[jayleew]

Man, indeed DID create god, we needed to belive we are here for a purpose, everyone wants to have a reason for existing, and God is pretty much the full stop at the end of that search.... :m:

Bold statement, I hope you have proof.

 

[jayleew]

If you start from the premise that there is a god - and he is everything that the Bible says - then, lo and behold, the Universe fits and works so nicely because everything can be explained by "god". To these people, the idea that there isn't a god is absurd.

If you start from the premise that there is no god - and that the Bible is merely a book (like Lord of the Rings, but longer) - then lo and behold, the Universe fits and works so nicely because everything can be explained. We may not yet have the answers and we may never will - but the entire Universe is there to be explored and explained. To these people, the idea that there is a god is absurd - and is just a short cut to the answer "I don't know".

So, who created god?
Man.
Why did Man create god?
To give him an excuse for not knowing or understanding.

You are right, to each his own.

The more we learn, the less we know. We gain the ability to see down to the size of a molecule, and yet more questions arise because what we see defies all chance, so scientists each day I realizing that there is a design. Those that seek to prove there is no design, find it. Test God to the core, and you will find him. Not superficially, but scientifically. Anyone can say, "I prayed, but nothing happened." It's fine to ask God for things, but what are you doing for him? We never learn...

A life of serving mankind that ends is a life forgotten.
A life to please oneself that ends is no life at all.
A life of serving God that ends is everlasting life in heaven.

Choose.

 

[MarcAC]

I always find this argument cruel. To paraphrase, "If you don't find God it's your fault not God's". Of course, people are flawed and imperfect while God is perfect and omnipotent. It seems to me the onus is upon God.

The onus is opun us Raithere.

I have seen you boldly state the converse in many ways - veritable bravery (to me) indeed, but bravery is very relative to the situation - i.e. there's a very blurry line between bravery and naivety.

How many times have you seen or heard references to "God Exists" from some theist - especially Christian in the context your statement was made? I'm sure some arguments have been compelling yet your answer would just be "It doesn't have to be that way as there are other ways of explaining it". The question I'd ask if I were God when you "get to His throne and kneel" is; why didn't you believe? Then you'd better come up with better answers than "There were other explanations and I chose to believe those."

 

[jayleew]

What the heck, let's jump in with both feet.

The "evidence" he brings to the table is, of course, hopelessly false. Such variants are found in many different living things all operating quite nicely, wouldn't you know.

You just judged his research by second hand detail, that goes to show how lazy we all are at doing our own research and finding the truth. I know I was lazy. Then years ago I thought I knew it all. I was brought through Sunday school, I had a critical mind and an interest in science. I loved Physics. I took it all in college. I studied it, I made my conclusions of evidence without even looking it up on the internet.

It wasn't until I actually sat down and did some research of the theory of evolution that anything got accomplished. Don't take second hand detail as fact, read it yourself. There is indisputable proof of his findings and he is respected by the scientific community. Now, I didn't say HE disproves evolution, but that Darwin disproves it himself in the words he left behind. Behe has found what Darwin said if found, then my theory is crap.

As far as variant life you talk of, you are talking about completed creatures microscopic or otherwise, that have modified building blocks. Well, Behe's findings say it is improbable to modify the blocks at all. So, how were they modified? Again, I am butchering his work. Please read it yourself.

 

[MarcAC]

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?

If the universe does not need to be created how can it exist(?)? What's the diff. between the questions?

The conclusion God relies on more than some causal argument - it is a result of the harmony of arguments for cause (sentient), objective purpose, objective meaning, objective morality... and their roles within humanity - all relative to The Cause.

We can directly observe the universe but does it allow us to conclude on some objective purpose, meaning, morality other than "just be"? Can we view the universe as sentient except through ourselves?

 

[jayleew]

This is simply untrue. I was raised Christian and held Christian beliefs for many years. As I learned and studied I came to have more questions, not less. I asked for help in understanding. I prayed to God for understanding but no revelation was forthcoming. If understanding was granted it was not in the form of belief in Biblical or Christian doctrine it was the very opposite for I have come to understand Christianity, and indeed all religion, as man's expression of the human experience not of God's word.

~Raithere

So was I, the first 18 years of my life I was Catholic. Then, I said the words, "I don't know if there is a God."

For a couple years I struggled, and my wife was praying for me. I struggled with God. I wrestled with him. I had doubts galor.

Then, I found evidence of the fossil record disproving evolution. Shoot, then I found out that I was lied to all my life. I thought evolution was a fact.

Then, after being nutured by God, ten years later, I am a friend of him. And the most important thing I learned is that is not about how much you know about God. It is how much you submit your life to his service. That is how to follow Christ. I'd rather my struggling brothers and sisters, put the Bible down and start giving up their "precious" life in the name of God. There you find happiness folks. A peace that is passed understanding, even in the trials that I am in right this minute.

 

[jayleew]

how can you believe in a book written thousands of years ago when people were surrounded by myth, superstitions, were orthodox and uneducated???

HAHA, you did not read my post. That is the weakness of my belief (not my faith, for I trust in God).
The reason I believe is five things. One, it is written by many who say the same thing over generations. Two, it contains many prophecies, all of which came true. Three, Jesus Christ was a man who claimed to be the Son of God, and if he was, proves all the scriptures true to me. Four, it teaches me how to live a life that is truly at peace. Five, there is physical evidence of much of the accounts.

well i know the future that i might go to work or i might not... i know two possibilities... but god knows what choice im going to make and in this way he knows exactly what's going to be the result! same as ur words - he knows all possibilities!

Yup. The difference between us and God is that he also knows all hearts.

he can't know the end without knowing what happens in between... because the events in between lead to the events in the end... we just dont skip time and land up at the end!

He knows he is going to end it and how he is going to, time is not an issue to God, so it is irrelevant.

now now now, god is really mean... if i don't wanna help that old lady... he would punish me by taking away my life? this is not the god i thought him to be!

HEHE! I knew somebody would be caught up in my quick tongue. I withdraw that statement. That was the first thing that came to my head. Sorry! I didn't mean to say he is going punish you for not helping the old lady, it was the first thing that came into my head. My point is that there are possibilities to each decision, and with each decision, there are different results. That's all.

 

[cato]

Does that mean God has infringed on her will?

yes. if she does not have 100% control over her emotions then, yes, her free will is infringed upon.

Human understanding is flawed, not Godly mysteries.

wow, that is the single worst argument I have ever hear. have you ever taken a college level philosophy class? if you have, I recommend taking another.

For it to be true, there would have to be life elsewhere, and Astronomers have stated that the Solar System's nearly circular orbit sustains life, whereas the elliptical orbits of other systems will cause the gas giants in other systems to make life inhospitibal on any other planet.

there are 3x10^22 stars in the visible universe alone. not to mention if there are parallel universes. but the kicker is that mars probably had/has life on it. that’s .000008 light years away, our visible universe is billions of light years out there.

There is no proof, nor do the odds support a bang/crunch cycle. The odds support one bang. Nothing further can be guessed with such great odds.

we don’t know that for sure. if the universe continues as it is now, then there will be no crunch. but the universe has accelerated before, it can do it again. but that is not the point. my point is that if there is a multiverse, in one form or another, that it must, in an infinite amount of tries, produce life. how is that argument wrong?

on any other planet

listen to your hubris. this statement is as flawed as your whole argument.

once again, let me ask the question. if god effects your feelings in any way, he has tampered with your free will. so what is it? is got not good, less than all-powerful, or is the bible wrong? (if the bible is wrong, then the whole religion is flawed). lets not forget

"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."- MATTHEW 21:22

p.s.

Only energy is constant.

energy is equivalent to mass(matter) E=MC^2