Who can judge God?
- Thread starter j.a.g
- Start date
Either all judgments are personal opinions, or there is an Objective Moral Truth.
If the former is true, then I clearly can judge any god.
I am one of the rare people that thinks the latter is true, and that all ethical judgments have to be made with the OMT in mind. I do not think the OMT can include the killing of innocents for no reason whatsoever, which is what the creator of the universe does with alarming regularity. So even with the more stringent condition, I can judge god.
There are other ways we can judge god besides ethics. One would be aesthetics. The layout of the stars at night seems banal and random to me. Orion hardly looks like a hunter at all. I give god very low marks in stellar arrangement.
I can also judge god on lack of imagination. Having all life on Earth be based off of DNA is restrictive and leads to a ton of repetition. I could have done much better with hardly any effort. This is a judgment.
Earth has an embarrassing wobble in its rotation.
Siamese twins were not a good idea. Not at all.
oh my aren't we so special...how intriguing
I nominate Draq to judge God.
I nominate everyone to judge God and come up with the best representation of the overall view on how they see God.
You are an idiot, aren't you? I am pointing out the uniqueness of myself holding an unfavorable position because it is weak and difficult to prove. In other words, I am admitting that I am a bit daft.
I can't tell which is worse: trying to comprehend the garbage you type or watching you attempt to sort out what other people are talking about. Most of the time your posts make me throw up in the back of my throat a little.
well if you must consort to insults, I will cease talking to you upon your direct request to do so.
Thank you. Please put me on your ignore list. I hate you.
I dont.
Perhaps, but the god they are judging is one they created themselves, unless of course, you believe people actually can see god?
I love listening to dragon go back and forth between "We can't possibly know anything" to "Let me tell you how it all is".
"God exists outside of reality" (a statement of fact about god) and "Because of this we can not know anything about God" (a refutation of the aforementioned fact) to "God created the first universe" (now we are refuting the second fact) and "universes have always existed in a cycle of infinite universes" (refutation of third fact)
I'm surprised dragon hasn't been banned for life from the forums. There are no standards here at all.
If God is not immanent, yet exists, transcendental, yet having concern for this world, understanding how his presence can be felt becomes easier
Kind of like a drop sea water displays the qualitative aspects of the ocean (eg saltiness) but not the quantitative (eg - you can't drown in it). Similarly we display the quality of god but not of his quantity.
Many scriptural texts read like mystery novels with the last page ripped out (you never find out whodunnit), primarily because they are concerned with basic religious principles (eg - reminders that its not ok steal, murder and sleep with your neighbour's wife)
the original language that "rest" is written in more correctly translates as "pause" ..... kind of like there is a pause in a musical composition, not because the trumpet player is flustered but for aesthetic merit.
Actually I think that plato addressed the phenomenal nature of this world as being contingent on the activities of the mind
Brahma is credited as being involved in the secondary creation (or visarga) .... he has no connection with the manifestation of the base elements of the phenomenal world (which are credited as belonging to Vishnu)
BG 7.4 Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
All of whom are understood to be empowered representatives or servants/plenary expansions of Krishna
BG 5.29 A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.
you could say that the material world is something like a reflection of the spiritual world (and that the spiritual world is completely socialized around the service of god) .... kind of like the shadow has the form and movement of an object but not the substance.
CC adi 7.146 “One’s relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, activities in terms of that relationship, and the ultimate goal of life [to develop love of God]—these three subjects are explained in every aphorism of the Vedänta-sütra, for they form the culmination of the entire Vedänta philosophy.”
"activity" and "relationship" tend to suggest a personal aspect
sure
the main stumbling block is understanding that they can't be God, however
no
that is why part of the understanding process involves transcending the (conditioned) mind
SB 11.13.6 Until one revives one's direct knowledge of the spirit soul and drives away the illusory identification with the material body and mind caused by the three modes of nature, one must cultivate those things in the mode of goodness. By increasing the mode of goodness, one automatically can understand and practice religious principles, and by such practice transcendental knowledge is awakened.
If one identifies with the body/mind, they cannot comprehend
the purpose of life is to seek enjoyment
the purpose of the material world is to teach us where this actually is
many ways
but most specifically
BG 15.15 I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.
usually we are related to the universe through a desire to exploit it's resources
BG 7.5 Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
This runs contrary to our relationship with god, namely that of an eternal servant
SB 11.2.37 Fear arises when a living entity misidentifies himself as the material body because of absorption in the external, illusory energy of the Lord. When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called mäyä. Therefore, an intelligent person should engage unflinchingly in the unalloyed devotional service of the Lord, under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, whom he should accept as his worshipable deity and as his very life and soul.
four primary catalysts for approaching god
BG 7.16 O best among the Bhäratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.
each category presents a different standard
sure
that is why there is a special emphasis on the word "begin"
IOW if material conditions drive one towards inquiry to god, they can just as easily drive one away again - eg - one is very devotionally inclined for as long as they are in material distress, but once they get the good life they swing back a bit
tying political issues into religion certainly is good for nationality but it tends to diminish religious principles
infact, to state quite bluntly
SB 10.84.13 One who identifies his self as the inert body composed of mucus, bile and air, who assumes his wife and family are permanently his own, who thinks an earthen image or the land of his birth is worshipable, or who sees a place of pilgrimage as merely the water there, but who never identifies himself with, feels kinship with, worships or even visits those who are wise in spiritual truth—such a person is no better than a cow or an ass.
I don't understand what you mean by "real life scenarios" as opposed to "abstract concepts"
why use the word "judge"?
Do you mean something more like "understand the qualities of", or "know"?
I tend not to become caught up in endless dialogue concerning God. I have studied many religions, and I am firmly Christian. The proof to me is the unmistakable transition that has occured over the years within my life. It had nothing to do with what came from the inside, but rather what came from the outside in. As for the contention and historical perversion of Christianity, what do you expect of human Beings? Perhaps it is up to the truly skeptical to discover the truth that has been questioned and twisted out of context by others through the centuries. If you are honestly looking, you will find the truth.
one of the best lines on the whole thread
what/who is god? all of it
who told me? the words created by mankind
is there a single book on this earth someone can hold up and say, "here is God" and be telling the truth? Nope!
what is the proof of absolute truth? the understanding of life!
Be at ease
It is good that you have questions. Ask a lot of them, and often. Do not trust your own judgement completely. To me an athiest is an individual who is very disappointed in established Religion. Always has been. I have always said there is no such thing as an atheist really. I don't blame you for being turned off to God, with all the perversion of the truth throughout the centuries. Perhaps you will be the very type of person to discover the truth after all. Keep looking. Don't look for it inside of yourself, expect it to come from the outside in, to prove it to your own mind.
It is good that you have questions. Ask a lot of them, and often. Do not trust your own judgement completely. To me an athiest is an individual who is very disappointed in established Religion. Always has been. I have always said there is no such thing as an atheist really. I don't blame you for being turned off to God, with all the perversion of the truth throughout the centuries. Perhaps you will be the very type of person to discover the truth after all. Keep looking. Don't look for it inside of yourself, expect it to come from the outside in, to prove it to your own mind.
From a Xian's point of view that makes SOME sense :shrug:
But atheist disappointed in a certain flavor of religion?, it's not ice cream.
and don't trust YOUR own judgment ?.. what trust the myths of a tribe of desert warriors..c'mon .. talking snakes and talking mules..lol
how about some non perverted truths then.. some facts :shh:
lay it on the line
Wouldn't you be your own most biased judge?
Very well then, I can lay it on the line. If you do not want to know, you won't. I think that is the real stump of the topic. Do you want to know? I know you need proof. I'm not trying to be flippant when I say this. I realize this is the main complaint of the one who questions: where is the proof? Study intensely the rational evidence, but you will find it will not be enough, ever. So I know myself and am convinced of what I believe in, and not out of desperation or any other " rational " observation, in fact If I really ponder all of this I am a bit stymied. Yet it is as solid than reality itself.