Which is more important: Secular or Religious education

Which is more important: Secular or Religous education

  • Secular education

    Votes: 26 92.9%

  • Religious education

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Total voters
    28
S.A.M. said:
Are you seriously telling me that abstract reasoning evolved on a need to know basis? The Piraha don't need to count? They don't need to know what happens to a canoe when it goes around the bend? Well clearly if their criteria for reasoning is direct personal experience. Guess that is why they don't need history or stories or any of those other indirect abstract stuff.
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Obviously not Sam. How long have they been surviving like this without this 'need'?

What and religious wars that do not utilize a bomb are ok with you?
 
S.A.M. said:
If the alternative is living like the Piraha?
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Well that's besides the point because I wouldn't want my thinking to be stifled and formed by a cult/religion.

My question is since this tribe has been able to navigate a canoe around a bend without the need of abstract thought do they really need it? They have survived quite a long time without it if it was important they would not survive.
 
They were isolated for so long. I doubt they'll survive much longer once their area comes under development.
 
S.A.M. said:
They were isolated for so long. I doubt they'll survive much longer once their area comes under development.
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Lot's of traditional cultures/societies do not survive under development, yes and many of those DID have 'abstract thinking' so its a mute point and has nothing to do with what you are asserting. The fact of the matter is that they have been able to survive for a long time without this facility.
 
The traditional cultures may not survive, the people do, because they can adapt. These people can't even learn numbers
 
S.A.M. said:
The traditional cultures may not survive, the people do, because they can adapt. These people can't even learn numbers
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You don't know if taken from the environment completely that they will never be able to adapt. You say they have contact with others but that doesn't mean they have to adapt to the ways of others as they are still in their own environment, you also say they 'cannot' learn to count even when they are being taught but this doesn't prove that if they were in an environment where the act of counting was paramount to their survival that they would not adapt and learn it (especially their children). As long as they are stable and surviving in their natural environment there is no need for change as it was not paramount to their survival so far. Obviously anthropology isn't your strong suit.

Also there are many cultures where the people survive but poorly being unable to adjust. Just look at what happened to the both the Baka and Kung tribes when they were forced to alter their way of life.
 
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As long as they are stable and surviving in their natural environment there is no need for change as it was not paramount to their survival so far.
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I agree. The fact that they consider anything they cannot perceive as having moved into some other dimension [like a canoe going around the bend] is not relevant in their present circumstance. Maybe it can hold true for the future as well. But it will surely create issues once their region is developed. I don't recall saying they have to adapt, I just said that if two centuries of contact with the Brazilians didn't do it, it seems unlikely they will
 
S.A.M. said:
I agree. The fact that they consider anything they cannot perceive as having moved into some other dimension [like a canoe going around the bend] is not relevant in their present circumstance. Maybe it can hold true for the future as well. But it will surely create issues once their region is developed. I don't recall saying they have to adapt, I just said that if two centuries of contact with the Brazilians didn't do it, it seems unlikely they will
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Contact with Brazilians does not demand nor necessitate change of this basic way of being they have adapted to. Surely there will be a shift when their region is developed if its not protected, but as sure as they are human beings within a one or two generations they will adapt to whatever new society and culture within which they are immersed.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah, a religious one.
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Maybe or maybe they will adapt in a secular way and leave the religion alone keeping their own. A lot of how they would adapt will depend on how they are treated by the government as far as placement. There have been other indigenous tribes that have been placed at the edge of the amazon where they pretty much live amongst themselves and retain much of their culture; sometimes they become a little of a tourist attraction though they will adapt to new housing and a different mode of living. Its been proven that placing them in city centers rarely works in the beginning but the young eventually tend to leave in hopes of better employment and other possibilities. The days of using religion to assimilate indigenous tribes is a thing of the past, its not considered useful anymore and as in American Indians and aboriginal communities it proved actually to be detrimental. Remember they already have an animist tradition

Here are some of their rights as outlined by the U.N:

The human right to maintain their distinctive spiritual and material relationship with the lands, to own land individually and in community with others, and to transfer land rights according to their own customs.

The human right to enjoy and develop their own culture and language.

The human right to establish and maintain their own schools and other training and educational institutions, and to teach and receive training in their own languages.

The human right to self-determination and autonomy over all matters internal to the group, including in the fields of culture, religion, and local government.

http://www.pdhre.org/rights/indigenous.html
 
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Now we're entering the realm beyond direct experience which is a different dimension for the Piraha.
 
S.A.M. said:
Now we're entering the realm beyond direct experience which is a different dimension for the Piraha.
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But that has nothing to do with adopting an occidental religion. They're indigenous remember not inherently stupid:rolleyes:

They will only change if the need arises and that usually occurs in a generation or two.
 
It hasn't happened in 2 centuries of contact with Brazilians. That either makes them "inherently stupid" or a completely different kind of phenomenon. Perhaps anthropologists should take the opportunity to study them. Who knows, they may have only a few centuries before they become like Varda :p
Here are some of their rights as outlined by the U.N:

The human right to maintain their distinctive spiritual and material relationship with the lands, to own land individually and in community with others, and to transfer land rights according to their own customs.

The human right to enjoy and develop their own culture and language.

The human right to establish and maintain their own schools and other training and educational institutions, and to teach and receive training in their own languages.

The human right to self-determination and autonomy over all matters internal to the group, including in the fields of culture, religion, and local government.

http://www.pdhre.org/rights/indigenous.html
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When was the last time anyone actually enforced these?

I bet the evangelicals will be more successful than the UN.
 
No actually historically speaking evangelicals have caused harm to indigenous people, stripping them of their identity and culture which has lead to a low self-esteem and lack of group cohesion to mention a few of the problems that occur. If they have cultural anthropologists in the area already checking them out as a 'unique' group you can be sure that provisions will be made and the use of priests who indoctrinate indigenous folk would not be allowed. Its considered manipulative and counter productive. Brazil already knows how destructive this can be the christians attempted to quell their native african beliefs and what did you get? Macumba.

Macumba followers used christian gods to shroud the base belief system and its structure to fool the priests but it was still their original african tradition. No nation uses priests anymore not even the Khmers use monks or Buddhism to try and assimilate their indigenous tribes. The use of priests and religion in dealing with indigenous peoples is passe.
 
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Wanna bet what? I don't know what I am supposed to be looking for in the link. It says the primary religion is ethnic and that 80.20% of the population practices there indigenous religion. Doesn't look like successful missionary work to me.

Evangelicals >.01% but <=2%. Christian Adherents >5%.
 
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Abstract thought is a phenotype, perhaps their entire culture, language and superstitions are reflections of a single protein mutation?

Perhaps a small amount of superstition is important for abstract thought processes? You know, like teaching children about Santa Clause. Maybe it good for them to ponder that as children? How a fat man gets his reindeer and slay around the globe in a night? BUT, maybe at some point it's important to teach children that Santa is not true? Perhaps it's good while children, but, could actually retard continued neural development if continue past a certain development point?
 
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