Point Defiance is probably the highlight of Tacoma.
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When Is A Terrorist Not A Terrorist?
- Thread starter Red Devil
- Start date
Tiassa, called Red Devil an 'illiterate twat' when your supposed explanantion was a run on sentence of absolutley horrific grammar amazes me. I find it hard to see what you're saying there, and just what your point is, other than the American perspective of Irish terrorism changed post Omagh.
Well, that was just one bombing, and to be honest, the fact that the know nothing uneducated populace in the USA finally changed their mind over that one issue highlights the contempt they had for the whole issue while passively supporting terrorism previously.
I might be wrong, be I suspect Red Devil may have been in Northern Ireland for professional reasons, knowing his background. I've been to Ireland too, and many of my friends have served in the armed forces there. That said, I think we are far more in touch with the politics than you, as you have patently demonstrated by your poor grasp of Irelands history.
For a start, land was taken in Ireland by the Normans, nearly a thousand years ago. Henry VIII appointed various people to rule these parts of Ireland for him 800 years ago, to prevent them from getting too strong and independant and being a potential threat to the crown. At this time of course, Henry was a Catholic, but that changed when the Pope wouldn't grant him a divorce, he started the schizm that is the Church of England, and the rest as they say, is history.
The troubles in Ireland are a relatively modern revival, up until 1920, I think only about 100 people had been recorded killed in sectarian violence. That number exploded recently, to 3000. The factions co-existed peacefully for a very long time, and republicanism was not as big an issue as it supposedly is today.
The potato famine. Ah, what a twisted piece of history that is. Quite simply, if the Catholic church had given a shit about it's faithful, it would have sent aid. But it did not. The Church of England offered aid, to those that would convert from Catholicism, but they would not, so they chose to starve, or emigrate. I have no sympathy for overly proud people who would allow their children to starve, instead of believing in the same faith, minus that crook, the Pope.
Anyway, I suggest you do a little more research, before embarrassing yourself on this issue any more. Maybe visit Ireland, talk to the locals, see what they have to say?
Well, that was just one bombing, and to be honest, the fact that the know nothing uneducated populace in the USA finally changed their mind over that one issue highlights the contempt they had for the whole issue while passively supporting terrorism previously.
I might be wrong, be I suspect Red Devil may have been in Northern Ireland for professional reasons, knowing his background. I've been to Ireland too, and many of my friends have served in the armed forces there. That said, I think we are far more in touch with the politics than you, as you have patently demonstrated by your poor grasp of Irelands history.
For a start, land was taken in Ireland by the Normans, nearly a thousand years ago. Henry VIII appointed various people to rule these parts of Ireland for him 800 years ago, to prevent them from getting too strong and independant and being a potential threat to the crown. At this time of course, Henry was a Catholic, but that changed when the Pope wouldn't grant him a divorce, he started the schizm that is the Church of England, and the rest as they say, is history.
The troubles in Ireland are a relatively modern revival, up until 1920, I think only about 100 people had been recorded killed in sectarian violence. That number exploded recently, to 3000. The factions co-existed peacefully for a very long time, and republicanism was not as big an issue as it supposedly is today.
The potato famine. Ah, what a twisted piece of history that is. Quite simply, if the Catholic church had given a shit about it's faithful, it would have sent aid. But it did not. The Church of England offered aid, to those that would convert from Catholicism, but they would not, so they chose to starve, or emigrate. I have no sympathy for overly proud people who would allow their children to starve, instead of believing in the same faith, minus that crook, the Pope.
Anyway, I suggest you do a little more research, before embarrassing yourself on this issue any more. Maybe visit Ireland, talk to the locals, see what they have to say?
Hmmm. NI?
It's a big black hole that the british populace have been pouring their hard earned taxes into for many years now. I suspect the government would be glad to give it up if it wasn't for the 60% of the population who wave their british passports and insist on protection.
Yup it's not a situation to be proud of but what more can you do?
Just like America in Iraq.
What the Government and army do over there is just a little beyond the control of your average citizen.
Not that we are completely to blame. Remember Noraid?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
Well thank you for doing what you thought was best America.
Any chance you might want to donate money to the 'Friends of al-quida' fund I'm setting up?
The 1996 bomb attack injured almost 400 people (source bbc)
Hey look!
It's my local mall circa '96!
Now how would America respond to a similar attack on it's own turf?
With love?
At least the Irish got a better deal than the native Americans.
TTFN
Dee Cee
It's a big black hole that the british populace have been pouring their hard earned taxes into for many years now. I suspect the government would be glad to give it up if it wasn't for the 60% of the population who wave their british passports and insist on protection.
Yup it's not a situation to be proud of but what more can you do?
Just like America in Iraq.
What the Government and army do over there is just a little beyond the control of your average citizen.
Not that we are completely to blame. Remember Noraid?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
Well thank you for doing what you thought was best America.
Any chance you might want to donate money to the 'Friends of al-quida' fund I'm setting up?
The 1996 bomb attack injured almost 400 people (source bbc)
Hey look!
It's my local mall circa '96!
Now how would America respond to a similar attack on it's own turf?
With love?
At least the Irish got a better deal than the native Americans.
TTFN
Dee Cee
Right. England's entirely blameless in all of this.
To repeat, what about the Widgery Inquiry? What about the "five methods"? What about the practice of internment without trial? If it's hypocritical for Americans to support the IRA while condemning Al Qaeda (and it is), then it's equally hypocritical for y'all to condemn Gitmo and Abu Ghraib while supporting the use of similar methods against the IRA.
To repeat, what about the Widgery Inquiry? What about the "five methods"? What about the practice of internment without trial? If it's hypocritical for Americans to support the IRA while condemning Al Qaeda (and it is), then it's equally hypocritical for y'all to condemn Gitmo and Abu Ghraib while supporting the use of similar methods against the IRA.
Indeed he is, if he's going to be wasting so much energy on a misdirected temper tantrum.
Well, putting it simply doesn't seem to work for you, either.
That's because you're worried about the wrong issues.
Red Devil chose to read a sentence out of context in order to throw a fit. The rest of his pathetic rant is irrelevant to me and something of his own paranoid invention.
And I suggest you learn to read before you shove your foot any farther down your throat.
I mean, there's stupid. That's for sure. But if I take either of you seriously at all, there's stupid and then there's the British.
easy now guys. i have a solution
you celts, (scots, irish and welsh) should form a new country and build a dyke like offa's on the borders. fill it up with beer, curry and deep fried mars bars. you could then take pot shots at the frenzied english going for their favourite thing, a free lunch. i mean, that's what the pigs came for in the first place, yes? shoot at em with longbows and sing, go home to fucking germany, you dispossesed krauts!
what say you english? attila kicked your asses, the romans fucked you up the ass, and you still persist in bothering these freedom loving, maypole dancing, hippie type guys?. go back to germany and take those inbred idiots that pass for royalty along with you.
yeah! thats right! keep moving and no looking back either!
you celts, (scots, irish and welsh) should form a new country and build a dyke like offa's on the borders. fill it up with beer, curry and deep fried mars bars. you could then take pot shots at the frenzied english going for their favourite thing, a free lunch. i mean, that's what the pigs came for in the first place, yes? shoot at em with longbows and sing, go home to fucking germany, you dispossesed krauts!
what say you english? attila kicked your asses, the romans fucked you up the ass, and you still persist in bothering these freedom loving, maypole dancing, hippie type guys?. go back to germany and take those inbred idiots that pass for royalty along with you.
yeah! thats right! keep moving and no looking back either!
Yes, yes, yes ... no need to tell us our own stuff. And that's one of the differences, if you must attempt a comparison - British people do know their own stuff. No need to wait for leaked photos or anything of that nature. Thus things change. Not always fast, but they do, hence the Widgery Inquiry has been superceded by the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, as detailed here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/665100.stm
There's an ever present capacity for questioning and self-criticism, and believe me it's apparent in our history text books, which engenders a sense of consequences. Can the same be said of American counterparts?
Bear in mind too that, as Phlog pointed out, the troubles in Ireland are old - it's a situation that's evolved. Even long, arduous study typically fails to suggest clear cut solutions - old, complex problems don't lend themselves to quick fixes - and solutions of any kind can only do so much when a problem has become engrained in the psyche of a people. Perhaps this too is something that the US, which too often fails to consider the possibility or desirability of middle ground between apathy and overkill (let alone the psychology of the people it's "helping"), can't quite understand.
Ah, I see Tiassa is on the back foot now. Not offering new explanantions, facts or figures, just ad homs, and the usual declaration of superiority that all scoundrels fall back on.
You could offer an explanation of how you;d achieve this however;
and what you'd do with the resident British citizens who were born in Ireland?
And you can explain how you consider lands taken 1000 years ago to be an 'occupation' and what precedent there is for a withdrawal after so long? Also, why not explain why Europeans shouldn't leave America then, based on your own criteria, as that 'occupation' started far more recently.
The UK was invaded many, many times, by many different races. I have a pretty mixed bag of genes, my family tree includes such races as Scots, Irish, Norse, French and Roman. Does the Irish patr of me hate the French bit? Does the Scots part hate the Roman? Does the Scots part hate the Norse? Of course not, that would be absurd. As absurd as turning to terrorism over a thousand year old cause, when there are peaceful political solutions, in fact.
You could offer an explanation of how you;d achieve this however;
and what you'd do with the resident British citizens who were born in Ireland?
And you can explain how you consider lands taken 1000 years ago to be an 'occupation' and what precedent there is for a withdrawal after so long? Also, why not explain why Europeans shouldn't leave America then, based on your own criteria, as that 'occupation' started far more recently.
The UK was invaded many, many times, by many different races. I have a pretty mixed bag of genes, my family tree includes such races as Scots, Irish, Norse, French and Roman. Does the Irish patr of me hate the French bit? Does the Scots part hate the Roman? Does the Scots part hate the Norse? Of course not, that would be absurd. As absurd as turning to terrorism over a thousand year old cause, when there are peaceful political solutions, in fact.
What does that have to do with anything? You oversensitive, "Quick, get indignant in order to cover for some obscure and excessive guilt complex about Northern Ireland," folks are making a bigger deal out of your own illiteracy than I would have imagined.
I mean, really:
You know, pay attention to the discussion you're having or just shut up.
What's the point of repeating myself if you're not bothering to pay attention in the first place, Phlog? Answer me that, please. Why the fuck should I bother repeating myself over and over if you don't want to read and just want to throw a stupid fucking hissy fit?
I mean, hell ... you seem to have a problem with the fact that Omagh tempered American pop-culture support for the IRA.
I can only wonder why, given the tone and content of the rest of your bitchery.
MacZ said:
Well, y'all were criticizing Tiassa for his lack of knowledge into the Irish situation, so ...
And yeah, I know they established a new inquiry to deal with the cover-up.
(Side rant: why would anybody named Widgery be allowed in charge of uncovering the truth? "Widgery" just sounds dishonest. As in, "Blair's widgery 45 minute claim" or "The 2000 election, highlighted by widgery results in Florida ... " or something to that effect.)
Meh ... the situation in Afghanistan was old, in that they've been battling foreign invaders, whether American, Russian, British or Macedonian, throughout their history. The situation in Iraq is old in that the Sunni and Shiites have been carrying on their idiotic feud since the death of Mohammed.
I think it depends ... for example, there's an extensive hand-wringing over the bombing of Nagaski and Hiroshima, which, given that the Japanese have largely refused to acknowledge their own WWII atrocities, drives me up a fuckin' wall. But for less famous things, like America's continued interference in Central and South America, or to steal an example from Tiassa, the troops we sent to Russia during their civil war ... probably not.
tiassa said:
EVERYTHING YOU DOLT! Northern Ireland is full of British people. They were born there, there parents and grandparents etc were born there, all of whom were British. So you are going to
who have been living there for generations, and do what with them? Send them where, exactly? Do what with their homes, their livelyhoods?tiassa said:
Maybe you just skimmed the part where I said I was part Irish. So what do I have to feel guilty for?
We're illiterate because you are pretty crap at explaining yourself? You have one hell of an ego there. You had a run on sentence which didn't make much sense amidst the poor grammar, but we're inferior because we don't get your point?
Nope, I managed to salvage that much info from your grammatical train wreck of a sentence. What I said (do you actually bother reading replies?) was that Omagh was just one incident, and if American opinion hinged on just event, it shows how little you ever understood the situation. Perhaps you were being manipulated through your media, and switched opinions. It seems you had little knowledge to base your opinions on beforehand, so manipulation must have been easy.
Maybe you should visit this link to the BBC, look at the "Timeline: Bombings & Killings" scrolling section in the middle of the article, and look at the sheer number of atrocities committed, that people like you have supported via their ignorance;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_2515000/2515343.stm
Then, when you actually have a clue, come back and discuss. You might then want to retract some of the really, really stupid things you've said on this thread.
News in..
New socialist govenor of Hawaii declares independence. Pledges "To return Hawaii to it's native peoples."
Pentagon says "Troops in Hawaii on high alert, reaction force en route"
No?
I'm not totally without sympathy for the 'Irish voice'.
The diplock courts were inexcusable.
Bloody Sunday leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
The British Paratroop regiment could never be expected to maintain the peace they're trained to kill anything that moves and are best kept out of civilian areas. My little nephews a para and he's a fucking psycopath.
Anyway I tend to agree with MacZ and phlog on this.
The 'Irish voice' carries an American accent it should stop and listen to what the people of NI are actually saying.
Most of them are asking for a chance for peace.
Let us give it to them.
Dee Cee
New socialist govenor of Hawaii declares independence. Pledges "To return Hawaii to it's native peoples."
Pentagon says "Troops in Hawaii on high alert, reaction force en route"
No?
I'm not totally without sympathy for the 'Irish voice'.
The diplock courts were inexcusable.
Bloody Sunday leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
The British Paratroop regiment could never be expected to maintain the peace they're trained to kill anything that moves and are best kept out of civilian areas. My little nephews a para and he's a fucking psycopath.
Anyway I tend to agree with MacZ and phlog on this.
The 'Irish voice' carries an American accent it should stop and listen to what the people of NI are actually saying.
Most of them are asking for a chance for peace.
Let us give it to them.
Dee Cee
Here you go Tiassa, the results of people believing the 'occupied counties' should expel the Brits;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3772491.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3772491.stm
Phlogistician said:
Right. Political plantation theory is the height of self-determination.
The only real problem I have with the British in Northern Ireland is the self-righteous ignorance of history proudly advertised by many Brits. You seem to pretend that this situation can be defined by the last few years, and ignore the fact that the British were poor colonial masters until the Troubles forced the situation to the fore of the world for a brief period. Since the GFA, there's no point in discussing Northern Ireland with the British--history doesn't exist in that discussion.
But more disturbing to me is the ferocious nationalism driving the illiteracy of people like yourself and Red Devil. Perhaps if you'd just kept your mouth shut and let that discussion play out, you wouldn't be making such a poor example of yourself.
Perhaps you remember this post of yours? Maybe you shouldn't have inserted yourself as an advocate of someone else's self-righteous, indignant illiteracy.
I mean, really ... on the one hand, we've got Red Devil bitching about "sanctimonious Americans" in response to someone who generally agrees with his ranting declaration, "Get your occupying forces out of Germany, The United Kingdom, Iraq, Diego Garcia, Cuba, etc etc etc Go back to your isolationist self pity!"
Seriously, I point out where Americans started coming around to share a perspective he would be more comfortable with, and he throws a temper tantrum?
You sanctimonious illiterate twats need to check in with reality once in a while. You're living examples of why the British are periodically expelled from lands they've colonized. I mean, seriously ... you just don't seem to understand the world at all.
In the meantime, what does the result of an inherently cruel political system imply for a half-breed? I'd say the more important factor is where you choose to invest your half-wit.
Get off the throne. Your argument stinks enough of shite already.
I'm not your psychotherapist, but you obviously have some nationalist guilt complex if something as simple as pointing out the event that changed a large portion of the American conscience in a manner that more reflects your preferred view of society is something that can upset you so badly.
So you tell me, Phlog--Why are the words "Northern Ireland" like a red flag to a bull? What is it about those words that makes folks like you capitulate your sense of intellect? How do you become so blind in response to those words that you don't even understand what the hell you're ranting about?
It really is rather interesting to watch. It suggests that British folks, like many Americans, don't actually care about reality but just want someone to fight with.
And frankly, that's a really stupid way for you to behave.
So where's the run-on sentence in the following:
• Something about the Omagh bombing seems to transcend the typical level of atrocity amid the Troubles. It was, for one who bears no Irish blood, a moving moment. My symapthies to the occupied counties; as an American I understand the need to expel the British. But times changed, and much seemed to hinge on Omagh.
Please let me know. I'll try to keep short. Sentences under five words. Something like that. You know.
That better?
The alternative, of course, is that you could simply learn to read, Phlog. I can only accommodate your handicap so far before all communicative effect is gone.
Why don't we go back and look at your post, Phlog? Seems like a good idea.
Phlog said:
Facts? This from someone who pretends that plantation is the height of democracy?
(chortle!)
We in America have a democracy, too. We just managed it and prevented it from undertaking certain interests by extinguishing 95% of the indigenous population. That certainly cut down their potential voting power.
I particularly like how you complain that people aren't paying attention to facts, but then present this schoolyard pabulum as the essence of fact. We're all up to speed on that.
This political tripe is very commonplace, too. After proclaiming your need for facts, the degree of fact you choose to invoke is rather weak.
And?
So why do you think some Irish want the British gone? Apparently, since you discussed facts, it couldn't possibly be that the British were poor administrators of the colony, or that the British would continue to treat Catholics in the occupied counties poorly until the whole world was watching and saying, "Something ain't right here."
So what I'm wondering, Phlog, is where in that post did you say what you said you said?
So, your post, in short:
• You self righteous twats from the UK prefer facts
• Facts are only very vague political arguments, such as you have shown
• Americans who support the Irish are assholes
• Americans who support Ireland necessarily support the killing of innocent people
• Americans who support Ireland display complete ignorance
• You've been near terrorism before
• Those who support the expulsion of the British from Ireland are indiscriminate and obviously reacting to injustices that don't exist
What of that do I have wrong?
In the meantime, you did not say that Omagh was just one incident, and if American opinion hinged on just event, it shows how little you ever understood the situation.
I don't mind ferocious debate, but I would prefer that one of you bother to be honest from time to time.
Three last notes:
• You, of all people, should not raise grammar as an issue. You show your own difficulties writing coherent sentences, and compared to the common mistake of using a comma instead of a semicolon, if you can't write an accusing sentence properly you might wish to reconsider your position.
• You're trying to make a larger historical argument out of this in order to justify Red Devil's severe and ridiculous tantrum. Why?
• You're the epitome of what's wrong with the British argument in Northern Ireland: You have no sympathy for people who won't change religions in exchange for a meal. You know, the Bible has something to say about it. You know, the Bible ... that book that defines what you call the same faith? So if you're going to raise that argument, I suggest you do a little more research or buy a clue before embarrassing yourself on this issue any further.
If only life was as simple as your outlook, Phlog, then we could all be British.
crazy151drinker
Registered Senior Member
Now we are Brit bashing? Oh my, dont we have enough people to bitch about? The Islamic nuts for sure, and the French are easy pickings, but the Brits? What have they done to us? We havnt fought with them for almost 200 years! They are our best friends! Dont stab your buddy.....
Red Devil - You will find that some Americans are generally ignorant on British affairs, mostly they have their heads up their own arses looking after their own interests. You will also note that the arrogant ones such as Tiassa are the work shy, pot smoking assholes who have the nerve to say they represent the American view of the British. And It is useless conversing with Tiassa - he/she is generally stoned