What's Your Excuse for Not Believing?

[audible]

Hello sexy feet:

I answer your question with another question: What about the dead sea scrolls (old testament)? This is a recent discovery. The scrolls have been carbon dated and compared to modern hebrew texts. They are accurate. That leaves the Muslims with a lot of explaining to do.

I sorry woody I am at a loss, I was under the impression that you were an anti evolutionist, and did'nt believe in carbon dating.
or is it that it's only worth looking at, if it only goes back a few thousand years.
I surpose you cant carbon date any further back then.

 

[path]

Path,

Jesus said I'm just wasting my breath if I try to convince you. If you don't believe Moses and the prophets then I can not convince you even if I perform a supernatural act like raising someone from the dead. You still would not believe on Jesus. So what's the point? Jesus was right -- he gotcha figured out.

Yeah that paul was a real genius he sussed me alright, muhammed firgured me out too and said pretty much the same thing I also don't believe in the chupacabra or the lochness monster despite all the literature relating to them out there but they haven't yet come to print with thier own works and hence haven't figured me out yet.
Why are muslims and christians so impressed with the fact that thier holy books are so outlandish that they realized people wouldn't belive them and said so?
My main problem with your posts is your self righteous smugness I find it amusing that you base your hubris upon mythology. Didn't jesus implore his followers to be meek and humble or was that not in your copy?

 

[Silas]

Imagine you are perusing the internet and you see a world headline that reads like this:

Zombies Seen Walking the Streets of Jerusalem by Night

You click on the headline and watch footage that beats Michael Jackson's thriller video, with people unearthing themselves from the ground. But they don't look like zombies -- they look like ordinary people. It's on all the television channels, and scientists are mystified. Some say it's a trick, an illusion of some sort, others say it must be a paranormal phenomena. During an interview one of the so-called "zombies" says that Jesus Christ is for real. Non-Christian religious leaders insist it is an act of the devil because it doesn't agree with their religious truths. The so called "zombies" somehow dissappear before they can be evaluated by scientists. Some people believe there is a UFO or an unknown force or unknown life form that abducted them. Others believe the whole thing was just a big hoax.

What would your response be?

The Bible tells us what your response would be if you are a non-believer:

Luke 16:31

And he (Jesus) said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Is Jesus a liar?

According to the Bible this "zombie" story happened two thousand years ago:


Matthew 27:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It didn't make a difference back then either, has humanity changed ? :bugeye:

Thank you for highlighting the single largest piece of evidence that the Gospels are fiction.

To quote Thomas Paine in The Age Of Reason

Had it been the prophets who (as we are told) had formerly prophesied of these things, they must have had a great deal to say. They could have told us everything and we should have had posthumous prophecies, with notes and commentaries upon the first, a little better at least than we have now. Had it been Moses and Aaron and Joshua and Samuel and David, not an unconverted Jew had remained in all Jerusalem.​

It is evident that if such a completely incredible event had taken place it would have been mentioned by all the Evangelists, and not just Matthew, to say nothing of other historians of the time (who are hard put to it to mention a single deed Christ is supposed to have accomplished anyway).

 

[camphlps]

Yes it does seem that the previous prophets and teachers would say the same as matthew. However, They spoke to a age and culture of that time as matthew and other aposiles spoke to the culture of their own time. What they say appear to be different, yet are very much the same. Daniel and John speak symbolicly of the same revalation, thats the only one i can think of off of my head.

Course i do know that moses had a speach problem, and did little preaching. Most of his teachings are through other people, same as jesus. Jesus would use other, such as healings to show others his teachings.

Im sure if i spent some time, i could find more simularities u are looking for.

 

[Silas]

Sorry, this is actually not to do with the different testimonies of the OT and the NT. Paine was specifically stating that if Woody's "Zombies" were Moses and Aaron and Joshua and Samuel and David - ie if they had come back (as they are supposed to have done, they are not named, but it does say that "saints" came back to life - and i in Jesus' time the only saints were the OT prophets, surely?) then there would not even be Judaism any more, since the Jewish prophets would have converted everybody. But the most important thing is that the widespread dead coming back to life, instead of getting an entire book to itself, as Paine suggested is its due, were it true, it's just passed off in one paragraph and never mentioned by anybody else. Therefore at least that section of the Gospel according to Matthew must be entirely fictional.

 

[matnay]

The problem with religion is that it forbids the believer to doubt or even question itself. This is contrary to wisdom, but indicative of ignorance.

 

[Woody]

Go ahead, believe what you want to. It's your soul, do with it what you want. I was just like many of you. If I didn't care I wouldn't say anything at all -- I'd just say oh well another one goes to hell, big deal.

I'd rather be dead than be the person I was before I found Christ. I know the supernatural is out there, I know the devil is real, and I don't want any part of it.

So go ahead and evolutionize your evolution -- a new day a new theory -- and today's evidence will become another freakish joke from the art gallery like some of its predecessors.

Jesus hasn't changed, but if you don't think you are worthy of eternal life go ahead and spit on him like everyone else has. 200 years from now nobody will even remember who you are, but everyone will still be talking about him, and I will be wherever Jesus went -- Praise God amen halleluia -- yes I'm a fanatic about him. He waits for you -- don't leave this world without him.

I'll be glad when I check out of this place called earth, it stinks.

 

[spidergoat]

OK Goat guy,

So you think it's a cop-out that I don't go out and prove Jesus is right.

No, I think it's a cop out that you are trying to prove Jesus is right.

Why don't you just express the teachings of Jesus so people can see for themselves if they are worthwhile to adopt?

This whole thing about proof is like trying to play the scientific game, and you don't know how, it's also unnecessary. You also try to play the fear game, and that's just an insult. Eternal life happens in the here and now, the kingdom of heaven is all around you, do you see it?

Do you suppose anyone will remember you even 100 years after you die?

Nothing ever dies, because nothing ever really has a separate existence in the first place. Feeling unity, not just believing in it, is eternal life.

Yet hundreds of millions of people remember Jesus even after 2000 years?

They remember an echo of his wisdom, a caricature, but no one remembers the man.

There never will be a proof or disproof of God. The dispute is settled in a person's own heart.

That's my point, so what are you doing?

The quote is from the Gospel of Thomas, and the meaning can only be individually realized, but it eludes to the fact that Truth is innately both troubling and astonishing, and it's not what is obvious only from scripture. So, Jesus' message was not simply a matter of what to believe. It's something like the difference between a baptism of the heart or enlightenment, vs. the ritual ceremony of dipping yourself in water.

 

[path]

Go ahead, believe what you want to. It's your soul, do with it what you want. I was just like many of you. If I didn't care I wouldn't say anything at all -- I'd just say oh well another one goes to hell, big deal.
.

No you were never like me or else you would not be you

 

[Raithere]

Woody,

Let me see if I can summarize your argument:

People didn't believe it then.
People don't believe it now.

Therefore it is true.

?:bugeye

~Raithere

 

[Woody]

How do y'all like my new avatar. It's Java Man/Gibbon -- preached as the missing link when I was in high school. Pretty good artwork -- cute ain't he?

He looks kind of like some other avatars on this forum.

If you gave Bubbles the chimp a shave and hair cut would he look more human than Jacko? Who looks more evolved Michael Jackson, Bubbles the Chimp, or Java?

The original Java man was supposed to have an infant nursing at his breast, like when men had mammary glands. Some still do :bugeye:

They decided against the breasted version of the early 1900 artwork because it was a little too riske' for the time. Let's see, what would they call him "son of java the mighty missing link, she-him of all humanity." Hail the great hemaphrodite idol! He/she does it all -- half man half gibbon, and any other stray bones we can find within 100 feet.

I better stop before I break a rib laughing.

 

[spidergoat]

Sweeet avatar. Woody was my first college roomate's nickname, and he had bright red hair like woody the woodpecker.

 

[spidergoat]

Who looks more evolved Michael Jackson, Bubbles the Chimp, or Java?

They all look like Homos to me.

I don't see why any of them should be considered more or less evolved. Chimps can survive indefinitely in an African jungle without packing in food, clothing, or supplies of any kind. If evolution means adapting to fit the environment, then Bubbles wins. Michael Jackson, although successful, seems ill adapted for his role as pop star, pedophilia being rather unpopular. Java man probably fell somewhere in between- having discovered the joys of music and primitive culture, while still avoiding the paparazzi. He probably wished for some insect repellent though, and a beer.

 

[the preacher]

I'll be glad when I check out of this place called earth, it stinks.

if you dont like it then leave, no one will miss you, "200 years from now nobody will even remember who you are, but everyone will still be talking about him,"(him being the tooth fairy, santa claus, because you could not be talking about,caeser, or tutanhamun,or even henry the eighth as these people actually existed.).
you know that IQ you pasted up,( 136 I believe) are you sure you did'nt prefix the one(1).
are you overdosing on the amen channel.
would you prefer we all talk to you like rednecks, causin Iz can do that fur yer,
Iz nod deres ah gawd, causin the preacher man done told me.
wow you thick.

 

[Woody]

Yeah,

That's right preach.

When you die your IQ will be zero, and it's getting there fast.

Santa Claus is a 20th century concoction of the Saint Nicholus, a known person from many centuries ago. We can thank coca-cola for this new God of materialism that so many people worship in place of Jesus at Christmas time.

Tooth fairy -- a nice childhood mystery. I only had two wisdom teeth and they came in on the right side, does that mean I'm half as wise or more evolved? Negros typically have eight wisdom teeth, or so my father said, and he was a dentist. I'll take his word for it, bless him. I'm caucasian, does that mean I'm better, and more evolved than they are? Hitler thought so, and the evolution clan can have him.

Caesar -- now there's an interesting subject. His decree for a world census put Mary and Joseph at the right place and time to have a child in Bethelem, fulfilling the old testament prophesy about the messiah being born in Bethlehem by a virgin.

As I orginally stated, if you don't believe Moses and the prophets you will never ever believe there is a Jesus, though I or anyone else was given the power to take you out to the graveyard and resurrect somebody you knew and cared about, and say here: This proves Jesus. I know this because the Jesus I believe in and you don't believe in told me this is true and I hope this answers Raither's question.

Here are some Old Testament prophesies concerning Christ:

ISAIAH 7

13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

ISAIAH 9

6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Bethlehem is the city of David. Mary is the virgin. Immanuel translates as "God with Us" from the original Hebrew text.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

your dates are a little out woody, santa claus is 1900 century.
The most important single source for our modern day version of Santa Claus comes from the Christmas poem A Visit From St. Nicholas( also known as The Night Before Christmas) by Clement C. Moore. Written for his children in 1823, the family poem was later published for the general public and included what became the now famous picture of Santa Claus by Thomas Nast

the origins, of the tooth fairy goes back as far as the middle ages, viking had a tooth fee which was given to children.

and you seem to like caeser so.
Was Jesus Christus really the deified Julius Caesar?
The Italian linguist Francesco Carotta claims in his book War Jesus Caesar? 2000 Jahre Anbetung einer Kopie (Was Jesus Casar? 2000 years of worship of a copy, Wilhelm Goldmann Verlag, München) that Jesus was no more than a copy of the deified Julius Caesar! Caesar was murdered in 44 BC and later deified by Emperor Augustus. A great temple was built for him on the Forum Romanum. The picture on the left has been copied from an aureus (gold coin) of Octavian (the later Emperor Augustus). It represents the temple of Divus Julius (the deified Julius). His cult was especially popular in the eastern part of the Roman Empire and suddenly stopped in the last quarter of the first century AD, when Christianity became popular. The Christians are first mentioned (and persecuted) in the time of Emperor Nero (54-68 AD), the last emperor of the Julian-Claudian house which descended from Caesar. Then came Emperor Vespasian, a general who had crushed the Jewish rebellion. Josephus, a rebel leader who was captured by Vespasian, saved his life by predicting that Vespasian would become emperor. When that did happen, he was freed and added, as usual, the name of his former master Flavius Vespasian to his own. Josephus also plays a part in my stories.

Is this a likely theory? I haven't read this book either, but it seems very unlikely that Jesus never existed at all. I could imagine that Caesar became a kind of oriental fertility god and that Jesus later took over this function. In the Shiite Islam Ali, who was also murdered, took over this character in turn. When the Caesar cult was abolished by Vespasian - if he did that - it must have left a vacuum. I can imagine that under these circumstances another murder victim - Jesus - took over the empty place. It is possible that at this time hardly anything was known about the real Jesus and that elements from Caesar's life were woven into the biography of Jesus. It is known that the birth story of Moses was derived from the story about a Mesopotamian king. In my opinion other elements are derived from the life of Pharaoh Akhnaten.

Caesar regarded himself as a son of Venus, not only metaphorically because he seduced a lot of married women, but also literally. Temples of Venus and Aphrodite were often converted into churches of the Holy Virgin. The poet Virgil, who lived in time time of Emperor Augustus, alludes in one of his poems to a kind of Messiah. Before Vespasian became emperor it was widely believed that somebody from the east would come to rule the world. This contributed to the outbreak of the Jewish revolt.

Julius Caesar was popular among the Jews, so much is certain. Cleopatra felt betrayed by the Jews in Alexandria, who sided with Caesar. Suetonius writes that countless foreigners mourned at his funeral, especially the Jews, who kept wailing for nights on end (Caesar, 84). He suggests that Caesar may have ignored all warnings and deliberately chosen for martyrdom. ok

Many things in the Gospels also occur in the biographies of Caesar, writes Carotta. Originally the Christians were called chrestiani by Tacitus in stead of christiani. Suetonius writes that Jews in Rome started riots at the instigation of Chrestus (Claudius, 25) but that may have been a Jewish leader who claimed to be the Messiah and not some Christian. The Greek word chrestos means 'good, mild, favorable', while christos means 'anointed'. Perhaps that means nothing, because Tacitus and Suetonius thought that 'the anointed one' made no sense and was probably a mistake for 'the good one'. Jesus was called 'the anointed one'. The crucifiction is, according to Carotta, the cremation of Caesar. The Sanhedrin (the council of Jewish scriptural scholars) was the Senate. Carotta also has a theory about Paul.

http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engjesus.html

 

[pavlosmarcos]

Here are some Old Testament prophesies concerning Christ:

ISAIAH 7

13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

ISAIAH 9

6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

but everbody says his name is jesus not immanue.l

and it also says in your bible.
The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David, romans 1:3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh. acts 2:29-30 Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
: Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne.
Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies Matthew 1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

and this .
isaiah 7:13-16 And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?
:Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.
: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.
: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the NT.

 

[one_raven]

I thought his given name was supposed to be Y'eshua (Joshua).

 

[Silas]

Go ahead, believe what you want to. It's your soul, do with it what you want. I was just like many of you. If I didn't care I wouldn't say anything at all -- I'd just say oh well another one goes to hell, big deal.

I'd rather be dead than be the person I was before I found Christ. I know the supernatural is out there, I know the devil is real, and I don't want any part of it.

So go ahead and evolutionize your evolution -- a new day a new theory -- and today's evidence will become another freakish joke from the art gallery like some of its predecessors.

Jesus hasn't changed, but if you don't think you are worthy of eternal life go ahead and spit on him like everyone else has. 200 years from now nobody will even remember who you are, but everyone will still be talking about him, and I will be wherever Jesus went -- Praise God amen halleluia -- yes I'm a fanatic about him. He waits for you -- don't leave this world without him.

I'll be glad when I check out of this place called earth, it stinks.

For pity's sake, what kind of an attitude is that??! :bugeye:

What I was trying to do was point out the total illogic of highlighting the single least credible episode in the entire New Testament canon in order to try to encourage people to believe in Christ.

As I orginally stated, if you don't believe Moses and the prophets you will never ever believe there is a Jesus

I'm only really qualified to comment on this as an ex-Christian, but I just don't see that belief in the Old Testament prophets is remotely necessary for believing in Jesus. Moses and the prophets never said anything specific to relate to Joshua bar-Joseph of Nazareth, not born until several centuries after the last of them died. Much of their teaching was subverted by Jesus anyway, otherwise what is the point of Christianity?

You express derision for the theory of Evolution, but nobody mentioned Evolution. You express a great deal of bitterness, in fact, and longing for the afterlife is not in concert with Jesus's teachings. I would suggest you have a word with your preacher.

 

[Silas]

As I was humming and hawing over my post, above, I wondered whether to pre-empt your answering me with Isaiah. Turns out you edited your post and put the Isaiah stuff in. Isaiah 7: 14 looks very pretty and meaningful on its own. Reading the whole of Isaiah 7 puts a considerably different shine on things. Let's leave aside the word "virgin" (Hebrew: almah, which means any young woman, virgin or not - the Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah), the context of the entire passage is to do with King Ahaz and how he was to deal with encroaching Syria and Assyria. It's all very well quoting

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.[/quote] without even considering the whole passage:

Now it came about in the days of Ahaz, the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but could not conquer it.
2. When it was reported to the house of David, saying, "The Arameans have camped in Ephraim," his heart and the hearts of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake with the wind.
3. Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out now to meet Ahaz, you and your son Shear-jashub, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, on the highway to the fuller's field,
4. and say to him, `Take care and be calm, have no fear and do not be fainthearted because of these two stubs of smoldering firebrands, on account of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.
5. `Because Aram, with Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, has planned evil against you, saying,
6. "Let us go up against Judah and terrorize it, and make for ourselves a breach in its walls and set up the son of Tabeel as king in the midst of it,"
7. thus says the Lord GOD: "It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass.
8. "For the head of Aram is Damascus and the head of Damascus is Rezin (now within another 65 years Ephraim will be shattered, so that it is no longer a people),
9. and the head of Ephraim is Samaria and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah. If you will not believe, you surely shall not last."
10. Then the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
11. "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven."
12. But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD !"
13. Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well?
14. "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a [virgin] will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
15. "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
16. "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
​

God speaks to Ahaz through Isaiah about the immediate problem - two marauding enemy kings. And the answer is, "A child will be born, and before that child is old enough to tell right from wrong, the Kings will be defeated and will no longer be a problem." And as a confirmation of this, Isaiah repeats his prophecy in the next chapter, having provided the child he was talking about:

3. So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
4. for before the boy knows how to cry out `My father' or `My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."​

These events occurred in the region of 700 years before the birth of Christ. If Isaiah was prophesying Jesus, how would that help Ahaz? There would scarcely be any point in recording the incident!​