What's Your Excuse for Not Believing?

Woody

Musical Creationist
Registered Senior Member
Imagine you are perusing the internet and you see a world headline that reads like this:

Zombies Seen Walking the Streets of Jerusalem by Night

You click on the headline and watch footage that beats Michael Jackson's thriller video, with people unearthing themselves from the ground. But they don't look like zombies -- they look like ordinary people. It's on all the television channels, and scientists are mystified. Some say it's a trick, an illusion of some sort, others say it must be a paranormal phenomena. During an interview one of the so-called "zombies" says that Jesus Christ is for real. Non-Christian religious leaders insist it is an act of the devil because it doesn't agree with their religious truths. The so called "zombies" somehow dissappear before they can be evaluated by scientists. Some people believe there is a UFO or an unknown force or unknown life form that abducted them. Others believe the whole thing was just a big hoax.

What would your response be?

The Bible tells us what your response would be if you are a non-believer:

Luke 16:31

And he (Jesus) said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Is Jesus a liar?

According to the Bible this "zombie" story happened two thousand years ago:


Matthew 27:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


It didn't make a difference back then either, has humanity changed ? :bugeye:
 
Being raised from the dead isn't quite the impossible thing that it used to be. So, no, things haven't changed that much, I would look for a naturalistic explanation. Zombies in Haiti, for instance, are caused by a drug which creates a catatonic state.
 
Besides, I believe Jesus was a wise teacher, but this kind of story is a later fabrication by superstitious priests, or it is a distortion of a parable.
 
Spider guy:

Given this set of "hypothetical" events -- you apparently prove Jesus's point. Many people try to make him a liar, but no-one yet has succeeded. The jewish pharisees gave it their best shot though.

I'd like to hear what the jews say today about the body of Jesus, so I can validate bible prophesy concerning the jews in modern times.
 
Woody said:
Spider guy:

Given this set of "hypothetical" events -- you apparently prove Jesus's point. Many people try to make him a liar, but no-one yet has succeeded. The jewish pharisees gave it their best shot though.

I'd like to hear what the jews say today about the body of Jesus, so I can validate bible prophesy concerning the jews in modern times.

Ever notice that when the faithful want to make a point such as these they have no choice but to venture into the hypothetical realm
 
Path,

I notice that you didn't prove "Jesus" to be a liar. If he didn't exist then this concocted statement in Luke 16:31 must be a lie too, right? You would believe if you saw all this happening, right?

Need I labor the point anymore? Jesus said it -- now proove the statement wrong about not believing though someone arose from the dead. You have confirmed his statement 100%.

Let's see you go up against Jesus, big guy! Prove my Jesus is a liar! You're on -- be the first, make history! Then Christianity will no longer be a problem, because all Christians will be proven wrong.
 
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Woody said:
Path,

I notice that you didn't prove "Jesus" to be a liar. If he didn't exist then this concocted statement in Luke 16:31 must be a lie too, right? You would believe if you saw all this happening, right?

Need I labor the point anymore? Jesus said it -- now proove the statement wrong about not believing though someone arose from the dead. You have confirmed his statement 100%.

Let's see you go up against Jesus, big guy! Prove my Jesus is a liar! You're on -- be the first, make history! Then Christianity will no longer be a problem, because all Christians will be proven wrong.

Dear woodman show me ONE proof that jesus really lived (not hearsay from 200 years after he lived), thank you ;) Oh and if you manage that task prove he was divine
 
you ask for proof of jesus lies, this is what it says in you bible.
Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 )



Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 )



Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 )



Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 )



And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 )



And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 )



If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 )



It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 )



On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 )



A lot of Christians ignore what Jesus actually says in the Bible. They also tend to add things to the actual words to make them say something else. If you honestly and truthfully read these quotes, without adding to them, it is very easy to see that Jesus is not saying that God will think about your prayers. He says God will grant all your prayers. Clearly, God doesn’t grant all prayers and this proves that Jesus was a habitual liar.

thanks to evilbible

but no need to worry he never existed.
 
Woody said:
I'd like to hear what the jews say today about the body of Jesus, so I can validate bible prophesy concerning the jews in modern times.
Well, my Grandfather was an observant Jew, and he liked the theory expounded in a popular book that Jesus escaped his execution, his twin brother being killed in his place. He ran off to the south of France, got married, and raised a family.
 
Musta:

Jesus had a very simple response for you:

James 4:3

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Your response makes a nice song though:

"Oh Lord, won't you buy me a mercedes benz?" -- Janis Joplin

"I'm standing next to a mountain and cut it down with the edge of my hand" -- Jimmie Hendrix -- Voodoo Child

:D
 
Spiderman,

What did your grandfather's Rabbi have to say about the body of Jesus? Just curious -- not that it prooves anything.
 
My Grandfather never mentioned anything about a rabbi that I can remember, he was kind of an independent thinker.
 
Path,

Jesus said I'm just wasting my breath if I try to convince you. If you don't believe Moses and the prophets then I can not convince you even if I perform a supernatural act like raising someone from the dead. You still would not believe on Jesus. So what's the point? Jesus was right -- he gotcha figured out. ;)
 
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Thing is, this can be all tripped up by questioning the validicity of the bible. God himself i can believe in, but how many times has the bible been re-written and re-interpretted to suit the rulers of earlier civilazations?
 
Hello sexy feet:

I answer your question with another question: What about the dead sea scrolls (old testament)? This is a recent discovery. The scrolls have been carbon dated and compared to modern hebrew texts. They are accurate. That leaves the Muslims with a lot of explaining to do.
 
Woody said:
Path,

Jesus said I'm just wasting my breath if I try to convince you. If you don't believe Moses and the prophets then I can not convince you even if I perform a supernatural act like raising someone from the dead. You still would not believe on Jesus. So what's the point? Jesus was right -- he gotcha figured out. ;)
Jesus told me you'd give up...........quitter.

I say stop focusing on these magical acts, they might have played well in the Judean desert, but people are a little more sophisticated now. The teachings of Jesus were profound and subtle, things like-

Yeshua said:
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
 
OK Goat guy,

So you think it's a cop-out that I don't go out and prove Jesus is right.

Let's try this another way:

Do you suppose anyone will remember you even 100 years after you die?

Yet hundreds of millions of people remember Jesus even after 2000 years?

And if the world lasts another 2000 years, ya know what -- people will still be debating it, because people couldn't agree when the proofs were right in front of their noses 2000 years ago.

Jesus knew human nature better than anyone.

There never will be a proof or disproof of God. The dispute is settled in a person's own heart.

I believe in the supernatural because of some miraculous things that happened to me. I also believe there is a devil, and I was one of his. If seeing is believing then God becomes a baby sitter that must show everyone he is in charge all the time.

The Bible tells me that the just shall live by faith not by sight. :D

PS could you please explain this quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

I understand the seeking and finding part because it is in the Bible. The other part of it I don't have a clue about -- is it Islamic?
 
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Woody said:
:) Let's see you go up against Jesus, big guy! Prove my Jesus is a liar! You're on -- be the first, make history! Then Christianity will no longer be a problem, because all Christians will be proven wrong.

Exegesis of Mathew 24 verse by verse
The 24th chapter of Matthew text is taken from
The New Testament in Modern Speech
Translated by Richard F. Weymouth, the Pilgrim Press, Boston, 1930, 1912
Matthew 24:

1 Jesus had left the Temple and was going on His way, when His disciples came and called His attention to the Temple buildings.

[The disciples bring to Jesus’ attention about the Jewish temple]

2 "You see all these?" He replied; "in solemn truth I tell you that there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be pulled down."

[Jesus at that time is not speaking to us. He was speaking to his disciples, and how his prophecies will directly affect them.]

3 Afterwards He was on the Mount of Olives and was seated there when the disciples came to Him, apart from the others, and said, "Tell us when this will be; and what will be the sign of your Coming and of the Close of the Age?"

[Sign of coming = 2nd coming
Close of the Age = end of the material world in existence.

The address on the envelope Jesus is being questioned by, and is responding to, His apostles and no one else here in this 24th chapter of Matthew. The text goes out of its way to communicate this. This is not an envelope addressed Occupant but rather addressed specifically to the apostles. The entire discourse shows the message was for the First Century Apostles, and how the close of the age will impact the First Century Apostles, and not concerned with people living thousands of years in the future. Please follow the "us's" and "you's" etc. that I have put in bold formatting, to see exactly whom Jesus was speaking to. ]

4 "Take care that no one misleads you," answered Jesus;

[Because this conversation is between Jesus and his disciples, and therefore "You" = First Century Apostles. The warnings are heard by First Century Apostles and therefore are to the First Century Apostles, and NOT to people thousands of years distant.]

5 "for many will come assuming my name and saying `I am the Christ;' and they will mislead many.

6 And before long you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Do not be alarmed, for such things must be; but the End is not yet.

["Before Long" = Soon]

[The "before long" is reinforced in the Greek by the word "μελλω" meaning, "to be on the point of doing or suffering something".]

7 For nation will rise in arms against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places;

8 But all these miseries are but like the early pains of childbirth.

["Pains of Childbirth" = Soon]

[Again, no room for thousands of years. This was all due and very soon.]

9 "At that time they will deliver you up to punishment and will put you to death; and you will be objects of hatred to all the nations because you are called by my name.

[Persecution being fulfilled in first century is another indication that this is a First Century event. The book by William McBirnie, "The Search for the Twelve Apostles" claims to document how, within the First Century, all these Apostles to whom Jesus spoke ended up being persecuted, some even to death. And again, Jesus is talking to the "YOU" of the First Century Apostles, and not to every Tom, Dick and Harry since then.]

10 Then will many stumble and fall, and they will betray one another and hate one another.

11 Many false prophets will rise up and lead multitudes astray;

12 and because of the prevalent disregard of God's law the love of the great majority will grow cold;

[Apostasy Fulfilled in First Century

"The Apostasy" was a daily fact of First Century church life. Judas Iscariot, and Ananias & Sapphira were apostates near the beginning of the Christian era, and toward the end of the First Century, 1st John 2:18 records the then current existence of not one, but many, "anti-Christs". Paul even names some apostates

"For Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me… Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds… he has vigorously opposed our teaching." (2nd Timothy 4:10-1 5)]

13 but those who stand firm to the End shall be saved.

[ "Stand Firm To End" = Within Lifetime ]

[This is just one of several places within the New Testament where it is indicated that the Second Coming is something these Apostles (and others of that century) could, if they "stood firm", hope to see within their lifetime.

Other references are: Heb. 3:6, 14; Rev. 2:25,26 etc. The "shall be saved" is not the "instant-karma" salvation Televangelists hawk on their gaudy TV shows, but rather the context talks about being saved from the destruction that was due to take place upon the Earth when the excrement hit the fan during "days of vengeance" (Luke 21:22) at the Second Coming. ]

14 And this Good News of the Kingdom shall be proclaimed throughout the whole world to set the evidence before all the Gentiles; and then the End will come.

[ Gospel -> Whole Earth: 1st Century Also The New Testament claims that well before the 1st Century ended the entire world had ALREADY been evangelized with the gospel. Examine the following two verses for confirmation of this claim:

”So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." (Rm 10: 17,18 RSV)] ... ...The revelation of the mystery...now is manifested and...According to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations. [Rom16:25-26]

The gospel… has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Col. 1:23 NIV) ]

15 "When you have seen (to use the language of the Prophet Daniel) the `Abomination of Desolation', standing in the Holy Place" --let the reader observe those words--

[ "Holy Place" = First Century Temple

In case no one noticed, there hasn't been a temple of Jehovah to "stand in" since the Jewish temple got razed in 70 AD. Once again, this points to a 1st Century era.

As for Christian fundamentalists who teach that another temple may some day be constructed, does that mean that God is behind said construction, thus making it a "Holy Place"? Can just anybody, at any time, with or without prior authorization from God, go around building temples that somehow then automatically become "holy"? If so, then what of the Mormon temples? What if all the Atheists got together, and built a temple there in Jerusalem? Constructing an object that looks like a living human body (i.e. a statue) or a "holy" temple does not make said object a living human body or a "holy" temple. ]

16 "then let those who are in Judaea escape to the hills;

17 let him who is on the roof not go down to fetch what is in his house;

18 nor let him who is outside the city stay to pick up his outer garment.

19 And alas for the women who at that time are with child or have infants!

20 "But pray that your flight may not be in winter, nor on the Sabbath;

21 for it will be a time of great suffering, such as never has been from the beginning of the world till now, and assuredly never will be again.

[First Century Israel

These phrases "those who are in Judaea" and "on a Sabbath" are a big hint that in location, this scenario is placed in the Israel of yesteryear. Another clue is the mentioning of people being up on roofs, indicates the flat roofs that were common back then during the First Century. These HINTS hint of First Century Israel, and NOT modern day Los Angeles or Tokyo.]

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would escape; but for the sake of God's own People those days will be cut short.

[I hope that modern theologians are not the ones allowed to define the word "short" in this verse. If so, the suffering may last for thousands of years!!! ]

23 "If at that time any one should say to you, `See, here is the Christ!' or `Here!' give no credence to it.

24 For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, displaying wonderful signs and prodigies, so as to deceive, were it possible, even God's own People.

25 Remember, I have forewarned you.

["Remember" = Alive = First Century

Jesus couldn't ask these people to stop in the middle of all these future disasters to remember what he had told them years in their past, unless they would yet be alive in the midst of all these future disasters. No future generations are in view here. ]

26 If therefore they should say to you, `See, He is in the Desert!' do not go out there: or `See, He is indoors in the room!' do not believe it.

27 For just as the lightning flashes in the east and is seen to the very west, so will be the Coming of the Son of Man.

[Visibility = Problem for Preterist View

As with all things Christian, this doctrine of the Second Coming is fractured amongst various splinter groups. One such group, called the "Preterist", (and even this small splinter group is further splintered into even smaller groups) more or less believe that Jesus did return, however he returned in an "invisible" returning in 70 AD, and that's why everybody missed it.

The wording of Matthew, however, seems to contradict this belief. Matthew implies that if you were facing west- maybe toward where the sun just "set" an hour ago, and lightning strikes in the east, even miles behind your back, you can not help but see the entire sky light up. Likewise, Jesus is saying that his return will be so obvious and visible, that even if you weren't looking for it, you couldn't help but see it. Thus groups that have advocated an invisible "Second Coming" of Jesus do so in contradiction to what Jesus himself taught. The reason Jesus' return was not noticed in the First Century (or in 1914 if you're a JW) is not because it was invisible, but rather because it never happened. ]

28 Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures flock together.

29 "But immediately after those times of distress the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed her light, the stars will fall from the firmament, and the forces which control the heavens will be disordered and disturbed.

[Immediately = First Century

Having already established that previous events were predicted to take place within the First Century, these remaining events, (i.e. the end of the universe as we know it) which were to immediately follow, would also have to be within the First Century as well. Immediately ≠ 2000 years. Remember, this text is also designed to be read by first century people, NOT to fool them. ]

30 Then will appear the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky; and then will all the nations of the earth lament, when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory.

["Immediately…Then" = First Century

Next, a "sign" is said to appear in the sky, following all the other sky disturbances mentioned above.

The use of the "then's" implies a fast-paced sequence which does not allow for any theorized thousand -year "gaps": "Then will appear the Sign…then will all nations lament". Thus, once again, the era is locked into the First Century. Also, the "Son of Man" theme is the same as in all the other 2nd Coming texts, texts whose fulfillment were likewise promised within the lifetime of the First Century hearers.]

31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-blast, and they will bring together His own People to Him from north, south, east and west--from one extremity of the world to the other.

[Yet Another Problem for the Preterist View

As the Preterists try to explain how Jesus returned invisibly in the First Century, they also need to explain how this verse was fulfilled without anyone noticing. How do you hide a worldwide infestation of billions of angels fluttering about in the sky while blowing horns at maximum volume? The preterists "answer" this via a common Christian dodge- they hide behind figurative language.]

32 "Now learn from the fig-tree the lesson it teaches. As soon as its branches have now become soft and it is bursting into leaf, you all know that summer is near.

33 So you also, when you see all these signs, may be sure that He is near--at your very door.

["When YOU See" = First Century Apostles

Jesus tells his Apostles "when you see all these signs". Not "if" or "maybe" but when. Jesus was thus guaranteeing them that all these signs would take place within their lifetime, including the Second Coming. Likewise note the reference to knowing summer is near if spring is already in bloom- yet another indication of a very short time span being predicted. It doesn't require long convoluted theoretical theology about this being a "prediction" of Israel being reborn in 1948- the simplest explanation is usually best- Jesus was due to come in a short time, from THEIR perspective.

"At Your Very Door" = First Century

The phrase "He is near--at your very door" implies a few things. First, it implies the very next step will bring Jesus through the door. Second, whose "door" was he near? The Apostle's "door". ]

34 I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.

[Appendix A, contain 52 different translations of verse 34]

"Present Generation" = First Century

There is much more to be said about verse 34 and its key word "generation." For now, let me point out that this 34th verse does not exist in a vacuum; it is the culmination of the last several verses, indeed, the whole chapter, all time references, and all of which lead up a specific point in time: Jesus' Second Coming, and THAT within their (not YOUR) lifetime. The context allows no other interpretation. Look at Appendix B for “what the scholars say”.

"Trust Me, I'm Not Lying" Jesus precedes the prophecy with "I tell you in solemn truth" and follows it in verse #35 with a claim that his words would outlast even the Universe. These facts should be a major hint this prophecy was an extremely important issue for him, and he wanted to be dead sure that nobody misunderstood him. In his own mind, even though he sincerely believed that he'd be back within that century, he was sincerely wrong. He did not, within the lifetime of that generation, return in the clouds, in the glory of God, with hordes of angels, with trumpets blowing. His prophecy turned out to be false, and that makes him a false prophet.

"All These Things" = Complete Package

Jesus says emphatically that "all these things" would happen before his then current generation had passed away. Jesus presents the entire package as a "take it or leave it" situation, picking and choosing not allowed. Some "explanations" of this verse have attempted to slice & dice the 24th chapter into "some for back then, some for now, and maybe… some for the future". This fragmenting of the chapter is not allowed by Jesus' clear statement "all these things". ANY apologetic theory that tries to explain away this "problem chapter" has to treat the chapter as a whole, and explain how all of it happened or didn't happen. Of course, since the date for the destruction (v. 2) of the Jewish temple is firmly established in history at 70 AD, and everything in this chapter is promised within a short time frame, this entire chapter is thus locked into the First Century, from which it can not escape.]

35 Earth and sky will pass away, but it is certain that my words will not pass away.

36 "But as to that day and the exact time no one knows--not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

[Within Certain Limits ≠ Exact "Day & Time"

Some have quibbled in the best Clintonian tradition that Jesus' no-show can't be objected to because Jesus said no one knows the exact day & time. The exact day & time Jesus never gave, but I bet if he had, the apologetics would invent an excuse for that blooper, too. Jesus didn't give the exact year, or month, or day, or hour, or minute- but so what? He gave limits- time limits, an "expiration date" if you will, beyond which, if he hadn't returned by then, he would become a FALSE PROPHET. He himself said he'd be back before that generation died off, therefore within the lifetime of his Apostles. As to the exact millisecond within that generational limit that he was due back, it doesn't matter. What matters is that his "expiration date" long since expired. Christians should deal with that LOG in their theological eye, and ignore the splinter as to what exact second within that time frame he was due.]

37 For as it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the Coming of the Son of Man.

38 At that time, before the Deluge, men were busy eating and drinking, taking wives or giving them, up to the very day when Noah entered the Ark,

39 nor did they realise any danger till the Deluge came and swept them all away; so will it be at the Coming of the Son of Man.

[Noah's Flood Was Within Noah's Generation

The flood that "Noah" warned everyone about was due within "Noah's" generation, not 10,000 years later. Jesus promised his Apostles that, as it was with "Noah", so also with the Second Coming. Therefore, the Second Coming was due within their lifetime. NOTE: Some may have noticed that the spelling within the New Testament being quoted (Weymouth's Version) may differ from common usage. I noticed it too, but what should I do- correct it, or leave it as it is? I decided to leave it alone.]

40 Then will two men be in the open country: one will be taken away, and one left behind.

41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken away, and one left behind.

42 Be on the alert therefore, for you do not know the day on which your Lord is coming.

43 But of this be assured, that if the master of the house had known the hour at which the robber was coming, he would have kept awake, and not have allowed his house to be broken into.

[Keep Awake = Within Their Lifetime

If the burglar who was going to rob the house wasn't even due until centuries after both house and owner had dissolved into dust, Jesus' advice to to the home owner (i.e. his Apostles) to "keep awake" is total and complete nonsense. Therefore, Jesus must have believed his Second Coming would occur within their lifetime. ]

44 Therefore you also must be ready; for it is at a time when you do not expect Him that the Son of Man will come.

["Be Ready" = Within Their Lifetime

It has been more than 1,970 years since Jesus sounded the alarm warning his Apostles (not you) about his Second Coming. Looking back with hindsight, him getting his Apostles all worked up about this event makes no sense at all, unless he himself expected to be back within their lifetime. One does not pull a fire alarm thousands of years in advance of the fire. And for those who think Jesus was NOT specifically limiting this statement to his Apostles, then WHY does he tell THEM to be ready for the Second Coming??? IF what Jesus was referring to was NOT to take place until 50 billion trillion years later, WHY IN HELL WOULD JESUS BE TELLING THEM of the First century to "be ready"???? The ONLY way this whole chapter makes sense is Jesus expecting and predicting his Second Coming in the First Century.]

45 "Who therefore is the loyal and intelligent servant to whom his master has entrusted the control of his household to give them their rations at the appointed time?

[Within Peter's Lifetime

"Who is the loyal and intelligent servant"??? Peter, that's who, as recorded earlier in this same book of Matthew, 16:18,19 … you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church... And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. If the fulfillment of the Second Coming prophecy was not due until centuries after Peter's death, pray tell who is NOW the one the "master has entrusted the control of his household" of faith to???? Who is the one living today who's been appointed to "give them their rations at the appointed time"??? Who is NOW, Mr. & Mrs. Protestant, holding the keys??? John Piper??? ]

46 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes shall find so doing!

[Within Peter's Lifetime

Jesus, in this story, tells of a departing master (i.e. Jesus) who puts a slave (i.e. Peter) in charge of the household until his return. In the story, the master returns within (not ten thousand years AFTER) the lifetime of the slave put in charge. Jesus (as seen previously) put Peter in charge of the household of faith until Jesus should have returned. Therefore Jesus, like the master in the story, expected to be back within Peter's lifetime.

If Jesus was NOT going to have returned within Peter's lifetime, Jesus would have made arrangements for NEW "slaves" to watch over his household until if and when he DID come back. To imply otherwise is to say that Jesus was a deadbeat dad, who just walked out on his family, abandoned them, without a second thought as to their welfare or who would be taking care of them.

The fact that Christianity, after the death of the Apostles, has been torn asunder time & again over the issue of "who's in charge here?" is proof that Jesus really was a deadbeat dad who orphaned his kids. Jesus neither returned when he promised his kids he would, nor did he clearly provide someone to watch over his kids in the meantime until he did return. (As for the knee-jerk response of "That's what the Holy Spirit is for", this "Spirit" must have been asleep all this time, as it allowed thousands of Christian splinter groups to develop, all over this very issue of "who's in charge here."]

47 In solemn truth I tell you that he will give him the management of all his wealth.

48 But if the man, being a bad servant, should say in his heart, `My master is a long time in coming,'

[But It HAS Been A Long Time!!!

Jesus here condemns a "bad servant" he who says Jesus' return has been "a long time in coming". Yet to say anything else in our era, is evidence of total and complete blindness to the passage of almost 2,000 (TWO THOUSAND!!!!!) years. The simple and undeniable fact is that his return HAS been "a long time in coming" and no amount of theological B.S. by Jesus or anyone else can change that FACT into a fiction. And every century that follows, Christians have to answer anew why their Lord has been a long time in coming. How many more centuries have to go by, before Christianity will admit the obvious? What's the limit? Will Christians admit that Jesus screwed up after ten thousand years? Ten million? Ten BILLION??? How about while the sun is going super nova and the whole universe is on its last legs of dying from heat death- will Christians THEN at least admit Jesus messed up??? Probably not- Christians HATE to admit it when they're wrong.

Even a New Testament writer- disguising himself as the Apostle Peter, felt obligated to throw in his two cents on why their master seems to have orphaned them. He wrote that a short time is really a long time as long as you're not the one telling time (2nd Peter 3:8). I think he also sold used chariots on the side.

Modern Christians, via 2,000 years of disappointments, have been forced into becoming "bad servants;" for the return of Jesus has indeed been "a long time in coming". They themselves stand condemned by their own God when they point out his "delay" in returning. But it's not their fault- it's his- he never came back!!! He abandoned his kids. He walked out on them and left them orphans, and now they delude themselves into thinking daddy's really coming home after all. Umpteen years ago, their daddy walked out to the corner liquor store to buy a gallon of milk, and he never came back. Thousands of tears later these kids- now old and aged, still wait by the front door like dogs for their missing master, barking in excitement at every passing noise. ]

49 and should begin to beat his fellow servants, while he eats and drinks with drunkards;

50 the master of that servant will arrive on a day when he is not expecting him and at an hour of which he has not been informed;

51 he will treat him with the utmost severity and assign him a place among the hypocrites: there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

--------------------------------------------------

My Final Comments on Matthew 24

Some have suggested that there are two or three separate questions in verse #3 concerning future events, and therefore somehow because of this, the timing of these events may be thousands of years apart. To me, this seems like yet another attempt to "save the savior" from being the false prophet that he has been documented to be.

Regardless of how many questions may have been originally asked by the Apostles at the beginning of the 24th chapter of Matthew, the man answering the questions was very explicit in that everything in this narrative would be fulfilled within a short time span and within their lifetime, and certainly not to extend past the First Century THOUSANDS of years!!!

The following are clues that Jesus gave that indicate a short, rather than long, time span.

"Before long" the Apostles would hear of war rumors. (v. 6)

“Before long” comes from the Greek word "μελλω " which means to be on the point of doing or suffering

something, on the verge of, like a car teetering on the edge of a cliff.

" The early pains of childbirth " (v. 8)

This is another phrase that indicates there is not much time left till all these things are supposed

to take place. Pregnancy is, at most, a NINE month affair.

" Those who stand firm to the End" (v. 13)

This indicates that "The End" will be something these Apostles can reasonably hope to "stand firm to" long enough to see, i.e., within their lifetime. One can't "stand firm" to an end millions or billions of years distant, such as "stand firm until the sun goes super-nova".

" But immediately after those times of distress…" (v. 29)

This phrase certainly doesn't grant much time between the end of one event, and the start of the next.

"Then will appear the Sign of the Son of Man…" (v. 30)

This is the very next step past the "immediately" of the preceding verse. Again, no room for thousands of years of delays.

"So you also, when you see all these signs, you may be sure that He is near--at your very door.." (v. 33)

Now Jesus is telling his First Century Apostles that when they've seen all the signs described, the Second Coming will be just around the corner- "at your very door," which implies that the very next step in the sequence will bring him through the doorway. Again, another lock-in for the First Century era, and another lock-OUT of the theory that there may be millions of years involved.

"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place." (v. 34)

As if I needed any more evidence to show that this entire scenario is locked up into a First Century time frame, along comes Jesus to drive the killing nail into the theory that any other era besides the First Century could be possible. Regardless of how many questions were asked by the Apostles, "ALL these things" in regard to the questions asked are predicted to take place before that present generation of then-living First Century men died off. Again, EVERY SINGLE THING mentioned within Matthew 24- ALL these things- are predicted to be fulfilled BEFORE that current generation then living have died off.

"But if the man, being a bad servant, should say in his heart, `My master is a long time in coming,'" (v. 48)

This cinches the argument that whatever questions may have been asked regarding their future, the answers were all due within the First Century. The fulfillment of the predictions, according to Jesus, would not be "a long time in coming."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION

Jesus prophesied all of the following within the 24th chapter of Matthew

The End of the World
The Gathering Up of the Saints
Judgment Day
The Glorious "Second Coming"

Jesus specifically prophesied that all of the above events would take place before the end of the First Century, as indicated by his specifying the time limits being the lifetime of the people who heard him live back in 33 CE. These prophesied events did not take place in the time span laid down by Jesus himself. Therefore, the only logical and reasonable conclusion to be drawn is this: Regardless of anything else you may currently believe about Jesus, and regardless of how much you may currently love Jesus, nevertheless Jesus was as much a FALSE PROPHET as anybody else who makes false prophecies about the future. To conclude anything else is to be self-deceived and dishonest.

IMPLICATION

Here is what’s at stake if Jesus is indeed established as a false prophet.

“The Eternal One of Israel will not lie nor change His mind” - I Samuel 15:29

• THE TRUTH: 1/3 of Jesus' claim to being "the way, the TRUTH, and the life" turns out to be false- A person spreading falsehood can NOT be the TRUTH.
• TRINITY: The Trinity is destroyed, for how could a man who was wrong be 1/3 of the godhead?
• LOGOS: The "word that became flesh" certainly couldn't have been Jesus- for the REAL logos would never have lied.
• FAITH: Faith is destroyed, for how can one trust, have faith in, a documented liar? And with faith destroyed, thus also the foundation for Christianity.
• GOD: IF Jesus really only spoke what he was told by God, then God must have told him to make those false prophecies, and thus God himself turns out to be a liar, and if a liar, nothing he's ever said can ever be trusted again.
• INERRANCY OF SCRIPTURE: Scripture is proven to be false, for it is within the New Testament that these false prophecies are contained.

Appendix A
Fifty-Two Translations: Matthew 24:34.
(1) Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(2) This generation will not have passed before all this is accomplished.
(3) By no means may this generation be passing by until....
(4) This generation shall not pass away till all these things....
(5) Before the present generation passes away, these things will all happen.
(6) This generation will not pass away....
(7) In no wise shall this generation pass away until all these things shall happen.
(8) This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.
(9) This generation will not disappear till all this has taken place.
(10) This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things....
(11) ...this generation will not pass away....
(12) ...this generation will not pass away....
(13) ...this generation shall not pass away till....
(14) This generation may not pass away till all these things...
(15) ...this generation shall not pass away....
(16) ...this generation shall not pass away....
(17) ...this generation will not come to an end....
(18) This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.
(19) This generation will not disappear until these things happen....
(20) This generation shall not pass until....
(21) In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.
(22) This generation shall not pass....
(23) This generation shall not pass away....
(24) Before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place.
(25) This generation will not pass away....
(26) This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.
(27) The present generation will not pass away until all this takes place.
(28) These people will not pass away till all this happens.
(29) This generation will not pass away....
(30) This generation shall not pass away....
(31) This generation will not pass away before all these things have taken place.
(32) This generation will not come to an end till all these things are complete.
(33) This generation will by no means pass away before all these things take place.
(34) This generation will not pass away....
(35) Before this generation passes away, all these things will happen.
(36) This generation will not pass away....
(37) This generation will not pass away....
(38) Indeed, I can give you solemn assurance that this generation will not have passed away before all this has taken place.
(39) This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled.
(40) I tell you, even the present generation will not pass away, till all these things have taken place.
(41) The people of this day will not pass away before all these things have happened.
(42) The present generation shall not pass away till all these things happen.
(43) This present generation shall not pass away until all these things arrive.
(44) The present generation will not pass away till all this happens.
(45) I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all.
(46) I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.
(47) I assure you, all these things will take place before this present generation passes on.
(48) I swear to God, this generation certainly won't pass into oblivion before all these things take place!
(49) I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.
(50) Truly, I tell you, this generation--that is, the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period--will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
(51) I tell you the truth--all these things will happen while the people of this time are still living!
(52) Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Appendix B

Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: γενεα (genea) & Matthew 24:34.
(1) REV. CHUCK SMITH: As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years.
(2) DR. DAVID FRIEDRICH STRAUSS: ...the word genea... was put to the torture....
(3) GEORGE MURRY: If the saying relates to the parousia, it sets the end time within the bounds of the first generation church. The phrase "this generation" should cause no difficulty for interpreters... It always signifies his [Jesus'] contemporaries.
(4) DR. ALBERT SCHWEITZER: And He [Jesus] was to come, moreover, within the lifetime of the generation to which He had proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom of God.
(5) GARY DEMAR: No future generation of Jews is meant here.
(6) REV. STUART RUSSELL: Next, our Lord sums up with an affirmation calculated to remove every vestige of doubt or uncertainty, "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time so clear and express there could not be room for controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question. Ninety-nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly understand His words as meaning that the predicted catastrophe would fall within the lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would live to witness it, but that most or many would. There can be no question that this would be the interpretation which the disciples would place upon the words.... His coming... would come to pass before the existing generation had wholly passed away, and within the limits of their own lifetime.
(7) EDWARD GIBBON: [Members of the primitive church] were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds before that generation was totally extinguished which had beheld his humble condition upon the earth.
(8) REV. MILTON TERRY: The words immediately preceding them show the absurdity of applying them to another generation than that of the apostles: "When ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." The teaching of Jesus was emphatic beyond all rational question that that generation should not pass away before all those things of which they inquired should be fulfilled.
(9) DR. WILLIAM LANE CRAIG: Two generations past the time of Jesus lands you in the 2nd Century.
Thirteen Scholars: The "Race" Argument.
(1) DOUGLAS HARE: Some have argued, for example, that "this generation" refers not to Jesus' contemporaries but to the Jewish nation or to the church. The linguistic evidence in favor of such proposals is not impressive.
(2) ALAN HUGH M'NEILE: "This generation" cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.
(3) CLIFTON ALLEN: The meaning of "this generation" is much disputed. Efforts like those of Jerome, to make it mean the Jewish race, or of Origen and Chrysostom, to refer it to all Christians, are arbitrary, and are to be rejected. "This generation" refers to the contemporaries of Jesus.
(4) HEINRICH MEYER: Ver. 34. Declaration to the effect that all this is to take place before the generation then living should pass away. (It is) well-nigh absurd (the) manner in which it has been attempted to force into the word genea such meaning as: The Creation, The Human Race, The Jewish Nation, The Class of Men Consisting of My Believers, The Generation of the Elect Now in Question, The Future Generation Which is to Witness Those Events... (The Second Coming) is to occur during the lifetime of the generation then existing.
(5) R.T. FRANCE: (Genea) has been taken to mean The Jewish Race, or Unbelieving Judaism. It is unlikely that such an improbable meaning for the noun would have been suggested at all without the constraint of apologetic embarrassment...! Jesus was wrong.
(6) FLOYD FILSON: The end... will come within a generation. Attempts to translate genea as: Human Race, Jewish Race are misguided; the word refers to the generation living when Jesus spoke.
(7) P. DAVIDS, F.F. BRUCE, M. BRAUCH: This has been regarded as a hard saying.... Plainly the idea that the human race is meant cannot be entertained; every description of (the end of the world) implies that human beings will be around to witness it.... Nor is there much more to be said for the idea the Jewish race is meant; there is no hint anywhere in the New Testament that the Jewish race will cease to exist before the end of the world. In any case, what point would there be in such a vague prediction? It would be as much as to say, "At some time in the indefinite future all these things will take place." Jesus' hearers could have understood him to mean only that "all these things" would take place within their generation.... The phrase always means the generation now living.
(8) BIBLE COMMENTARY: ...seems to require us here to translate the word genea as meaning "generation," not, as it is sometimes rendered, race or people. (Generation) is the usual meaning.
(9) REV. PATRICK FAIRBAIRN: It has been maintained by some that... our Lord identified generation with the Jewish race.... But that is a very forced explanation; and not a single example can be produced of an entirely similar use of the word. Whatever difficulties may hang around the interpretation of that part of Christ's discourse, it is impossible to understand by "the generation that was not to pass away" anything but the existing race of men living at the time when the word was spoken.
(10) BRUCE CHILTON: Some have sought to get around the force of (Mt. 24:34) by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation, and see if it ever means "race" in any other context.... Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can smile at such a transparent error ....
(11) DR. ALBERT SCHWEITZER: These words (Mt. 24:34) must be strained into meaning, not that generation, but the Jewish people. Thus by exegetical art they are saved forever, for the Jewish race will never die out.
(12) REV. MILTON TERRY: The various meanings which, under the pressure of a dogmatic (crisis), have been put upon the phrase "this generation" must appear in the highest degree absurd to an unbiased critic. It has been explained (away) as meaning: The Human Race [Jerome], The Jewish Race [Dorner], The Race of Christian Believers [Chrysostom].
(13) REV. STUART RUSSELL: It has been contended by many that in (Mt 24:34) the word genea should be rendered "race" or "nation...." But we think... without any shadow of doubt that the expression "this generation" so often employed by our Lord, always refers solely and exclusively to His contemporaries, the Jewish people of His own period.
Appendix C

Five Greek Lexicons: γενεα
(1) The interval of time between father & son... from thirty to forty years those living in any one period; this present generation.
(2) A generation of mankind, a step in genealogy.
(3) A generation, an interval in time.
(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time--Mt xxiv.34... used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.
(5) The sum total of those born at the same time... all those living at the same time... contemporaries... Mt. 24:34.
 
Woody said:
Zombies Seen Walking the Streets of Jerusalem by Night
To see it on TV is one thing, to see people crawl out of a grave with mine-own-two-eyes is another.

If I saw dead people crawl out of graves myself and especially if I had known some of them – I’d first think I’m going insane and would be unhappy to say the least. But, my sanity assured (if that could happen) I’d re-evaluate my present belief that the Christian God is just a Myth like all other Gods.

But I have a question, if when trying to answers Paths post: “Dear woodman show me ONE proof that Jesus really lived” (I’d add contemporary proof) and WHEN (not if) you find it does not exist – will you then entertain the thought that the Bible is just a collection of stories composed decade and centuries after a supposed Christ lived and that maybe it’s all made up? Maybe if you had been born in India we’d be having a similar discussion about Shiva or ancient Japan about the Divine Wind?

Maybe it is all just made up huh?

I'll be waiting on the contemporary evidence thank you.
 
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