What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!

[(Q)]

i do not believe anyone could go through their lives and never break a law of state.

Note that your beliefs once again deceive you.

Did you ever read the Words of Jesus?
Because He described what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was.

Wouldn't considering your baptism as useless be exactly that kind of blasphemy?

 

[gukarma]

A sin's a sin's a sin's a sin.

There really is no difference between them. As long as you repent your fine.

Not that I am christian, but that's the vibe I get.

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

There is only one sin that never has forgiveness and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy is the act of insulting a deity. Within Christianity there is from 3 to 5 deities, father, son, holy spirit, Satan, and Mary; the latter being questionable of course. But if we just consider the first three which are considered three parts of the one god, then why would it be more serious to insult one of them more than the others? That really makes no sense.

The whole point of the savior concept is that no matter how bad you have been that if you genuinely and sincerely ask for forgiveness then it will be granted. Why then make an arbitrary exception?

Note also that an atheist can never commit blasphemy. An insult only make sense when intentionally directed at a known individual. Since an atheist doesn’t believe that God exists then blasphemy style comments can have no meaning, i.e. one cannot insult something that doesn’t exist.

 

[devils_reject]

dieu me pardonnera c'est son meter

 

[Marlin]

From the All About Mormons website:

The Unpardonable Sin

The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (Matt. 12:31-32; Jacob 7:19; Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (D&C 76:43).

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost" (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (TPJS, p. 358; cf. Heb. 10:26-29).

If people have such knowledge and willfully turn altogether away, it is a sin against light, a sin against the Holy Ghost, and figuratively "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6; D&C 76:35). Such remain as though there were no Atonement, except that they shall be resurrected from the dead (Alma 11:41).

 

[devils_reject]

To me blasphemy is claiming you are higher than love and that all love comes from you, only for you to have a place called hell at your disposal. That is what's called Holy crap! Besides if love actually came from God he wouldn't need it so badly

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

OK that was helpful. That's good - so I can blaspheme all I want including the HG since I do not know any gods.

 

[Marlin]

Marlin,

OK that was helpful. That's good - so I can blaspheme all I want including the HG since I do not know any gods.

That's like saying, "So I can hurt as many people as I want, because God will forgive me in the end." You don't sin just because there is forgiveness if you repent. Willful sin is always much harder to repent of than incidental sin.

 

[Marlin]

Being an atheist I wish to understand my religious friends even more. Half of them want to save my soul and the other half think there's no hope for a hell-bound heathen. Since The Big Guy up in Heaven sees fit to put my deeds under the microscope and pass judgement on me, I thought I would rustle up a sampling of different life accomplishments. With the help of my friends I'm hoping I'll gain a greater insight into how God makes judgements for lives lived. I'll give examples of behavior and if its possible I would like to get some sense on how God would handle it or of there are certain guaranteed punishments for certain sins. So what's worse in God's or the religion's eyes .......... Remember all these people have died

1. A non-baptized baby or a baptized baby? (Babies less than 1 year old)
2. An law abiding atheist or a church going wife beater?
3. A pedophile priest or a Satanist?
4. Incestual Sunday School teacher or gay parishioner?

Any ideas on who's going where or what's going to happen to them when they die? Can the ultimate judgement be changed if one asks for God's forgiveness?

1. Both babies are saved, as little children are "alive in Christ" and cannot sin, as they don't know good from evil and are innocent until they reach the age of accountability (about 8 years old). The Book of Mormon tells us that those who suppose that little children need baptism are in the "gall of bitterness" and need to repent.

2. If the atheist is honorable and law-abiding and is sincere in his/her unbelief, he/she will probably make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom or higher. The wife-beater needs to repent or he will suffer for his own sins. Both will eventually be forgiven if they repent and change.

3. This is a hard one. Does the pedophile practice his perversion, or does he resist the temptation? Does the Satanist practice his "religion" with murder and devil-worship? Both have great need to repent or they will suffer for their own sins until they have paid for them and are forgiven.

4. If the Sunday School teacher repents, it is likely that he will suffer greatly for his violation, especially if he had relations with a child, and eventually be forgiven. Does the gay parishioner practice homosexual acts, or does he resist the temptation? If he just has homosexual feelings but doesn't act on them, he has no need to repent, but rather just needs to stay close to God so he can better resist the temptation.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

This business of being forgiven regardless of life's misdeeds has me a bit worried. In religions of this sort it has to be open season for deviants et al. They can pursue their perversions without fear. In fact their greatest punishment would result from getting caught here on Earth, then tried and sentenced.

God permits this forgiveness at death to assuage a lifetime of sin committed towards your fellow man? I have never heard of a more uncaring act than that. I could never follow any god that puts asking for forgiveness as his #1 priority. Is God doing this for us or Him?

 

[Marlin]

The thing about the doctrine that whoever repents will be forgiven is, you have to be truly penitent to be forgiven. God has infinite mercy for everyone except the sons of perdition (who commit the unpardonable sin) and murderers (who may eventually be pardoned, but not forgiven). It's very difficult to live a lifetime of sin and then repent afterwards. To be forgiven, you have to conform to gospel laws and commandments. So someone who lived a lifetime of sin is in pretty hot water, even if only temporarily, compared with someone who kept the commandments.

Also, just because you are forgiven your sins doesn't mean you will gain the same glory or kingdom as those who kept the commandments. There are three different kingdoms in the kingdom of God, and only in the highest one (the Celestial Kingdom) can you gain "exaltation" (godhood). You may gain forgiveness of all your sins, but not necessarily attain the highest glory. This is Mormon doctrine.

 

[marv]

An atheist has no gods. Therefore, God is an atheist.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

You missed my point...the fact hat there is an 'out' for some shows a total lack of care on God's behalf with respect to those who may have suffered at the hands of the forgiven.

 

[Marlin]

You missed my point...the fact hat there is an 'out' for some shows a total lack of care on God's behalf with respect to those who may have suffered at the hands of the forgiven.

Well, yes and no. For every sin there is a penalty, and for serious sins there are serious penalties to be paid BEFORE forgiveness may be gained. Deathbed repentance is better than no repentance at all, but all sins must be paid for before forgiveness is granted. For those who repent and live the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, their sins are forgiven them and they don't have to suffer. For those who do not accept the gospel in this life or live an honorable life, they must suffer for their own sins in a state of temporary hell before Mercy is given them. And it's a long time to suffer, too, for many.

The good news is that unless you've committed an unpardonable or unforgivable sin, Christ will save you when you repent, even though forgiveness and mercy is costly and hard to gain for some people. God doesn't impose infinite punishment for finite sin.

But, the bad news is, unless you repent speedily in this life, the same spirit that possesses you at the time of death has power to possess you in eternity. So if you've lived a carnal, dishonorable life, the devil takes possession of your soul and has power over you in the next life. But if you accept Christ and follow his commandments, the devil has no power over you and you are on the strait and narrow path towards perfection and godliness.

It is greatly desirable to repent in this life. Who wants to be led around by the whims of someone who hates them (the devil)?

The truth shall make you free.

 

[Adstar]

MetaKron

Let me know if your going to inform us what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. I will come again tomorrow if God wills it.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

3. This is a hard one. Does the pedophile practice his perversion, or does he resist the temptation?

Marlin: Unfortunately Adstar couldn't manage an answer, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you.

Could you kindly show me where god says anything against having sex with children?

 

[Marlin]

Marlin: Unfortunately Adstar couldn't manage an answer, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you.

Could you kindly show me where god says anything against having sex with children?

Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has this to say about this subject:

Children

There is nothing in the scriptures, there is nothing in what we publish, there is nothing in what we believe or teach that gives license to parents or anyone else to neglect or abuse or molest our own or anyone else's children.

There is in the scriptures, there is in what we publish, there is in what we believe, there is in what we teach counsel, commandments, even warnings that we are to protect, to love, to care for, and to "teach [children] to walk in the ways of truth" (Mosiah 4:15). To betray them is utterly unthinkable.

Among the strongest warnings and the severest penalties in the revelations are those relating to little children. Jesus said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matt. 18:6).

...

Children should not be ignored or neglected. They absolutely must not be abused or molested.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

That's like saying, "So I can hurt as many people as I want, because God will forgive me in the end."

No it doesn’t. It says I can say anything I want about the HG myth because I have not met any gods yet. The issue was blasphemy of the HG being unforgivable and you have shown it is only unforgivable if one knows your god – I don’t so it doesn’t apply to me.

You don't sin just because there is forgiveness if you repent.

I can’t sin since I am an atheist. Sin means to disobey a god and I know of no gods that can be disobeyed. But I understand your point, but then I’m not expecting or looking for forgiveness from gods. But many Christians will be less careful about sinning since they think they have a Jesus safety net.

A more responsible attitude is where one takes a moral stance at all times without fear of punishment or expectation of reward. An atheist knows that if he does something wrong then he must live with the consequences. This encourages much greater care than the typical Christian. In comparison it follows that the Christian concept of forgiveness is essentially an immoral strategy since it discourages personal responsibility for immoral actions all the time there is a perception of an easy exit.

Willful sin is always much harder to repent of than incidental sin.

Sure and as I have said earlier, asking forgiveness from anyone has no meaning unless it is sincere.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

Regarding having sex with children. At the time the bible texts were written it was quite normal for girls from 11 upwards to be married and would be expected to engage in sex. And the issues of interbreeding would not have been understood either, so incest would not have been seen as a real problem.

It is doubtful that the bible authors would have seen anything wrong with having sex with children hence the reason we see nothing against it in the bible. Remember the bible has nothing to do with gods but everything to do with the customs and superstitions of the times some 2000+ years ago.

Your reference to molestation - does not appear in the bible - that's a modern value.

 

[Cris]

Marlin,

For every sin there is a penalty, and for serious sins there are serious penalties to be paid BEFORE forgiveness may be gained. Deathbed repentance is better than no repentance at all, but all sins must be paid for before forgiveness is granted. For those who repent and live the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, their sins are forgiven them and they don't have to suffer. For those who do not accept the gospel in this life or live an honorable life, they must suffer for their own sins in a state of temporary hell before Mercy is given them. And it's a long time to suffer, too, for many.

There is no support for this in the bible. This appears to be your opinion. Can you quote any supporting references?