Marlin said:
If Joseph Smith restored anything, that which has been restored would have been mentioned in earlier scriptures. He did not restore, he added and this is what Jenyar has bee trying to tell you.
What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!
- Thread starter PsychoticEpisode
- Start date
If Joseph Smith restored anything, that which has been restored would have been mentioned in earlier scriptures. He did not restore, he added and this is what Jenyar has bee trying to tell you.
Mystech said:
Did i say there was a law abiding Christian? When i talk of the law i am talking of Gods laws ok. No one succeeds in living their lives without breaking Gods Laws.
It is a common experience that when people enter prison many of them Get Religion. When ones liberty is taken away then often they will seek solace in religion. Same thing happens a lot in war. Many atheists when they experience bullets flying around their heads start to think religion that’s why they get religious during war time.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Jenyar, here is a website on the Priesthood. I don't feel like you are genuinely interested in learning about Mormonism, but only in trying to prove it wrong, so I'm not going to spend the time researching this issue. If you're truly interested, I'm sure you will find what you are looking for at this website:
Priesthood Organization
and more specifically,
The Priesthood
Priesthood Organization
and more specifically,
The Priesthood
Last edited:
"Mormonism" is not either right or wrong, since it contains much of what ordinary Christians can easily recognize as truth. Where it agrees with scripture and the gospel that has been taught since Christ, it is obviously true.
That is not the problem. The problem is the added material that has supposedly been restored but cannot be found anywhere else. Burdens that Mormons wish to place on people to convict them of more sin and disobedience than Jesus could atone for, as if that were even possible (Gal. 3). (If placing ourselves under Mormon authority isn't compulsory, it can't be called God's law, and disobeying it can't be sin; and if it is a sin, then all who belong to the Church of the Lamb have been cleansed of it by His blood, and are free and able to lead a holy life before God (2 Tim. 1:9) without the mediation of any other priest but Christ (Heb. 7:26)).
The websites you give contain information that is readily available in the Bible, although its emphasis could have been derived specifically from the dissertation James Gray published, On the Coincidence Between the Priesthoods of Jesus Christ & Melchisedec, in 1810. The only difference seems to be that the LDS church proclaims their own authority (albeit in the name of God), not the authority of God (see the last two paragraphs on Page 2).
Keep in mind that the keys were, supposedly, delivered by the apostles - not by Jesus himself. Mormons are putting their faith in the same apostles who are said to have failed Jesus with their appointments. Not to mention that these apostles could have restored any lost authority at any moment before 1820.
So my interest is in how "authority" can be said to have been lost, if none of the information pertaining to it had been lost. Because if it had to do solely with the character of people (rather than the information they carried, which we call the "gospel"), it's impossible to see why Joseph Smith et al should be thought to have had greater fortitude and resilience than the apostles chosen by Jesus himself (and the subsequent recipients of the apostles' trust). And Jesus knew when not to entrust himself to people (John 2:24).
Relevant scriptures:
That is not the problem. The problem is the added material that has supposedly been restored but cannot be found anywhere else. Burdens that Mormons wish to place on people to convict them of more sin and disobedience than Jesus could atone for, as if that were even possible (Gal. 3). (If placing ourselves under Mormon authority isn't compulsory, it can't be called God's law, and disobeying it can't be sin; and if it is a sin, then all who belong to the Church of the Lamb have been cleansed of it by His blood, and are free and able to lead a holy life before God (2 Tim. 1:9) without the mediation of any other priest but Christ (Heb. 7:26)).
The websites you give contain information that is readily available in the Bible, although its emphasis could have been derived specifically from the dissertation James Gray published, On the Coincidence Between the Priesthoods of Jesus Christ & Melchisedec, in 1810. The only difference seems to be that the LDS church proclaims their own authority (albeit in the name of God), not the authority of God (see the last two paragraphs on Page 2).
Keep in mind that the keys were, supposedly, delivered by the apostles - not by Jesus himself. Mormons are putting their faith in the same apostles who are said to have failed Jesus with their appointments. Not to mention that these apostles could have restored any lost authority at any moment before 1820.
So my interest is in how "authority" can be said to have been lost, if none of the information pertaining to it had been lost. Because if it had to do solely with the character of people (rather than the information they carried, which we call the "gospel"), it's impossible to see why Joseph Smith et al should be thought to have had greater fortitude and resilience than the apostles chosen by Jesus himself (and the subsequent recipients of the apostles' trust). And Jesus knew when not to entrust himself to people (John 2:24).
Relevant scriptures:
Acts 14:23
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Last edited:
Jenyar said:
Mormonism = Truth. Truth = Mormonism.
Um, perhaps that's why they had to be restored...
What "burdens" do Mormons want to place on others? Be more specific.
The Bible does mention sins that are beyond the pale of the Atonement, such as the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit.
Eventually, as the issues become clearer, people will have to decide whether they will accept a higher Celestial Law and get baptized, endowed and married for eternity, if they wish to be exalted and permanent members of the Church of the Firstborn. Until people fully understand all the issues, they are not condemned for being in a state of ignorance of the Celestial law.
Thanks for the interesting web site. The LDS Church most certainly does proclaim God's authority, as God is the one who restored it.
They did not "fail Jesus." The Lord simply didn't permit them to pass on their Priesthood authority to the Church, in which widespread apostasy was rampant. God took the priesthood keys away from the apostatizing Church due to unworthiness of its members.
I believe that the truth couldn't have been restored to mankind any sooner than it was. Before the Reformers, the Catholic Church exercised so much political power that it forbade any new religions to arise. Once this great land of America declared religious liberty for all, the time was ripe for the centuries of darkness to be enlightened once again. Joseph Smith was the Lord's chosen servant for this task.
The Lord is the one you must ask this question to. He took the Priesthood keys from the earth, I would assume due to wickedness, apostasy and unworthiness among all the early saints. It didn't happen all at once, but by the time the apostles were martyred, the Apostasy was well underway. God allows people to have their free agency, and they chose to reject the truth.
Why don't you just ask God to reveal to you whether the LDS Church is true or not? You seem to be saying that you agree with much Mormon doctrine; why not find out for yourself through personal revelation? The Priesthood issue seems to be a stumbling block for you, but if you ask the Lord to tell you, He will open the door and come and sup with you. He stands at the door, knocking patiently. Will you let Him in?
c20H25N3o said:
That depends on what you mean by "saved." If they accept and follow Christ, enduring in faithfulness to the end, they will be saved in one of the three kingdoms of God. Joseph Smith is not the person whom we look to for salvation, but the ordinances and commandments of the gospel he restored are necessary if you want to make it to the highest (Celestial) Kingdom of God.
Everyone is judged according to their own works.
c20H25N3o said:
Please see Doctrine & Covenants Section 76, wherein a revelation given to Joseph Smith talks about the "three degrees of glory."
Doesn't that kind of contradict Jesus though? Jesus said that if you believed in Him you would not perish. That text seems to state that only those who have rejected the Holy Spirit after receiving it will be cut off from glory. Again there is the parable about the guy who was in hell and wanted to let his brothers know that they must believe so they didnt share the same fate as he. In that parable the guy wasn't given the chance to warn his brothers because they had their entire lives to seek the truth which would have been revelaed to them if only they had sought it.
LDS scripture leaves me very very confused about the message of Jesus and therefore I naturally reject it. Am I in trouble with God for rejecting it?
thanks
c20
LDS scripture leaves me very very confused about the message of Jesus and therefore I naturally reject it. Am I in trouble with God for rejecting it?
thanks
c20
c20H25N3o said:
Yes, that's correct--his brothers will have to accept a lesser glory because they lived a lesser law while in mortality. They will have to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ to gain entrance into any of the three kingdoms, and repent of their sins as well. If not, they remain in hell.
You should be careful not to call darkness light, and light darkness. Also, don't call good evil and evil good. Rejecting the truth has grave consequences, so don't be quick to reject any doctrine until you have fully thought and prayed about it.
c20, I would recommend that you take the missionary discussions to get a good solid picture of what Mormonism is all about. They are in the phone book or you can contact them at http://www.lds.org . Or you can ask for a Free Book of Mormon with no obligation.
Marlin said:
Why did Jesus never mention this (three kingdoms) in conventional scripture? It seems like a pretty fundamental piece of knowledge to dissapear out of however many books appear in conventional scripture don't you think?
Oooh yes. You are right of course. But if the Joseph Smith stuff is hocus pocus then havn't you just called something good which is in fact deceptive? I am more inclined to believe the Joseph Smith stuff is wrong because the messages in it do not concur with the books of the bible nor Jesus' own words. I am safer with the Holy Spirit anyway. The Spirit tells me that God inspired scripture will lead me to the Son of God and that that is the most important thing that I need to be restored. The Spirit tells me not to concern myself further but rather trust as a child that everything that needed to be done has been done.
peace
c20
c20H25N3o said:
The Book of Mormon tells us that many "plain and precious things" were removed from the Bible. Yet even in the Bible we learn that there are different types of bodies in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:40-42), the glory of the sun, the moon, and the stars. (These correspond to the Celestial, the Terrestrial, and the Telestial Kingdoms).
It's not hocus pocus. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and this is verifiable through personal revelation (see Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon).
Have you ever actually read it? If not, how can you pass judgment on it?
The Spirit will tell you that the Book of Mormon is true, but this only after much study and prayer. I hope you will consider taking what we Mormons call "Moroni's Promise" (Moroni 10:4). It's very important that you do.
Marlin said:
And if I don't am I damned? Which was kind of my original question. Given that I am filled with the Spirit, I am at a loss as to what else may be important in the search for truth, given that the truth resides in me.
peace
c20