What will we replace religion with?

[Balerion]

http://www.livescience.com/18117-rel...countries.html

From above link:

According to the new study of almost 200,000 people in 11 European countries, people who are religious have higher self-esteem and better psychological adjustment than the non-religious only in countries where belief in religion is common. In more secular societies, the religious and the non-religious are equally well-off.

"The results suggest that religiosity, albeit a potent force, confers benefits by riding on cultural values," study researcher Jochen Gebauer of Humboldt University in Berlin and colleagues wrote online Jan. 5 in the journal Psychological Science.

The link doesn't work for me, but very nice find, quinnsong. I wonder what Syne has to say about that.

 

[Syne]

Chess club, Glee club, Music and Drama clubs, Computer Clubs, et al... pretty much ANYTHING that gets kids out and about into social interaction... the benefits of this SHOULD be self evident...



One could argue the point that, since there is no concrete evidence to support the claims made within, that Religion IS a delusion... and I'm someone who BELIEVES in Religion... for Christs sake Syne, stop intentionally being obtuse!

We are talking about adults and scientific studies.


There you have it folks, Kittamaru admits to being delusional.

 

[Syne]

IMO conformity and integration into something(anything) bigger than oneself is the key. To your point about the religious community having no immediate secular rival, you would be right, they have had a huge head start in America. Did you note that in more secular societies, the religious and non religious were equally well off.

Putting aside for the moment the fact that people are known to exaggerate desirable qualities such as happiness on dating sites... Yes, but there does not seem to be any comparison of happiness between those in religious and non-religious societies. It is not too surprising that everyone in more secular societies, where there is significantly less opportunity to participate in religious community, are equally well off.

The problem is that even long-standing secular societies do not seem to offer an alternative benefit. From the dating website's "eDarling research blog":

Implication:
Overall, religious individuals are psychologically healthier than non-believers. However, this overall relation occurs only because religious believers are particularly psychologically healthy in religiosity-applauding countries. Given that religiosity continuously declines in most European countries, it seems likely that the psychological health benefits of religiosity will not be evident in the future any more. - http://www.science-of-love.org/edar...sychological-health-cross-cultural-comparison (emphasis mine)​

If the bolded statement is true, then we can expect for secular societies to be less psychologically healthy than religious ones. Let us compare the same countries they did (most and least religious).

Turkey
The suicide rate is 4.0 per 100,000 population (TurkStat, suicide statistics, 2010).
In Turkey, neuropsychiatric disorders are estimated to contribute to 17.0% of the global burden of disease (WHO, 2008).

Sweden
The suicide rate for males is 18.1 per 100,000 population and for females is 8.3 per 100,000 population.
In Sweden, neuropsychiatric disorders are estimated to contribute to 35.6% of the global burden of disease (WHO, 2008).

- http://www.who.int/mental_health/evidence/atlas/profiles/en/​

Sweden is clearly less mentally healthy than Turkey. So while the benefit of religion may be bolstered by social approval, its benefit is absent in the absence of a prominent religion. IOW, secular society has no substitute that bestows such benefits.

 

[quinnsong]

Well if you want to cherrypick:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113253/increase-suicide-us-not-due-marriage-or-religion-decline

If not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate


BTW I am not likely to believe stats regarding suicides coming out of the Middle East.

Do take note that Sweden's suicide rate is lower than ours. "Merica

 

[Jan Ardena]

Erm, this is preaching or proselytising, isn't it?

Nope.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Can you explain where the slip is?

You speak for all atheists when you say ''Atheists don't want......''.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Right... again, sounds like trying to have both sides of the same coin come up at once.

The way I look at it, the New Testament overrides the Old BECAUSE of Christ... no, simply believing in Christ's story isn't enough to warrant salvation in my opinion (you still have to at least TRY to be a decent human being) but it is that faith that enables you to be saved.

The problem I have is people that take the Bible for rote and attempt to use it verbatim when, an only when, it suits them... such as this asshole in New York City James David Manning who advocates stoning homosexuals and other such things on the basis of biblical texts, yet conveniently forget the ideas of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"... it's always fun when you can cherrypick WHICH rules from the whole rulebook you want to follow!

I think you're missing what the point of ''religion'' and ''scriptures'' are.

jan.

 

[Kittamaru]

We are talking about adults and scientific studies.


There you have it folks, Kittamaru admits to being delusional.

Oh, so adults cannot partake in music and drama clubs, barbershop choirs, chess clubs, or the like? No wonder you are such an angry, vindictive person ...

As to scientific studies, ill post some in due time (lil hard to do from my phone, and truly you arent even close to worth the effort)

 

[quinnsong]

The link doesn't work for me, but very nice find, quinnsong. I wonder what Syne has to say about that.

Syne's position that ultimately belief in a god is what makes people happier and more well adjusted fails. The back door that he is using does not support his argument. If he were to say that a sense of community, conformity to the whole, goal orientation and friendship in a group setting, all those things that churches provide then I would have no problem with his position. Religion or a god per say is not the reason these people or happier but the methodology that churches and other organizations (secular) use to strengthen our connection to one another. Loners and lonely people who have little or no moral support from friends or family ( which churches do provide) are more likely to be depressed (duh) and it seems the less densely populated regions of this country have higher suicide rates. Most humans need the support of their fellow humans is what I get from Syne's position, nothing more.

 

[Kittamaru]

Here you go Syne:

Book Club good for seniors mental health and acuity.

Stay socially connected. The support we receive from our friends, family, and colleagues helps maintain our mental health. Studies have shown that those who are engaged with family and community groups take longer to show the symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease than those who are socially isolated. So stay or become connected. Join a book club or a volunteer group and interact with the world around you.

Team sports boost mental health

Social activies good for emotional health

Improve mental and emotional health by taking care of yourself
In order to maintain and strengthen your mental and emotional health, it’s important to pay attention to your own needs and feelings. Don’t let stress and negative emotions build up. Try to maintain a balance between your daily responsibilities and the things you enjoy. If you take care of yourself, you’ll be better prepared to deal with challenges if and when they arise.

Taking care of yourself includes pursuing activities that naturally release endorphins and contribute to feeling good. In addition to physical exercise, endorphins are also naturally released when we:

Do things that positively impact others. Being useful to others and being valued for what you do can help build self-esteem.
Practice self-discipline. Self-control naturally leads to a sense of hopefulness and can help you overcome despair, helplessness, and other negative thoughts.
Learn or discover new things. Think of it as “intellectual candy.” Try taking an adult education class, join a book club, visit a museum, learn a new language, or simply travel somewhere new.
Enjoy the beauty of nature or art. Studies show that simply walking through a garden can lower blood pressure and reduce stress. The same goes for strolling through a park or an art gallery, hiking, admiring architecture, or sitting on a beach.
Manage your stress levels. Stress takes a heavy toll on mental and emotional health, so it’s important to keep it under control. While not all stressors can be avoided, stress management strategies can help you bring things back into balance.
Limit unhealthy mental habits like worrying. Try to avoid becoming absorbed by repetitive mental habits—negative thoughts about yourself and the world that suck up time, drain your energy, and trigger feelings of anxiety, fear, and depression.

So... yeah, there you go. Those three took me about five minutes to find.

 

[(Q)]

That's not what I think at all (grin!).

jan.

Yes, it is, because there is nothing else God could have created the universe from, it had to be nothing.

 

[(Q)]

So because we know somethings are direct products of natural causes, we should just accept everything (including everything we don't know) as direct product of natural causes?

Obviously, especially considering there is nothing else to provide such things.

Who invoked ''gods''?

You do, obviously.

Even if that was the case, how is it that you consider - ''the universe not only popped into existence out of no space, time, or, energy, but was it's own cause'', a better alternative?

jan.

There is no better alternative.

 

[Syne]

Well if you want to cherrypick:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113253/increase-suicide-us-not-due-marriage-or-religion-decline

If not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate


BTW I am not likely to believe stats regarding suicides coming out of the Middle East.

Do take note that Sweden's suicide rate is lower than ours. "Merica

Yeah, because the US is the pinnacle of religious approval, huh? You should notice that our popular culture/media is almost exclusively secular.

Syne's position that ultimately belief in a god is what makes people happier and more well adjusted fails. The back door that he is using does not support his argument. If he were to say that a sense of community, conformity to the whole, goal orientation and friendship in a group setting, all those things that churches provide then I would have no problem with his position. Religion or a god per say is not the reason these people or happier but the methodology that churches and other organizations (secular) use to strengthen our connection to one another. Loners and lonely people who have little or no moral support from friends or family ( which churches do provide) are more likely to be depressed (duh) and it seems the less densely populated regions of this country have higher suicide rates. Most humans need the support of their fellow humans is what I get from Syne's position, nothing more.

Again, you fail to address the benefits solely from religious belief. If religious attendance were the whole story, I would tend to agree with you.

Here you go Syne:

Book Club good for seniors mental health and acuity.



Team sports boost mental health

Social activies good for emotional health



So... yeah, there you go. Those three took me about five minutes to find.

Then you should really tell all these secular countries, because from the statistics and studies it does not appear that they have figured it out.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Yes, it is, because there is nothing else God could have created the universe from, it had to be nothing.

Then it's what YOU think, not me.

jan.

 

[quinnsong]

Syne;3176762

Again, you fail to address the benefits solely from religious belief. If religious attendance were the whole story, I would tend to agree with you.



Then you should really tell all these secular countries, because from the statistics and studies it does not appear that they have figured it out.




Denmark is a pretty agnostic and secular country, so maybe you can explain this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html

 

[Syne]

Syne;3176762

Again, you fail to address the benefits solely from religious belief. If religious attendance were the whole story, I would tend to agree with you.



Then you should really tell all these secular countries, because from the statistics and studies it does not appear that they have figured it out.




Denmark is a pretty agnostic and secular country, so maybe you can explain this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html

Denmark is pretty even with the US in terms of mental illness. http://www.who.int/mental_health/evidence/atlas/profiles/en/
And half of commuting being done by bike would increase the general sense of well-being for any country.

Therefore it came as little surprise to us discovering that the world’s happiest countries rank at the very first places also in the ECF Cycling Barometer. In other words: the more a country rides, the happier it is. - http://www.ecf.com/news/a-bike-trip-towards-happiness/​

Why cycling can make you a happier person


Still does not address the benefits of religious belief itself.

Belief in God or a higher power might not be on the list of prescribed treatments for depression or anxiety but a recent study concludes it can improve outcomes for psychiatric patients. - http://www.nepsy.com/articles/leading-stories/study-belief-in-god-aids-treatment/​

 

[quinnsong]

Denmark is pretty even with the US in terms of mental illness. http://www.who.int/mental_health/evidence/atlas/profiles/en/
And half of commuting being done by bike would increase the general sense of well-being for any country.

Therefore it came as little surprise to us discovering that the world’s happiest countries rank at the very first places also in the ECF Cycling Barometer. In other words: the more a country rides, the happier it is. - http://www.ecf.com/news/a-bike-trip-towards-happiness/​

Why cycling can make you a happier person


Still does not address the benefits of religious belief itself.

Belief in God or a higher power might not be on the list of prescribed treatments for depression or anxiety but a recent study concludes it can improve outcomes for psychiatric patients. - http://www.nepsy.com/articles/leading-stories/study-belief-in-god-aids-treatment/​

Consider it addressed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/religion-depression_b_3928675.html

 

[(Q)]

Still does not address the benefits of religious belief itself.

Belief in God or a higher power might not be on the list of prescribed treatments for depression or anxiety but a recent study concludes it can improve outcomes for psychiatric patients. - http://www.nepsy.com/articles/leading-stories/study-belief-in-god-aids-treatment/​

So, we should accept Jesus as our savior because it improves outcomes for psychiatric patients? The depths believers will stoop.

 

[(Q)]

Then it's what YOU think, not me.

jan.

Then, where do you think God acquired the raw materials to create the universe?

 

[Kittamaru]

Then, where do you think God acquired the raw materials to create the universe?

Isn't it obvious, Q? Just like the omnipotent being of your namesake, he simply snapped his fingers and the Universe flared into existence, straight from the mind of the Great Bird of the Galaxy (Bless his soul, may he rest in peace)

I mean, really... if a fictional TV character can do it, then surely... well... wait, I guess that argument kind of falls flat, huh.