itopal said:
Oh, you aren’t hmmm? That’s funny because next you define irrational aspects (details) to the IF (God)?
Aspects (details) of your imaginary (ontological) god.
(a) It wants to be hidden.
(b) It “IS.” You seem to think, if you imagine an aspect - therefore it is real.
(c) Absolute. This is a self-negating philosophical (logical) inevitability.
(d) It has an ability (a “grasp”) - that it does not use - LOL.
(e) It is invisible - and undetectable - LOL.
What does this mean? I said that IF God exists, there is no way of proving he exists unless he wants you to. This is implied in the definition of what it means to be a god.
As far as Roman ideology (Society) being gone; no - it is still here today;
Indeed there are interesting aspects that have survived because the romans were very good at some thing and people have copied from them. However, their empire fell. It fell because its reason for being... it's culture... collapsed. It lost it's morality (yes, rome was once moral) then slowly degenerated into decadence. Christianity didn't help because the ruling class merely used it instead of being subject to it.
The Empire of Alexander the Great; died upon his death-bead; atheism had nothing to with it;
Nor was his empire a culture. He borrowed from things and maintained his empire with nothing more then his army and fear of his return. When he died, the army and that fear died.
His empire was sustained by Faith in Alexander... when he died, the empire died.
nor the end of the Sumerian; the Egyptian; the Persian Empire; nor the Caliphate; etc.
Each of those went through a period of degeneration as a disconnect developed between culture of each society and the culture of power.
Egypt kept its faith for a very very long time. This is in part why it remains the single longest lived empire in known human history. I believe they can claim 4000 years of empire... not bad.
Muslims were Muslims within the Caliphate and are still Muslims today - yet the Empire is Gone.
The Muslims were actually defeated by the Mongols who then crowned themselves kings in the muslim world. They converted to islam apparently, but the conversion wasn't particularly deep and the cultural differences were profound. It was at that point that the muslim world began to decay. That was basically the peak of their civilization.
Most empires reach beyond their historical borders - they deserve to shrink (back); but they do not die. Nations continue.
Deserve? That sounds like a moral judgment... explain the basis of this morality.
Civilian cities in Japan were fire-bombed by the (US) during WW II - and after we pummeled them into submission; we A-bombed them twice. This would have amounted to war crimes had the US not been the clear and would-be victor. But Japan remains; transformed; it is not dead either. The Nation continues.
This demonstrates such a low understanding of that war, that I don't know what to say...
Without the A bomb, Japan would have been invaded... far far more would have died.
We were even in talks with Stalin to provide some of the troops. We estimated that a million of our people would die in that invasion... considering htat we woudl have air superiority, how many japanese do you think would die? Upwards of 5 million at least. How many did the A bomb kill? The A bomb was the best thing that could have happened. It got them to stop fighting before the invasion.
Religion AND "politic" are both examples of ideology. Ideology transforms and evolves or it dies; but society and people continue. This return to the religion; the myths of old idea; has no basis in reality; you merely rant; from your own imagination.
Actually, I'm expressing the opinion of the dominant political and ideological power in the US at this moment.
The revitalization of religion in the US is calculated. We're doing it on purpose.
Wiser men then you or I have set upon this course so you shouldn't be so easy in dismissing something you likely don't understand.
Atheism, Agnostics, Zealots, Theist, Fundamentalists, Traditionalists, Reasonable Religionists, etc, and mixes thereof have always existed together within society.
sure... some people always prefer having sex with sheep to their appropriate species and sex... but its not a problem unless it becomes wide spread.
Statistics.
The struggle for power; needs an ideology; the claim to finite resources; requires a righteous stand. This is an example of the negative - and hardly a reason to have “faith” in the old myths.
A people need an identity. It is that simple. If people don't have that, then everyone goes in their own direction and the system falls apart.
Cultural diffusion has happened for thousands of years? So - so what.
Of times cultural diffusion is healthy - it merely takes time; unless you lend an ear to the fear-mongers.
If you can't see the difference, then I can't help you. Regardless, the statistics show that you'll see what I'm talking about in the next 30 years. So buckle up and enjoy the ride.
You sound like a Catholic - here. LOL
There was nothing remotely Catholic or even religious about that statement. It was an expression of sociological theory that I think is valid.
If anything Europe - is not a vacuum; some of the best minds live there; they have some of the best universities in the world.
You didn't understand what I meant by vacuum. I'm not saying you're stupid or without talent. Rome didn't fall for lack of ability. It fell for lack of will and unifying identity. No one felt close to the empire. No one loved it. Very few labored to protect and sustain it. Even the ruling class of Rome cared very little for the empire so long as it kept them in wealth.
This killed the empire.
Your “faith” vacuum is non-existent; pure imagination. Doomsayers and presumptive-minds like you exist in Society always. You make claims to know; yet all you really do is make false claims.
It’s funny you should mention an increase in religionists in the US;
while there is a decline in US education standards simultaneously.
Your grasp of those statistics is very shallow. The falling in US test scores is primarily in language. That is to say, it seems that Americans over all don't speak the english language as well as they used to. Furthermore, the primary areas where this statistic is falling is in major cities and mostly around the boarder with Mexico.
What does this tell you? Language ability is falling in major cities and around the Mexican board... think.
Areas that are either rural or far north have not had falling statistics. They're either the same or have been rising.
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spidergoat said:
Karmashock,
Rome turned Christian before it fell, but that still doesn't mean that's why it fell.
Actually, that is precisely why it fell. Ask around. The most distinguished book about the fall of Rome is called "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon. In that book he makes roughly the same argument. Rome lost faith in itself and went into decay.
Also, atheist is not nihilism, Buddhists, for instance, are atheists.
You wouldn't refer to them as such and Buddhists wouldn't associate themselves with atheists. Atheism is not a belief system. It is an anti belief system. It believes there is no god but it doesn't profess any other belief.
Therefore its follows tend to believe in nothing, ergo nihilists. Can you be an atheist without being a nihilist? Sure… but typically that isn’t the case. Most beliefs are just derivative of living in what remains primarily a Christian society. If that support goes away, then there is no guarantee that they’ll believe in anything.
And I do not believe for one second that the 'cons and the religious wrong share little in common, they are the same people. Morality is often ambiguous, since no set of rules could account for every situation, and reality is a continuum, not broken up into fixed segments that act in predictable ways. I'm all for people being interested in religion, but it is not a panacea. You seem to describe a spiritual darwinism with the most aggressive culture winning. And the most aggressive cultures today are fundamentalist.
If you can't distinguish the Neo-Conservatives from the Religious Right, then you're blind. They’re very very different groups that have allied with each other because they have similar goals.
The Neocons think America must be a nation with a strong belief system. It must have strong cultural values and a strong cultural identity. What that identity is or culture is doesn’t matter as much. It simply must have one.
The Religious right thinks America must become a more Christian nation, with more strongly professed moral beliefs.
The religious right gives the Neocons some of what they want in the US. The rest the neocons have to make for themselves. Look to what we're doing in Iraq if you want to see some of that.
The Neocons give the religious right legitimacy and access that they otherwise would not have had. Without Neocon backup, the religious right would have been either ignored or swated. The Neocons deliberately stirred and drove the religious right. They were always there, but the neocons brought them up.
The politics of this country are far more complex then you likely realize. That doesn't make any of these groups bad people either. The Neocons want to spread freedom and democracy around the world... while making the US a more moral nation. These goals are pursued because they believe it is the only way to save America from internal decay and decadence. This is what drives them.
Anyway, please don't respond with snarky and childish comments. This could be a good discussion.
Love and Peace, Karmashock.
