What will Christians do when their religion dies?

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity. It makes me wonder, what will Christians do when their faith has been proven to be false? My guess is that, of course, they will be in denial as some already are. How will they cope with their loss of faith? I know how this loss feels. I've experienced it. Will they turn to those of us who have grieved through the loss? I believe the truth is being told, but they haven't accepted it. What will Roman Catholics do? It will be their faith that crumbles first. Will there be another 'reformation' to explain the coming fall of Christianity? Or will the truth about Christianity result in the Jim Jones Worship Kool-Aid Feast?

Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.

 

[Aborted_Fetus]

:: Cue Leo Volont on how you are wrong (although citing no sources) and that God's power will prevail because that is his plan. ::

hehe

Christians have never been one's to accept the facts. Facts and logic are things the Christian church has never been comfortable with. Whenever faced with a situation that they know does not make sense and they are proven wrong, you usually get the same bullshit response on how it is God's plan, or the mystery of God sometimes eludes us, or something stupid like that.

The basic fact is, religion needs blind faith to survive. Once someone is willing to accept that it may not be true and they start objectively looking at the facts, that person rarely stays religious. But I do believe that there are too many ignorant stubborn people in the world that will never give up their faith, no matter how many facts you throw in their face.


"Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains."

 

[Karmashock]

Religion is not about facts, it is about philosophy and belief. The very nature of this belief makes it impossible to disprove or prove. What is important is that you believe or don't believe.

Christianity isn't particularly violent or unreasonable. Furthermore, there are many different groups. The three major groups are the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, and the slew of Protestant sects (divided primarily into radical and moderate sects). When you talk about Christianity, you must specifically attribute the information to one of these general groups. With the Protestants it might be further fair to single out specific sects.

The US is not and has never been a Catholic nation, peopled by Catholics. Even with the massive influx of Irish Catholics in the 1890s and current influx of over one million mostly catholic Mexicans a year there have always been more Protestants.

What, if any, are your specific problems with Christianity?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Karmashock: Religion is not about facts, it is about philosophy and belief. The very nature of this belief makes it impossible to disprove or prove. What is important is that you believe or don't believe.
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M*W: Welcome, Karmashock. I believe you have said it all, "Religion is not about facts."
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Karmashock: Christianity isn't particularly violent or unreasonable.
*************
M*W: Christianity is the bloodiest religion that ever set foot on this planet.
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Karmashock: Furthermore, there are many different groups. The three major groups are the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, and the slew of Protestant sects (divided primarily into radical and moderate sects).
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M*W: That in itself shows that the religion of Christianity is a confusing theory at best.
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Karmashock: When you talk about Christianity, you must specifically attribute the information to one of these general groups. With the Protestants it might be further fair to single out specific sects.
*************
M*W: The very foundation of Christianity is based on lies and fairy tales.
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Karmashock: The US is not and has never been a Catholic nation, peopled by Catholics. Even with the massive influx of Irish Catholics in the 1890s and current influx of over one million mostly catholic Mexicans a year there have always been more Protestants.
*************
M*W: Get your facts straight. The "massive influx of Irish Catholics" occurred in the 1850s during the potato famine. The Italians and Slavs came during the 1890s.
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Karmashock: What, if any, are your specific problems with Christianity?
*************
M*W: For starters, Paul, the most prolific liar on Planet Earth.
Then, the "virgin" birth. The "star" of David. (Did you know that David was also a fictional character?). The "missing" years of Jesus. How could a prophet at Jesus's level have "missing" years? Oh, and if Jesus was a real human being, he was married to Mary Magdalen. Jesus, himself, was probably just a simple Rabbi, but MM was the enlightened one who taught Jesus. The crucifixion never happened, and neither did the "resurrection." It makes for an interesting sci-fi read, but there were some 25 dying demigod saviors who came along before Jesus. Surely, you don't believe in this crap?

 

[duendy]

When they had a poll herer a while back skin what people believed in, the largest line was athiests, by far

s your quesy about where do Christians 'go'..i feel is fairly obvious...they throw out all the christian faith in superstition and embrace science and facts. over and over again i get this vibe from athiests. not just at this forum, but even forums where the people there are very familiar with hallucinogens, and even one's whove taken them and have left their faith embrace physicalist theories ala science

As i kep exploring about.....what i am interested about is this giving up of supersitious beliefs in sky daddies, and devils, and the goats and the sheep, repsectively the damned and the saved, and ressurection from the grave etcetera. yet then many cling to science as THE truth. it is this that disturbs me. cause it is the classic throwing the baby out with the bathwater. the athiests i am used to dealing with will have nutin to do with spiritual-talk. for now all that is 'merely chemicals'

 

[Karmashock]

M*W: Welcome, Karmashock. I believe you have said it all, "Religion is not about facts."

It doesn't pretend to be. Is freedom a fact? Is love a fact?

A belief system doesn't have to have any facts for it to work or be good.

M*W: Christianity is the bloodiest religion that ever set foot on this planet.

The only religious wars you can attach to it are the crusades... and those would have likely happened anyway. Europe had a huge population boom. Any warlord would use that to get wealth and solve population crowding.
Why do you think it is a violent religion?

M*W: That in itself shows that the religion of Christianity is a confusing theory at best.

Why is confusing bad? Furthermore, you can only belong to one group. So it isn't confusing for the people that practice it. It's only hard for someone else to understand them all.

Why is it their responsibility to simplify themselves for others to understand?

M*W: The very foundation of Christianity is based on lies and fairy tales.

What does this have to do with the varying groups? Are not all religions based on 'lies' according to you? Why single out Christians?

Further, if you're to make war on all faith, then what will you put in its place? Societies need faith to sustain cultural cohesion. It doesn't have to be religious faith... but faith in something.

Faith is always an improvable assumption.

M*W: Get your facts straight. The "massive influx of Irish Catholics" occurred in the 1850s during the potato famine. The Italians and Slavs came during the 1890s.

First, I know my history... I cite 1890 because it was the end of that major influx... it's also when some of my Irish family came to the US.

I don't see your point anyway. The US is not a catholic nation and yet you keep bringing up the Vatican like that means something to protestants. It does not.

M*W: For starters, Paul, the most prolific liar on Planet Earth.
Then, the "virgin" birth. The "star" of David. (Did you know that David was also a fictional character?). The "missing" years of Jesus. How could a prophet at Jesus's level have "missing" years? Oh, and if Jesus was a real human being, he was married to Mary Magdalen. Jesus, himself, was probably just a simple Rabbi, but MM was the enlightened one who taught Jesus. The crucifixion never happened, and neither did the "resurrection." It makes for an interesting sci-fi read, but there were some 25 dying demigod saviors who came along before Jesus. Surely, you don't believe in this crap?

All religions have such stories... I don't get the specific issue with Christianity?

The Native Americans had many such faith systems that talked of spirits and such... were these evil belief systems?

I don't understand what seems like blind hatred to me... you seem very upset... and specifically upset with Christianity. It seems illogical.

The only explanation is if you believed in a faith system that said that Christianity was evil. There are only two that I know of like that... radical atheism and radial Islam.

Do you belong to either of those very general groups?

 

[duendy]

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a christian

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war of such hideous ferocity, and skin melting bloodshed the world has ever 'seen'...'seen' in comma cause we aren't ALLOWEd to see the true horror. reasons being they want to use propaganda t make people vote him in which the fools did (though ther's really no choice you know)....he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does? have you researched about it? i have. it explodes and when it des, not only does it evaporate skin, it also sreads serious forms of cancers, and new hybrids of cancers, and causes genetic deformities in babies, and poisons the water, soil...everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?

 

[Brutus1964]

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a christian

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war of such hideous ferocity, and skin melting bloodshed the world has ever 'seen'...'seen' in comma cause we aren't ALLOWEd to see the true horror. reasons being they want to use propaganda t make people vote him in which the fools did (though ther's really no choice you know)....he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does? have you researched about it? i have. it explodes and when it des, not only does it evaporate skin, it also sreads serious forms of cancers, and new hybrids of cancers, and causes genetic deformities in babies, and poisons the water, soil...everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?

Duendy

It is George the Liberator who has freed millions of Afghanis and now Iraqis. The Iraqis are grateful for their opportunity to choose their own destiny. It is their God given right that has been trampled on by despots for so many years. Freedom is worth fighting and dying for. Our forbearers fought and died for us so we could be free, now it is our turn to repay the debt and help others to achieve our same blessings.

 

[Silas]

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M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity.

Every time I go to amazon.com I find evermore referenced materials on the existence of UFOs and the healing benefits of crystals. The fact that there are always people who want to tear down shibboleths, be it the scientific disbelief in UFOs or the Christian church, and write reams of popular books about it, does not mean there is particular merit to any one of those books. There has been plenty of material available to discredit the Bible for over 200 years, if you go back to Thomas Paine. And yet here we are, living in the middle of a religious schism which is guaranteed only to increase Christianity's number of adherents.

Dan Brown et al get a large amount of money for writing thrillers in which the Church is willing to kill people rather than have "the truth" be known. The fact is, there is no realistic prospect of any proof sufficiently compelling to destroy the faith of such a large proportion of the world's population ever coming to light - as I would have thought a cursory browse through the Religion forum here would have made self-evident.

 

[Huwy]

"The only religious wars you can attach to it are the crusades... and those would have likely happened anyway."

Uhh how about the war on terror??


"Further, if you're to make war on all faith, then what will you put in its place? Societies need faith to sustain cultural cohesion. It doesn't have to be religious faith... but faith in something."

The answer to religion (and inevitable atheism) is Humanism. Simple yet beautiful. Wonderful but factual.
Instead of people being moral because god tells them, they be moral because they believe it is the right thing to do.

Who says Medicine Woman has to be from a radical group? Maybe she's just passionate about the truth?

Or maybe she is radical, like that guy Nostradamus, who said the earth was a sphere!!! And that it rotated around the sun!!! Shame on him! (sarc)

Hmm maybe she's like I am and is still upset at the threats of incarceration the christians made to Nostradamus, and how they forced him to take back what he knew was right.
The christians will never forgive the jews for crucifying jesus, they will never forgive the muslims for 9-11.
The jews will never forgive the nazis, or the palestinians.
The muslims will never forgive the christians for war or the jews for palestine.

and I will never forgive the christians for Nostradamus, or hoarding all that gold and priceless shit in the vatican for themselves, when it could be used to help the needy/starving/war-torn.
All they do is release two doves, and they can't even get them both out the window. Hope the kids didn't get spanked / molested as punishment.

Nor will I forgive judaism for circumcision, or their racist beliefs.
Nor will I forgive islam for female genital mutilation and the headscarf (berkah).

Its about time someone fought for the human race instead of the magic man in the sky.

 

[Karmashock]

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a Christian

I don’t know specifically what you’re talking about? Why is that Christianity’s fault? What we’re doing is not a Christian action. It is the will of the neocons. The Neocons are not a particularly religious bunch… though they think religion is good.

How much do you honestly know about American politics? I wouldn’t presume to understand British politics unless I studied them… and I have not.

Have you studied American politics… or just taken in what the local media says?

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war

Actually, that has yet to be established. The international courts, or at least so they call themselves, have yet to charge the US or UK for any wrong doings.

Innocent until proven guilty.

You want to go against US and UK legal teams? Because I’m fairly certain they could humiliate anyone that tried it.

he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does?

Yep, superior armament against tanks. It’s good because it goes through old soviet armor like a white-hot knife through butter.

The guy in the tank is going to die regardless… does it really matter that his corpse might be slightly radioactive? Cus that’s the only difference.

everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?

It wasn’t used in quantities large enough to damage Iraq’s ecosystem. Furthermore, it’s only mildly radioactive.



If it makes you happy we’re going to stop using lead for our bullets in the next ten to twenty years… we’ll be going on to some ceramic plastic type that doesn’t poison the land like lead does. We’re also going to start using biodegradable explosives… Most explosives have heavy metal compounds that damage the environment… so we’re going to transition to types that biodegrade… at least the residue will… I don’t know if the explosive will prior to detonation.

We’re also transitioning more to robotic warfare… so the loss of life should be lower on both sides. Fewer US soldiers and pilots will die… and because the robot is expendable it can get close enough to the target to only kill the enemy… and leave the innocents untouched.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

 

[Silas]

Brutus, do the ends justify the means? The whole war of Iraq was justified on the basis of Saddam's fellowtravelling with Al Q'aeida. Saddam hated Al Q'aeida and one of the few good things you could say about Saddam's Iraq was that it was strictly secular. The Iraqis now have a democracy, of sorts. But the division along party lines is religious, and the only direction that such a political system can go is towards Muslim Orthodoxy, which will mean continuing conflict and hatred, first against the Jews in Israel and then against the Great Christian Crusade.

There will be more hatred, more bloodshed, and the great Liberal tolerant society I grew up in will be swept away. After 50+ years of peace, we now live, as the Chinese would say, "in interesting times".

 

[duendy]

"humanism"? th "human race" ?

what about all the OTHEr species--of which thousands have gone extinct since humanism kicked off

no, what we need is a REfresher in the more-than-ness of NATURE. of realizing we cannot go on lordin it over Nature as though we were the IT-species! THAt has to be THe central insight to where science must explore at

actually some science is. it is the mechansitic mainstream variety that is seriously and very DAMAGINGLY holding things back

nad as for humans. theres too fkin many of us anyway.gobblin away at the resources of this 'small' Earth like some kind of weird two legged locusts

 

[Karmashock]

Uhh how about the war on terror??

Aside from the Islamic radicals, it is not a religious war.

The answer to religion (and inevitable atheism) is Humanism. Simple yet beautiful. Wonderful but factual.
Instead of people being moral because god tells them, they be moral because they believe it is the right thing to do.

Humanism typically boils down to emotionalism, which isn’t a moral system so much as giving into primal instincts. It is animal philosophy.

If you like it, then good luck to you. But I don’t think a successful modern society can be based upon it.

Who says Medicine Woman has to be from a radical group? Maybe she's just passionate about the truth?

She seems extremely passionate about something… such passions if unchecked lead to fanaticism. She seemed like a fanatic to me… though I don’t know enough about her belief system to have an informed opinion. I just sensed a lot of hate.

Or maybe she is radical, like that guy Nostradamus, who said the earth was a sphere!!! And that it rotated around the sun!!! Shame on him! (sarc)

That’s not a very good example. After all… Nostradamus was a nut… I’m sorry if you love the guy… but he is regarded today as a nut… as are the people that study his quatrains. But hey… They have FAITH that he could foresee the future. That God gave him divine sight… and I certainly don’t know that that isn’t true. I just think they’re a little obsessed and desperate… but if they have fun with it, it’s a good hobby a the very least.

Hmm maybe she's like I am and is still upset at the threats of incarceration the christians made to Nostradamus, and how they forced him to take back what he knew was right.

Again, you’re talking about the Vatican, which only represents about 1/3 of all Christendom. Orthodox Christians and “Protest”ants can’t be smeared with that.

The christians will never forgive the jews for crucifying jesus, they will never forgive the muslims for 9-11.

Neither of those statements is true. I don’t know what else to say about that… it’s just wrong.

The jews will never forgive the nazis, or the palestinians.

The Jews shouldn’t be expected to forgive the Nazis, I certainly never will.
The palistinians have been offered peace many times… they are only now moving towards something that might be peace.
Israel’s actions are as much caused by the Palestinian’s actions as the Palestinians actions are caused by Israel.

The muslims will never forgive the christians for war or the jews for palestine.

The Muslims and the Vatican have both wronged each other. I don’t feel that either owes the other an unconditional apology. Though the Pope did apologize for the Crusades. I don’t think the Muslim priests have apologized for the invasion of Europe.

and I will never forgive the christians for Nostradamus, or hoarding all that gold and priceless shit in the vatican for themselves, when it could be used to help the needy/starving/war-torn.

I’m not a Catholic… so I don’t feel any need to defend the Vatican… I don’t understand why Nostradamus was so special… they burned far better men then he.


But whatever.

Nor will I forgive judaism for circumcision, or their racist beliefs.

Circumcision? What are you even talking about now?… I’m circumcised… what’s the big deal? So I cried in pain one day when I was a baby… what’s the problem? I’m frankly glad that I am… t’would be weird in my country if I weren’t.

Nor will I forgive islam for female genital mutilation and the headscarf (berkah).

That stuff is pretty misogynist and nasty… but not uncommon in the world… many cultural groups do such things.

Its about time someone fought for the human race instead of the magic man in the sky.

It isn’t that simple though. You’re not fighting for the magic men as much as the magic men allow many diverse groups to ally with each other against common foes. Religion dies if it doesn’t give you or your society something material. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church that was social stability, obedience, tolerance within Christendom (so long as people didn’t leave Christendom), and money.

Every religion gives individuals and societies something in return for their belief. Otherwise, the leaders and people wouldn’t support it.

The reason religion fails is because it stops giving people these material things.


At least, that’s my cynical take on it.

 

[Huwy]

Brutus:

"America, fuck yeah, freedom is the only way yeah."

Tell it to him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/burnedchild.jpg
And him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/bloodied_iraqichild.jpg
And him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/1_147151_1_6.jpg

If anything you just said had a thread of sincerity then why the killing of innocent people? Use of depleted uranium? Bombing of markets and wedding?
Torture and murder of prisoners?

If the problem was actually saddam the tyrant then why did they sell him all those WMDs to use on Iran before the first gulf war? (see photo of rumsfield with saddam).
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/SaddamRumsfeld.jpg

 

[Karmashock]

Unlike the terrorists, the death of innocents on our part is a mistake.

We've spent billions to try and be very specific with our targets. The war would have been much much cheaper if we didn't care about innocent life... and none of our people would have died.

 

[duendy]

Duendy

It is George the Liberator who has freed millions of Afghanis and now Iraqis.

d__ you mean personally? i had though his tight arse was safe. faaaar away from all that horror. surely you mean all thge soldiers who have had to go and get blown up and suffer all forms of potential iseases. some of them not more than KIDS!

The Iraqis are grateful for their ,opportunity to choose their own destiny. It is their God given right that has been trampled on by despots for so many years.

d Right. in your naiveity you imagine your christian hero Bush has done it to get rid of a despot do you? Not for oil? i see. And those grateful Iraqis. you dont think they have been duped ...by the very same system that duped their OWn peoples by staging a false election result that got back in that evil warmongerin slimeball?> can you not see what a sham it all is. ooops, i'm asking the wrong dude aren't i?
m


__

Freedom is worth fighting and dying for.

d__real freedom has never been got by fightin and dyin. wars will never create freedom. the US has a WAr INDUSTRY. it dont WANt freedom. if it had freedom it wouldn't have no war industry. dig?
As a mtter of interest. have you actually fought in a war? and have any of your children been fighting in Iraq? and ,oh yeah, have you ever lost your entire family in a war at any time?

Our forbearers fought and died for us so we could be free, now it is our turn to repay the debt and help others to achieve


our same blessinnnngs.[/Qnnnnmm

but we are NOT free! i know that, but you apparently do not

also B. you have the habit of conveniently
editing out crucial points from posts i sent. like for example, what is the point of having so-called free elections (hah) in a utterly TOXIC environment??

 

[Karmashock]

Are you really so crass as to believe that the US invaded another country just to please our war industry?

We're not evil dude.

we're not the "great satan"... I don't know where this radical stuff comes from... it isn't even well thought out.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

 

[surenderer]

Karma you seem to be in love with saying that "only radical Islam" is making this a religious war yet Bush himself said that"God told him to attack Sadaam" also he seems to be in love with calling anyone that opposes his invasion "evil" ( another religious term) Does it take an international court to tell you the invasion was illegal? Then you must think Sadaam or OBL are innocent also because nether of them has faced trial either. You know that only US might has stopped any reprecussions from anything happening to the US on this one....heck Sadaam had better reasons for invading Kuwaiit than the US did for invading him :m:

 

[Huwy]

"Humanism typically boils down to emotionalism, which isn’t a moral system so much as giving into primal instincts. It is animal philosophy."

You are referring to the "evolutionary perspective."
Too busy worrying about getting into heaven to get your facts straight? Oh thats right - its been that way for thousands of years.
Keep rallying for the ban of teaching evolutionary theory in schools.

"Unlike the terrorists, the death of innocents on our part is a mistake.
We've spent billions to try and be very specific with our targets. The war would have been much much cheaper if we didn't care about innocent life... and none of our people would have died. "

You obviously haven't seen the videos of innocent / injured people being targetted and killed?

Countless more westerners will die in this conflict that has been largely created by america's aggression, and continues because of the ignorance of people like you.


Duendy, the term humanism doesn't imply concern exclusively for human beings.
Humanists are troubled by the horrors the human race has caused animals and the environment and values their restoration and preservation.
After all we need a planet to live on right? May as well be a nice one.