What WARS has France won?

[crazy151drinker]

"The French took the brunt of the fighting... they were smack bang in the front line. If it wasn't for the French, there would have been no war for Britain, ANZAC, the U.S, and Russia to fight."

Well at least they didnt get steamrolled in WWI.....
Was France even part of WWII????

Once again, France needs to clone Napolean and get their balls back

 

[madanthonywayne]

You're giving the French too much credit. Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican.

 

[mountainhare]

crazy:

Was France even part of WWII????

France was captured pretty quickly, but the Free French did quite a lot of fighting, especially in North Africa. There were about 400,000 Free French Resistance soldiers by the time the Allies initiated D-Day.

 

[john smith]

Yer, they were brave as fuck aswell, withstanding brutal torture and interogation for days on end.Some of the bravest people in WW2 were said to be the french resistance fighters!

 

[Jaybee from his cast]

Yer, they were brave as fuck aswell, withstanding brutal torture and interogation for days on end.Some of the bravest people in WW2 were said to be the french resistance fighters!

It gets better...ever notice how the allies were able to sweep through France like a dose of salts, despite the Germans having in excess of a million men ready there?

It's all down to the French Resistance. They gave the Allies invaluable information about the German troop strength in and around Normandy, and their sabotage of supply lines prevented the 2nd SS Panzer Division from getting to Normandy in time to destroy the beachheads as they were being formed.

Once landed, the Resistance continued sabotaging German efforts to hold off the allies; with their supply chain of food, weapons and equipment being undermined at every turn, the German army had little choice but to retreat.

Even in retreat, the Resistance continued to deuce the Germans; when Allied commanders wanted to prevent a particular German garrison being reinforced, word was sneaked through a chain of informants...and then, quietly in the night, a series of bridges would be simultaneously blown up.

The Germans were fighting two enemies on the western front; those in front, and those behind their lines. The modern German nation today owes it's existance to the French Resistance...the Soviets would have completely overrun Germany without the French Resistance having done it's work.


Jaybee.

 

[River Ape]

I think Jaybee is giving a false impression. WWII was a deeply unhappy time for France. Resisters of the extreme left and extreme right betrayed their political enemies to the Gestapo. It is wrong to suppose that the forces of reaction all supported the Nazis. Many resistance groups drew their following from fervently nationalist far-right French elements, including monarchists and "cagoulards". Other, and more formidable, groups were controlled by the Communists. Generally speaking, the more extreme your political opinion, the more likely you were to be in the Resistance. The apolitical were inclined to accept the reality of the occupation.

In the closing months of the war, liberated Frenchmen embarked in a frenzy of revenge attacks ("l'épuration") upon members of the Milice and other supporters of the Vichy Regime, but much of the bloodshed was simply criminal or in settlement of personal feuds. 70,000 Frenchmen may have died.

In the period immediate after the war, most Frenchmen and women simply wished to forget about what had passed. Unless you were with people you knew, it was not good form to refer to the wartime period in conversation. Most people kept quiet about the roles they had played. General de Gaulle retired from the scene and waited until he was needed again.

Only after de Gaulle returned in time of crisis to lead his country again did the mythmaking about the role of the Resistance and the Free French really begin. There was a new generation of children who could be taught a new version of history. The truth is that the role played by the Resistance in the liberation of France was a small one. The allied invasion of France initially made slower progress than had been planned, but once the Germans had decided to abandon France they withdrew from the greater part of the country without any attempt to defend territory, to take up new defensive positions in the east and north. Here and there, locally, sabotage by Resistance groups was significant, but the French have constructed a revised history of their country that magnifies their role.

Certainly the Resistance included many men and women of the highest calibre, who often paid a terrible price. And there were those who kept their secrets despite sickening torture. I join with Jaybee in paying my respects to them.

 

[Von Chav]

It gets better...ever notice how the allies were able to sweep through France like a dose of salts, despite the Germans having in excess of a million men ready there?

It's all down to the French Resistance. They gave the Allies invaluable information about the German troop strength in and around Normandy, and their sabotage of supply lines prevented the 2nd SS Panzer Division from getting to Normandy in time to destroy the beachheads as they were being formed.

Once landed, the Resistance continued sabotaging German efforts to hold off the allies; with their supply chain of food, weapons and equipment being undermined at every turn, the German army had little choice but to retreat.

Even in retreat, the Resistance continued to deuce the Germans; when Allied commanders wanted to prevent a particular German garrison being reinforced, word was sneaked through a chain of informants...and then, quietly in the night, a series of bridges would be simultaneously blown up.

The Germans were fighting two enemies on the western front; those in front, and those behind their lines. The modern German nation today owes it's existance to the French Resistance...the Soviets would have completely overrun Germany without the French Resistance having done it's work.


Jaybee.

Very true. Although the Americans would claim it was because of their superior military support that the allies steam rolled through France. (Lets not forgett the Canadians eh?) I think it was also due to Hitler's somewhat dubious and unpredictable, irrational nature also. (Plus the fact that the Russkies were sweeping Westward, with Hitler in full retreat) I heard that the notorious waffen-SS 2nd panzer division was halted under Hitler's command in the foolish beleif that they would 'wait' for the allies to make the next move. (Hitler logic for you!)
Makes me wonder wether or not it was all part of France's plan to 'fall' under the heel of Hitler's Blitzkreig then create havok for an occupying force; afterall siezure of a country is the easy part, occupation not so. DeGaulle did prove to be an adept strategist, albeit somewhat cowardly in my opinion. Though I've always wondered if the Frenchies could have tried just alittle bit harder, especially upon seeing ole Adolf annex neighbouring countries before hand, and prehaps they could provided the British expeditionary force (BEF) with alittle more assistance, although as the German Kaiser said of the first BEF in WW1, it really was an ill-equiped "Contemptible little army." But in this instance I salute the French.

 

[Hapsburg]

Was France even part of WWII????

they were one of the first ones to declare war on Germany in WW2. So, yeah, they were.

 

[alain]

"Try telling that to the losers!"
thats my point, there is no war where both sides dont lose. whether it be people, money or even their innocence

 

[john smith]

Very true. Although the Americans would claim it was because of their superior military support that the allies steam rolled through France. (Lets not forgett the Canadians eh?)

Hey who said we were forgetting the canadians??

I heard that the notorious waffen-SS 2nd panzer division was halted under Hitler's command in the foolish beleif that they would 'wait' for the allies to make the next move. (Hitler logic for you!)

No no, i think your wrong here, allied forces, and french resistance made the ss 2nd panzer division virtually unable to move to the beach heads to crush the oposition there.They cut supply links, depot points and guided allies as to the where abouts of their positions. It wasnt Hitlers 'logic', that they should wait for them, it was that the situation dictaed that this was the best thing to do, given the circumstances.

Makes me wonder wether or not it was all part of France's plan to 'fall' under the heel of Hitler's Blitzkreig then create havok for an occupying force;

No offence, but thats just about the most stupid thing iv ever heard. They created 'havok' when the occupying forces had seized the country, because thats the only option they had left.

DeGaulle did prove to be an adept strategist, albeit somewhat cowardly in my opinion.

Though I've always wondered if the Frenchies could have tried just alittle bit harder, especially upon seeing ole Adolf annex neighbouring countries before hand,

and prehaps they could provided the British expeditionary force (BEF) with alittle more assistance, although as the German Kaiser said of the first BEF in WW1, it really was an ill-equiped "Contemptible little army."

But in this instance I salute the French.

Doesnt sound like you do!!!

 

[Von Chav]

Hey who said we were forgetting the canadians??

No one. I just get pissed off when the yanks take all the credit. Remember, the only reason why they entered the European theater of war was because Hitler declared war on them. The canadians never get enough credit.

No no, i think your wrong here, allied forces, and french resistance made the ss 2nd panzer division virtually unable to move to the beach heads to crush the oposition there.They cut supply links, depot points and guided allies as to the where abouts of their positions. It wasnt Hitlers 'logic', that they should wait for them, it was that the situation dictaed that this was the best thing to do, given the circumstances.

LMAO! To quote you John, "Thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!" I was refering to the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) despatched in 1940 to France, but on taking the Western offensive General John Gort was forced to retreat back to Dunkirk. I was'nt talking about the events after D-day. (Even if I was, you're wrong - they were never "bogged down" by the French resistence.) I take it you know nothing about the BEF then? (Besides the bloody 2nd SS Panzer division was in damn Russia at that time!!)
By D-Day (And I was'nt talking about D-day!!) the 2nd SS Panzer division was in France and while it had'nt established itself at the beachheads, it already occupied the vincinity of surrounding towns and villages. They were not bogged down by the allies at this point, and certainly not by the French resistance. On the contrary, during D day, the 2nd and 9th SS Panzer divisions held the allies back significantly long enough for the Germans to make a prudent retreat. Later they took part in the break through of the Ardennes (Area of the "Battle of the Bulge") forest and then back into Germany. I simply assumed it was Hitler logic that they were'nt established in a more formidable position!!

No offence, but thats just about the most stupid thing iv ever heard. They created 'havok' when the occupying forces had seized the country, because thats the only option they had left.

It's much harder to occupy than to conquer a country my simplistic friend. Go read Sun Tzu's "Art of War." The only formidable defence the French had was the Maginot Line. And they were always alittle twitchy following the events of the first world war, and when Hitler marched into the Ruhr it confirmed the worst. Remember, I was speculating as to wether it was part of their strategy, and not saying it was gospel. (In fact Britain augmented a similar plan if it were ever invaded by the Nazis.) Surely you have'nt wondered why they did'nt try harder, despite the effectivness of the Blitzkreig?

Doesnt sound like you do!!!

Since when have I been anti-French?

Go read GCSE History books my friend. Maybe theres some Terry Deary ones like "Hateful Hitler", "Nasty Nazis" or "Fearsome French." They'll suit your simplistic knowledge and non-existant understanding.

 

[mountainhare]

Von Chav:

The canadians never get enough credit.

I agree with you on that point. In fact, Canadians and Australians don't get much credit for their fighting in WWI and WWII, despite kicking a lot of ass. If the British didn't have the Australians and Canadians at their disposal, I doubt that they would have won both wars.

In fact, it was 4 Canadian, 4 Australian, and 2 British divisions which were responsible for turning the tide of trench warfare during 1918, at the Battle of Amiens. The combined might of the Canadians, Australians and British smashed through the German defenses, resulting in the taking of much artillery and German prisoners. Casualities on the allied side were quite low compared to those inflicted on German forces.

In fact, the losses on the German side were so bad, that the day this occurred was labelled 'the black day' of the German army. It's funny how the Germans never seemed to resent Australians or Canadians after WWI, since it was us who inflicted one of the worst defeats on them.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens

It's amazing how I wasn't taught the above at school, and instead had drilled into me how the Australians made a 'courageous' retreat from the Turkish forces at Gallipoli. Yeah right, there's something to celebrate... a retreat! Nothing about the desert rats in Tobruk, or how we fought guerilla warfare in the Phillipines against the Japanese. Just 'blah blah blah, Gallipoli, blah blah blah, retreat'.

 

[Von Chav]

Von Chav:

I agree with you on that point. In fact, Canadians and Australians don't get much credit for their fighting in WWI and WWII, despite kicking a lot of ass. If the British didn't have the Australians and Canadians at their disposal, I doubt that they would have won both wars.

Agreed. Maybe we do have something in common my surly commrade?

In fact, it was 4 Canadian, 4 Australian, and 2 British divisions which were responsible for turning the tide of trench warfare during 1918, at the Battle of Amiens. The combined might of the Canadians, Australians and British smashed through the German defenses, resulting in the taking of much artillery and German prisoners. Casualities on the allied side were quite low compared to those inflicted on German forces.

In fact, the losses on the German side were so bad, that the day this occurred was labelled 'the black day' of the German army. It's funny how the Germans never seemed to resent Australians or Canadians after WWI, since it was us who inflicted one of the worst defeats on them.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens

It's amazing how I wasn't taught the above at school, and instead had drilled into me how the Australians made a 'courageous' retreat from the Turkish forces at Gallipoli. Yeah right, there's something to celebrate... a retreat! Nothing about the desert rats in Tobruk, or how we fought guerilla warfare in the Phillipines against the Japanese. Just 'blah blah blah, Gallipoli, blah blah blah, retreat'.

Thanks for the link. I'll look into it. You seem to have done your history homework. Agreed, - the topic of British involvement in the Phillipines and the Desert Rats at Tobruk are both understated topics, and for the purposes of secondary school education at least have either been diluted or erased completely. I always jibber on and on about how the ANZACS and Canadians should be given aleast equal (if not more in my opinion) credit than the Americans, but I've always rattled on and on more about thier involvement in WW2 than WW1. My knowledge of WW1 is alittle hazy, but come to think about it, they do deserve an equal amount of credit for their involvement here and in WW2. Thanks for the input.

 

[Hapsburg]

The way I see it, the British, French, etc. had the skill and the Americans gave the extra manpower nessisary. Think of it like this:
You have a set of scales. In 1914, Side B has 10 and Side A has five weights. In 1915, Side B has 7 and Side A has 6. In 1916, Side B has 6 and Side A has 6. In 1917, Side B has 5 and Side A has 6. In early 1918, Side B has 6 and Side A has 9, by the end of 1918, Side B has 2 and Side A has 10.
Side A = Allies.
Side B = Centrals.
The Americans provided the additional numbers needed to push forward the final offensive, but the majority of the skill was in the BEF and ANZAC and French army.

 

[mountainhare]

Von Chav:

I always jibber on and on about how the ANZACS and Canadians should be given aleast equal (if not more in my opinion) credit than the Americans,

Look at the timeline of WWI. Look at when the ANZACS and Canadians rushed to the aid of Britain (almost as soon as war had been declared on Britain, in 1914), and then when America decided to join in the fun (Declared war in 1917, but U.S troops joined the other Allies on the front in 1918). Trust America to join in when everyone had expended their resources and manpower!

Quite simply, America didn't really care less about a European War. Hell, why would it help Britain, who it had fought a bloody war against? Why would it feel indebted to a country which had burnt Washington D.C to the ground? Canada and Australia were on much better terms with Britain. After all, Australia hadn't fought any bloody wars with Britain (I'm not sure about Canada? I don't know much about the Canadians, except that they were once a British colony).

The main reason America joined the war was because the Germans were trigger happy with their submarines, which threatened America's shipping industries. Coming out of the top of the heap after winning the war was an added bonus of joining so late.

It's interesting, because Canada and Australia seem to be quite similiar in many ways, especially in the context of WW1. Before WW1, Canada and Australia + New Zealand (which I believe Australia should annex!) were merely seen as extensions of the British Empire. After WW1, the bravery and grit of Canadian and Australian soldiers helped to define Canada and Australia as separate nations, who could stand on their own two feet. Australia was no longer some hunk of nameless rock in the southern hemisphere, it was 'Hey, didn't those guys send up the ANZACS? Man, they kick ass!'

 

[Paraclete]

After all the Canadians and the aussies were members of the British Empire - they HAD to join immediately in the war ............
Still they fought bravely, NO doubt about that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw the ANZAC cemetery in Turkey - all those young brave men gave their lives for the British Empire !!!!!!!!!!

They truly wrote millitary history with blood !!!!!!!

 

[Paraclete]

US of A is no longer a member of the British Empire - so they are entitled to have their OWN foreign policy !!!

 

[Paraclete]

The sinking of the ship Lusitania (carrying a lot of american passengers) by a german sub - started an opinion of the germans as bad guys - and at last USA joined WW1.

In WW2 Hitlers 2 biggest mistakes was declaring war on USA and invading USSR - when he did that , he had a 2 front war against enemies that could NOT be beaten !!
A SURE road to defeat !!

Actually a way of suicide .............

 

[Roman]

What was the major battle in WWI where a relatively small force of Canadians held out against a huge German force? Was it a battle of Epres?

 

[Paraclete]

The most famous battle for the Canadians was probably the battle of Vimy Ridge , april 9, 1917 - they beat the germans - but lost 1400 men themselves .......