What to HATE, What NOT to TOLERATE & Islam.

[DoctorNO]

Is it good to hate sometimes? Is it good to be intolerant from time to time?

I think so.

* It is good to hate falsehood
* It is good to hate murder
* It is good to hate sexism
* It is good to hate racism
* It is good to hate oppression
* It is good to hate nazism

Similarly...

* It is good to be intolerant of deciet
* It is good to be intolerant of murder
* It is good to be intolerant of oppression
* It is good to be intolerant of sexism
* It is good to be intolerant of slavery
* It is good to be intolerant of intolerant ideologies.

 

[DoctorNO]

But hey you said Bush AND DoctorNO. What do I have to do with any of that?

No I said people who hate as you hate. Those who think like you and believe like you do.

I hate Islam because it encourages people to hate me. It explicitly says that Allah has no love for non-muslims. So guess how religious muslims would look at you & me.

And my behaviour? What about my behaviour you don’t like? And to be fair could you please state what about my behaviour that you like so much.

You must understand that. Islam is wrong because it is intolerant, discrimatory, sexist and anti-freedom.

I think you know what and how I meant it. And to tell you the truth, I find your ideology and others who think as you do just as dangerous and similar to Nazism. You single out one group of people for their belief. You see them as evil and being less than you. You call their God a false God, therefore their beliefs are false and flawed. You denigrate and insult them and put them down, much like the Nazis put down the Jews. You refer to Nazism as being bad, yet your comments on Islam is very similar to Nazi thoughts and beliefs.

Am only intolerant of dangerous ideologies, NOT of people. Please see the difference. Please tell me how you would tolerate ideas that could not tolerate specific people? Like this one….

• 
  Quran 4:34 "...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds, beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means : For Allah is Most High, great.

How on earth would you tolerate that idea, not unless you agree with domestic violence.

And you are intolerant, discriminatory and wish to deny them their freedom of believing in their God. So that would make you just as, if not more, wrong.

Huuuwhaaaat???? You must be joking. Im not twisting any arms here. Im not denying anybody of anything. Im only arguing and warning people of the dangers & falsehood of Islam.

 

[Bells]

I hate Islam because it encourages people to hate me. It explicitly says that Allah has no love for non-muslims. So guess how religious muslims would look at you & me.

Well my friends and family who've converted to Islam don't look at me with hate. Actually we're quite close.

And my behaviour? What about my behaviour you don’t like? And to be fair could you please state what about my behaviour that you like so much.

You hate with such zeal and you try to cover it up with humour. You blame Muslims for hating you when you hate them just as much if not more.

Please tell me how you would tolerate ideas that could not tolerate specific people? Like this one….

Quran 4:34 "...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds, beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means : For Allah is Most High, great.

Well all the 'good books' are filled with such messages of intolerance. I just think it unfair and hypocritical to only point the finger at one.

How on earth would you tolerate that idea, not unless you agree with domestic violence.

Ah, but you assume that all Muslims tolerate this idea and that all Muslims beat their wives. So are we to assume that since stoning one's children is allowed in the old testatment that all Catholics are outside throwing rocks at their misbehaving children? Are we to assume that Catholics tolerate this idea? No, we would not. Some do (ie the NRA) but the majority do not. The same goes for Muslims. Wife beating or abuse occurs in all of society, not just the Muslim society. And don't dare assume that women in the Bible are seen to be equal. Because they are not. Women in the bible are seen to be chattels, unequal and owned. You are only looking at the bad aspect of one religion. You refuse to look at the bad aspects of other religions and you refuse to look at the good aspects of Islam as well. Maybe you should be a bit more open minded and not assume that all Muslims beat their wives or hate you.

 

[DoctorNO]

Well my friends and family who've converted to Islam don't look at me with hate. Actually we're quite close.

Sometimes love rules above the clutches of religion. Your closeness to your muslim loved ones has little to do with islam and much to do with human nature.

You hate with such zeal and you try to cover it up with humour. You blame Muslims for hating you when you hate them just as much if not more.

I don’t blame muslims of anything. I only blame Islam. Didn’t I confuse you for being a muslim? And were I hostile to you? You see I have muslim friends myself and some of them know of my stance against Islam. I take care not to hate people for what they believe. It is my concern with people why I am against the ideologies of Islam. Don’t you think the world would be a lot better if hindus can enter the kaaba & adore its beauty? When arabs, Iranians & Americans work together without any religious discrimination?

Well all the 'good books' are filled with such messages of intolerance. I just think it unfair and hypocritical to only point the finger at one.

Don’t worry other agnostics are pointing their fingers at the bible and the Talmud. One person can only do as much. I don’t bother attacking Christianity because I can see it had generally evolved into a truly peaceful religion. Although there are still a bit of bias in it, they don’t cause any significant harm.

Ah, but you assume that all Muslims tolerate this idea and that all Muslims beat their wives.

The same goes for Muslims. Wife beating or abuse occurs in all of society, not just the Muslim society.

Most, not all. And I never said muslims beat their wives. What I hear though is that some muslims use this verse to justify domestic violence. So you see this verse serves as an excuse to resort to violence. What better to do violence than with “god’s” blessings? Like amputating petty thieves & blowing up civilians? Islam is so unethical.

So are we to assume that since stoning one's children is allowed in the old testatment that all Catholics are outside throwing rocks at their misbehaving children? Are we to assume that Catholics tolerate this idea? No, we would not. Some do (ie the NRA) but the majority do not.

Don’t you still see the difference there? The Old Testament is generally viewed as Historical backdrop where the laws where given to the ancient Jews and not to Christians. The Quran is viewed as a doctrine to be followed in its entirety for the rest of time. That is why muslims stone people and Christians don’t. You must view these things in context. The NRA is too insignificant to make an example, they haven’t stoned anybody just yet.

And don't dare assume that women in the Bible are seen to be equal. Because they are not. Women in the bible are seen to be chattels, unequal and owned.

In the New Testament there are verses which suggests that women are to be given equal rights with men. Like the commandment to love wives as husbands love their own body. Aside from that we can see that Christians all around the world do treat their women with equality. You can know a tree by its fruit.

You are only looking at the bad aspect of one religion. You refuse to look at the bad aspects of other religions and you refuse to look at the good aspects of Islam as well

Because nowadays all the other religions are practically harmless. So why waste my time with them?

Maybe you should be a bit more open minded and not assume that all Muslims beat their wives or hate you.

I never assumed that. Never.

 

[path]

Doctor does any of your vehemence towards islam come from personal experience? I know you have Islamist guerillas in the phillipines who are pretty merciless towards kafir. I don't think hate is a beneficial emotion for human beings when you see something like muhajiroun telling muslims "it is their duty to hate kafir" you should get angry, I know I do, but hatred works against you. Instead just try and calmly expose that about islam that you feel is wrong. The fact is many pious muslims don't realize everything that is written in koran and hadith and would be shocked to find out Some like PM deny or don't listen. You may get through to somebody but you never will with hate.

 

[DoctorNO]

Oh it was really nothing personal. Before 9/11 I was just a regular Forumer enjoying his time talking nonsense with other users in www.PinoyExchange.com . 9/11 came with a shock and triggered all sorts of discussions about Islam. Suddenly there is this muslim guy called MENJ. Defending islam while throwing ridiculous accusations at everybody else. It was fun refuting his accusations while looking for something to throw at him. And it was also interesting how muslims blamed everything to the jews. It was ridiculous. Those things really got me into Islam. And the more I learned the more I became concerned about the future.

 

[Tiassa]

Dr. No, I was wondering whether I could get you to comment on whether or not you agree with the following:

Religions are just fine as long as nobody takes them seriously.​

It explicitly says that Allah has no love for non-muslims.

If you would be so kind as to provide your Quranic reference, I'd be happy to attempt commentary on that because, while I have no family members converting to any religions right now, I find your characterization of Islam to be inconsistent with observation.

 

[DoctorNO]

If you would be so kind as to provide your Quranic reference, I'd be happy to attempt commentary on that because, while I have no family members converting to any religions right now, I find your characterization of Islam to be inconsistent with observation.

No problemo. Here...

• 
  Quran 003.032
  
  Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

 

[Bells]

So is your hate for Islam a result of you feeling unloved by Allah?

Funny though, christian missionaries used to travel the world (and still do) telling people that unless they converted to christianity, God would not love them and that they'd go to hell.

 

[Bells]

Aside from that we can see that Christians all around the world do treat their women with equality. You can know a tree by its fruit.

Mmmm hmmm... tell that to the women in the Anglican church who are trying to break into the hierarchy of the church and be allowed to be ordained as Bishops, but are told no. Yes, they really experienced equality in their fight for being allowed to become priests, but that's all they're allowed to do. Tell me something NO, what role does the woman really have in Christianity that is of any consequence? How is she deemed to be equal when the bible itself tells the woman that she is basically the chattel belonging to her husband and that the husband is the uber individual in the household. Yeah, Christians do treat their women with equality.

 

[DoctorNO]

So is your hate for Islam a result of you feeling unloved by Allah?

Oh no, I dont give a damn about their virtual "allah". That love thingie merely serves as one of my arguments. And an explanation to muslim behavior.

I hate islam because of the oppression that results from it, combined with its grand ambition for world domination. Oppression like 9/11, 3/11, abu sayyaf, somalia, chechnya, hindu massacres, libya, palestine etc. Humanity could not afford to underestimate or overlook islam.

Funny though, christian missionaries used to travel the world (and still do) telling people that unless they converted to christianity, God would not love them and that they'd go to hell.

Oh boy reena, here we go again.

Bells being a former christian I am very knowledgable of christian doctrines, sects and histories. I have never heard anything about your allegation. In fact it is the opposite. Christians believe that God loved the world of sinners that he gave his only begotten son blah blah blah.

I dont think there is anyway you could prove that assertion.

 

[DoctorNO]

Mmmm hmmm... tell that to the women in the Anglican church who are trying to break into the hierarchy of the church and be allowed to be ordained as Bishops, but are told no. Yes, they really experienced equality in their fight for being allowed to become priests, but that's all they're allowed to do.

Bells a job is a priviledge, not a right. Do understand the difference between those two? And jobs do have specific requirements. Men could not work as a hooters waiter. Men could not become a nun in the convent. Men finds it difficult being accepted as a nurse or a beautician. Etc etc etc.

Tell me something NO, what role does the woman really have in Christianity that is of any consequence? How is she deemed to be equal when the bible itself tells the woman that she is basically the chattel belonging to her husband and that the husband is the uber individual in the household. Yeah, Christians do treat their women with equality.

You are 50% correct. Read….

• 
  1Co 7:4 –
  
  The wife gives authority over her body to her husband, and the husband also gives authority over his body to his wife.
  
  
  Eph 5:33 –
  
  So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Do you see now? The wife belongs to the husband BUT the husband also belongs to the wife (1 cor 7:4). And a husband must treat her wife equally as he treats his self (Eph 5:33)

 

[okinrus]

Yes, they really experienced equality in their fight for being allowed to become priests, but that's all they're allowed to do. Tell me something NO, what role does the woman really have in Christianity that is of any consequence? How is she deemed to be equal when the bible itself tells the woman that she is basically the chattel belonging to her husband and that the husband is the uber individual in the household. Yeah, Christians do treat their women with equality.

Equality has never meant equality of role. It's clear men cannot raise children. There are roles men cannot perform and there are roles women cannot perform.

No, Paul does not say women are chattel, but women should be obedient to their husband, obeying their role as wives. In addition to this, Paul says man and women are equal within Christ.

 

[Bells]

DoctorNO

Bells being a former christian I am very knowledgable of christian doctrines, sects and histories. I have never heard anything about your allegation. In fact it is the opposite. Christians believe that God loved the world of sinners that he gave his only begotten son blah blah blah.

I dont think there is anyway you could prove that assertion.

Sigh... I'll give you one example. India. Here is just one gem of a quote which says quite a bit.

The last point was brought to us in sharp focus during our interactions with a few tribals of Arunachal, who voiced the same distress at the methods used to secure conversions to Christianity: not only monetary allurements, but psychological pressure on the sick, promises of cure upon conversion, pressures to rope in the rest of the family when the promises don't materialize, and finally to throw out of the family those who continue to "worship Satan".

Charming isn't it? That quote was taken from here:

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Conversion.htm#Conversion: A Fraud on Humanity

Which gives many examples of writings from people such as Ghandi about the manner in which Christians attempted to convert the Hindus. It's a disgusting read and frankly shameful. An example of their ongoing and continuing disgusting practice:

We heard several heart-rending tales of teenage boys or girls having been thus expelled from their families when they refused to convert, accused by their own parents of being "Satan". Converted families are then instructed not to have contacts with the non-Christians, as a result of which they refuse to take part in traditional harvests and other aspects of the community's collective life; the centuries-old harmonious working of the community suddenly becomes divided, and indeed division is a great way to secure conversions: "divide and convert", until you can "divide and rule". That ultimate step is already visible in the militant movements of the North-East, most of which are rooted in Christian ideology. Witness the conversions the militants secure at gunpoint in remote villages at night, a fact asserted to us repeatedly. I remembered a Don Bosco father in Tamil Nadu telling me a few years ago how "tribes have no future within the Indian Union" and explaining why he was exhorting them "to take up guns". It all fell into place."

Such actions and practices still continue to this day. And you criticise just Islam? Read through that thread and you'll see what I was trying to say to you. That thread I gave you has writings from various political, religious and human rights people in India, both past and present. Just click on the "Conversion: Fraud on Humanity in the contents and it gives you better and reference details. The rest of the article is mostly on India's history and what conversion has done to its people throughout time.

Okinrus

It's clear men cannot raise children. There are roles men cannot perform and there are roles women cannot perform.

Oh you have got to be kidding me! Tell that to all the single parent fathers out there. That would have to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard you say in here.

And pray tell, how can women not be able to be a bishop for example? How would her being a woman restrict her in performing her role as a bishop? Is she not equal to a man as you say in the eyes of God and Jesus?

 

[Flores]

So is your hate for Islam a result of you feeling unloved by Allah?

Funny though, christian missionaries used to travel the world (and still do) telling people that unless they converted to christianity, God would not love them and that they'd go to hell.

But you said, that god doesn't love the non muslims, while the Quran said that god doesn't love the unbelievers. Christians, jews, buhdists, ect, are all believers. The bible talks the same exact way as the Quran. God have never loved the unbelievers, whether you elect to read Quran, Bible, Torah, ect....It's not something that is specific for Islam and muslims.

 

[Bells]

Ermm Flores, it was doctorNO who made the claim that God didn't love non muslims. I was just pointing out to him that was the same line christian missionaries used when converting the indigenous and native peoples... in the hope that he'd understand that such claims are ridiculous.

 

[DoctorNO]

But you said, that god doesn't love the non muslims, while the Quran said that god doesn't love the unbelievers. Christians, jews, buhdists, ect, are all believers. The bible talks the same exact way as the Quran. God have never loved the unbelievers, whether you elect to read Quran, Bible, Torah, ect....It's not something that is specific for Islam and muslims.

Christians & Jews are called People of the Book in Islam, and in some obscure way classifiable as believers too. Depending on interpretation.

Buddhists, Hindus, pagans, athiests, & agnostics are clearly unbelievers by quranic standards.

My assertion still stands that the quranic Allah has no love for non-muslims.

 

[DoctorNO]

Sigh... I'll give you one example. India. Here is just one gem of a quote which says quite a bit.

Charming isn't it? That quote was taken from here:

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/C...20on Humanity

Which gives many examples of writings from people such as Ghandi about the manner in which Christians attempted to convert the Hindus. It's a disgusting read and frankly shameful. An example of their ongoing and continuing disgusting practice:

But bells, read that quote again and compare it to your initial assertion...

• 
  "christian missionaries used to travel the world (and still do) telling people that unless they converted to christianity, God would not love them"

So does your source support your argument? I think not.

And your source site is clearly biased, being called "atributetohinduism". Looks like they exaggerated some things…like being called “satan”, it is illogical. More evidence required.

Such actions and practices still continue to this day. And you criticise just Islam?

That allegation was not justified. But even if it was true it only happened to a couple of Indians. A very isolated case. Totally unlike Islam which has the monopoly on oppression everywhere you go.

Read through that thread and you'll see what I was trying to say to you. That thread I gave you has writings from various political, religious and human rights people in India, both past and present. Just click on the "Conversion: Fraud on Humanity in the contents and it gives you better and reference details. The rest of the article is mostly on India's history and what conversion has done to its people throughout time.

When looking for source articles please try to avoid biased sites. There are thousands of neutral history & news sites out there. If you cant find any that supports your argument then maybe your argument was flawed.

 

[Flores]

Ermm Flores, it was doctorNO who made the claim that God didn't love non muslims. I was just pointing out to him that was the same line christian missionaries used when converting the indigenous and native peoples... in the hope that he'd understand that such claims are ridiculous.

But Bells, Quran has been far more tolerant that the bible toward the diverse basis of belief. Can you find an equivalent bible verse to those ones.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


Now, the hypocracy of christianity is beyond belief, when they don't even agree with jews on the status of Jesus Christ while both parties study the same exact book....just to show you their extreme level of intolerance. This is what the Quran had to say about this apparant irnoy.

[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

It's not the muslims that judge others. Actually we are taught that god is the only entity responsible for judging others. On the other hand, christians will not hesitate to call me the "unsaved" in their churches. They will never be please with us muslims until they dip us in their holy water and force us to commit disbelieve in the universal creator by acknowledging that a mortal man called Jesus is god.

[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

And the jews call themselves the chosen one and the christians claim proprietorship over their royal lineage to Isaac. Islam never does that, for it's the true religion of equality. They'll always tell me that I'm not on the right course until I follow their believe exactly, and they'll claim that they know the exact god way and that they are his children...bogus bull shit....They'll make up shit and ask me to follow it blindly.

[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

They'll make up crap about how certain people are jewish or christians, and how Abraham was really a christian and Jesus was really a jew...Give me a break. Islam so clearly denounce tribal instincts and proprietorship. We are all believers and submitters to god, and to god is our judgement and return.

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
The Dinner Table

 

[Flores]

Buddhists, Hindus, pagans, athiests, & agnostics are clearly unbelievers by quranic standards.

Wrong....You know nothing.
Buddhists, Hindus, ect...were never classified by god as non-believers. Do you know what Sabians are? Sabians are an ancient religion that believed in the universal unified spirit that dwells in all living beings...They are basically the same thing as Buddhists and Hindus and they were labeled in the Quran as believers.

My assertion still stands that the quranic Allah has no love for non-muslims.

Your assertion is wrong...God states that all humans are born as muslims or submitters to god, on the other hand the bible states that all humans are created as rotten sinners. God states that It's what we do with our life that distance us or draw us nearer to god. The hopeless christianity condemn the little babies to hell since they are born sinners, then make up lies about a tortured prophet dyiing for the sin to make sense of the first orignial sin lie. And by the way. the Quranic Allah is your and mine god whether you like it or not. Our creator is the same, even if you were an alien. You seek to magnify the difference in language and make falsehood out of them, but at the end of the day, you are insulting your own creator and your conscious will not be pleased with you. You are only hurting yourself.