What responsibility do relig./spirit. organizations have toward failed aspirants?

[Syne]

For example, from Buddhism:

Then the focus on having a spiritual master:

And from the Bible:

Nice quote mining. Why don't we look at that in context?

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

"And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve ... right speech ... right action ... right livelihood ... right effort ... right mindfulness ... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.

"And through this line of reasoning one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me [Blessed One] as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release [success] from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. It is through this line of reasoning that one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life." -http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.002.than.html

This is a lesson similar to the adage: "Love yourself, for if you don't, how can you expect anybody else to love you?" Here speaking of your higher self.

Where in this, other than your hasty reading, is this supposed "team effort"?

I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him. -http://vedabase.net/bg/introduction/en

How is this any different from seeking a teacher on any subject? You'll notice that being given knowledge is not the success. The success is living up to that knowledge, which is the personal responsibility.

Matthew 18.20
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.​

And what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?


Keep fishing.

 

[wynn]

Where in this, other than your hasty reading, is this supposed "team effort"?

"This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path."

In Buddhism, it is customary to take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.
The Sangha is the society of people who also pursue the holy life.

How is this any different from seeking a teacher on any subject? You'll notice that being given knowledge is not the success. The success is living up to that knowledge, which is the personal responsibility.

If one is taught the wrong things, then, obviously, one won't be met with much success, no matter how much one practices according to what one is taught.
However, as a newcomer, one can't discern what are the right things and what are the wrong things.

Matthew 18.20
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.​

And what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?

I'll put it this way: Have you ever attempted to be part of a religious/spiritual organization?

Keep fishing.

Aren't you a daisy.

 

[Syne]

"This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path."

In Buddhism, it is customary to take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.
The Sangha is the society of people who also pursue the holy life.

Way to continue ignoring the context of your link. And what does "tak[ing] refuge" have to do with spiritual success?

If one is taught the wrong things, then, obviously, one won't be met with much success, no matter how much one practices according to what one is taught.
However, as a newcomer, one can't discern what are the right things and what are the wrong things.

If you lack discernment, then perhaps that is something you should cultivate on your own (perhaps with a study of comparative religion) so you might be better equipped to choose a teacher. Those teachers don't have any idea that they may be wrong, due to the subjective nature of the endeavor.

I'll put it this way: Have you ever attempted to be part of a religious/spiritual organization?

You've avoided enough of my questions. So what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?

 

[wynn]

Way to continue ignoring the context of your link. And what does "tak[ing] refuge" have to do with spiritual success?

You've avoided enough of my questions. So what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?

At the rsik of sounding glib, I will say that if you would approach some of the major religious/spiritual organizations, you'd quickly see both what the concept of taking refuge is about, as well as the role of like-minded people.


(For more information on taking refuge, see here.)

 

[Syne]

At the rsik of sounding glib, I will say that if you would approach some of the major religious/spiritual organizations, you'd quickly see both what the concept of taking refuge is about, as well as the role of like-minded people.


(For more information on taking refuge, see here.)

You have yet to provide a single reference that shows that "most", or even "many", relio-spiritual organizations require the efforts of others to secure success for the individual.

And for the third time now, what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success? You've done another hasty reading and come away thinking "refuge" in some way supports your assertion of limited individual responsibility.

The act of going for refuge marks the point where one commits oneself to taking the Dhamma, or the Buddha's teaching, as the primary guide to one's life. To understand why this commitment is called a "refuge," it's helpful to look at the history of the custom.

In pre-Buddhist India, going for refuge meant proclaiming one's allegiance to a patron — a powerful person or god — submitting to the patron's directives in hopes of receiving protection from danger in return. -http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html#goi

This is the same as simply proclaiming yourself a member of some such organization. This is nowhere near an ultimate success.


Seriously, you seem to only be interested in looking for ways to absolve your own irresponsibility in the matter. If that's the path for you, like I've said, I'd suggest atheism of agnosticism. No organizations of any note to worry about at all.

 

[wynn]

Seriously, you seem to only be interested in looking for ways to absolve your own irresponsibility in the matter.

At this point, I am more interested in why I seem this way to you.

In my view, saying that admirable friendship is the whole of the holy life, or that without the guidance of a spiritual master, one lives in the darkness of ignorance, mean that without the input from - qualified - others, one is spiritually lost, and I find this meaning to be unproblematic.

I don't understand how come someone asks a question like "what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?"
To me, based on my experience, it seems self-evident that it does.

Somehow, you don't see the passages I posted as examples of spiritual team effort, while I do. I am not sure I can explain any further, at least not at this point.

 

[aaqucnaona]

At this point, I am more interested in why I seem this way to you.

In my view, saying that admirable friendship is the whole of the holy life, or that without the guidance of a spiritual master, one lives in the darkness of ignorance, mean that without the input from - qualified - others, one is spiritually lost, and I find this meaning to be unproblematic.

I don't understand how come someone asks a question like "what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?"
To me, based on my experience, it seems self-evident that it does.

Somehow, you don't see the passages I posted as examples of spiritual team effort, while I do. I am not sure I can explain any further, at least not at this point.

Ah, the familiar tactics - so refreshing on a hot summer day.

 

[Syne]

At this point, I am more interested in why I seem this way to you.

In my view, saying that admirable friendship is the whole of the holy life, or that without the guidance of a spiritual master, one lives in the darkness of ignorance, mean that without the input from - qualified - others, one is spiritually lost, and I find this meaning to be unproblematic.

I don't understand how come someone asks a question like "what does the mutual encouragement of like-minded people have to do with spiritual success?"
To me, based on my experience, it seems self-evident that it does.

Somehow, you don't see the passages I posted as examples of spiritual team effort, while I do. I am not sure I can explain any further, at least not at this point.

All for naught.

 

[wynn]

Ah, the familiar tactics - so refreshing on a hot summer day.

When people interact with eachother, they have intentions for doing so. Being unaware of those intentions or lying about them can lead to glitches in communication.

 

[aaqucnaona]

When people interact with eachother, they have intentions for doing so. Being unaware of those intentions or lying about them can lead to glitches in communication.

Sure. But you make no attempt to clarify it so far, you did it only when you needed a deflection - that is what the critique was against.