What makes you certain that you've chosen the correct faith?

Mind Over Matter said:
The articles I've presented to you have given names and dates for studies, and have outlined the conclusions they've been able to make about the Eucharistic Miracles
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http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#9
9. The Argument from Miracles
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This means that the setting of a supposed miracle is crucially important. Not just the physical setting, and not just the timing, but the personal setting is vital as well—the character and the message of the person to whom this event is specially tied. Take, for example, four or five miracles from the New Testament. Remove them completely from their context, from the teaching and character of Christ. Would it be wrong to see their religious significance as thereby greatly diminished? After all, to call some happening a miracle is to interpret it religiously. But to interpret it that way demands a context or setting which invites such interpretation. And part of this setting usually, though not always, involves a person whose moral authority is first recognized, and whose religious authority, which the miracle seems to confirm, is then acknowledged.

Abstract discussions of probability usually miss this factor. But setting does play a decisive role. Many years ago, at an otherwise dull convention, a distinguished philosopher explained why he had become a Christian. He said: "I picked up the New Testament with a view to judging it, to weighing its pros and cons. But as I began to read, I realized that I was the one being judged." Certainly he came to believe in the miracle—stories. But it was the character and teaching of Christ that led him to accept the things recounted there as genuine acts of God.
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IOW, the debate of miracles is pointless unless the other person understands their religious setting.

Without a religious interpretation, some oddities are just oddities, not miracles.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
That's not what I said. It's overwhelmingly sufficient evidence for me. For many others, too! But we are "open" to the possibility of the supernatural, whereas you presume everything you hear about the supernatural is false, and are willing to assume the truth of any skeptical theory you hear rather than seriously consider the possibility that God is intervening. That's prejudice masquerading as reason.

He gives plentiful evidence to those who desire Him and seek Him. To those that are closed to Him, though, He allows them sufficient wiggle room to irrationally deny and reject Him.
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Can you teach me how to become insensitive like that?

It must be great to not care about others!
 
Signal said:
IOW, the debate of miracles is pointless unless the other person understands their religious setting.

Without a religious interpretation, some oddities are just oddities, not miracles.
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That is true. Yet the reverse is also true, that some oddities are so extreme that they demand a religious interpretation. The events in Zietoun, which I cited before, are I believe a good example of such a case. So are the events at Fatima. The fact that the apostles died for their belief that they had seen Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead, had spoken with Him and had eaten meals with Him after His resurrection, also is an "oddity" that cries out for faith.

The Eucharistic Miracle of Buennos Aires, which I cited for you, and numerous other Eucharistic Miracles, are further incredible events that call strongly for a religious interpretation. People who haven't studied them at all can dismiss them out of hand without thinking about them, because they are sure to begin with that a miracle did not take place. But they are not acting as reasonable people but as prejudiced people, when they make negative unsupported assumptions to dispose of the evidence.

Religious people sometimes can be too gullible in accepting miracle stories, yet skeptical people also can be too gullible in giving credence to any argument they read that purports to discredit a miracle. I probably tend toward the gullible, myself, because I've seen miracles in my life and so have many of my friends and family, who I know to be trustworthy. So because of my life experience and upbringing, I tend to know that such things happen and therefore am not surprised when I hear similar things from other people.

I've met plenty of people who tend toward the incredulous, though, and automatically distrust everything they hear, or give preference to any non-religious explanation they can come up with, however absurd. This is another form of gullibility and bias.

Skeptics are often gullible in accepting out of hand the skeptical arguments they hear, without investigation, while religious people also can be gullible in accepting what they hear too readily.

I've seen skeptical arguments win in some debates, and religious arguments win in others.

We live in a very big, complicated world. It's good to be open minded.
 
Yet the reverse is also true, that some oddities are so extreme that they demand a religious interpretation. The events in Zietoun, which I cited before, are I believe a good example of such a case. So
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No way dude, it's just too ridiculous.

Have you ever seen a magic trick and not known how it was done?
Have you ever met a scam artist?
Has there ever been a 'bad' Catholic?

If you can answer YES YES YES, then by golly, it's logically no miracle!

Trust me, if God moved Mt. Everest I would believe it was a miracle. I'm not gullible enough to invest interest in the Zietoun though. People like you just encourage others to invent a cult-like websites with donations. I bet I could convince you to donate money to me judging by your gullibility.

Yes, it's good to be open minded. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. I can't say anymore, there seems little point. Every nook and cranny available for someone to make a buck - they will take it... people like that especially prey on magical thinkers.

Bahumbug this is FUBAR. This is my last post on this thread, why should I try to convince you? Keep believing. Just don't put a damn coin in that donation box, it's your hard-earned money.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
That is true. Yet the reverse is also true, that some oddities are so extreme that they demand a religious interpretation.
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That would be a trivialization of religion/religiousness.


The fact that the apostles died for their belief that they had seen Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead, had spoken with Him and had eaten meals with Him after His resurrection, also is an "oddity" that cries out for faith.
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Perhaps you think this is an oddity, but I don't.
 
We live in a very big, complicated world. It's good to be open minded.
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I can't stay away from this juicy thread. I am re-motivated to shoot again.

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/mrwagihr.htm
Take a look at those pictures. Am I being closed-minded for opening multiple interpretations of the 'unidentified flying object' above the Zeitoun?

They appear to be bedsheets with spotlights, if I'm not mistaken. It's probably more likely as no miracle is required for my claim.

You love miracles, they are close to you. Giving up miracles is not a fun sport - it rips the fantasy and fun right out of life. Imagine there really were no miracles... what a drab, what confusion there is that humans have such ultimate decisions. Without miracles nuclear weapons seem more powerful than ever. If you shift lenses and see the world without miracles it's not pretty. But it's logical. The evidence for Zeitoun hoax outweighs the evidence for Zeitoun miracle.

Zeitoun Hoax:

Many people have the ability to fool millions of viewers. Like flying saucers, crop circles, and Las Vegas magic shows. Having an audience of 1 million people fooled requires good talent but has been a normal showing in human history. Think of the Aztecs staring at the eclipse and being fooled of 'rapture' or something like that. A large number of people convinced something is true, does not make that thing true, as history constantly reminds us.

Most people are motivated by money, even Catholics. The Catholic church is many ways motivated by money, assuming that they did not acquire their vast wealth over centuries of luck.

Assuming that most Catholics are not after wealth, some probably are. Every large group will have a few dishonest members. There is a bad apple in every group in other words, and Catholics are not exempt from this as is evident in recent worldwide child-sex scandals.

So we can confident in two claims:
1. Some Catholics are 'bad', and motivated by financial gains.
2. Some people have the ability to fool millions of people.

Now how to we bridge the gap between those two claims to call the Zeitoun a hoax?

We would have to assume either the Catholic church at Zeitoun had the ability to fool millions or hired someone that did. How far-fetched is this? How far-fetched is calling it a miracle, when there is good evidence stating other possibilities? And shouldn't labeling something as 'miracle' only be reserved for those truly miraculous things like moving Mt. Everest? If you apply the label 'miracle' to things that can reasonably be logically viewed as scams, than you are abusing the word somewhat.

What is your best example of a miracle? Perhaps something of personal testimony?
 
People who haven't studied them at all can dismiss them out of hand without thinking about them, because they are sure to begin with that a miracle did not take place.
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People who haven't studied them at all include very religious faith-based people. Those people might begin that the miracle did take place. Same goes for me, as goes for you. As for studying there are two methods to use
1. sponge - soak up all information
2. panning for gold - critically analyzing the information

So you see it is not enough to be studious, it is necessary to be critical too.

Yet the reverse is also true, that some oddities are so extreme that they demand a religious interpretation
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I disagree. I never attributed the miracle property to something I didn't understand.
 
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