What makes you certain that you've chosen the correct faith?

[Rav]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*. In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation), as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

 

[Thoreau]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*. In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation), as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

I'm an Atheist but I'll play this game in my own little way...

It is my observation and thus opinion that most people of faith were raised in faith. If it were somehow possible that a child would not be exposed to religion at all until they reached adulthood, or at least close, that they would not convert to a religion if it were then taught to them. Granted there are obvious exceptions, hence "most". But overall, I believe religion would suffer a quick and painless death if people were not raised among the religious.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*. In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation), as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

There are different avenues one can take with this question. The Catechism presents the best summary of an answer.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

To gain a deeper understanding of the Church's teaching on this matter, Please read this section of the Catechism on the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.[/B]
So based on what is written above, the strictest answer to the OP question "What makes you certain that you've chosen the correct faith?" has to be no, it is not strictly "necessary" (that is in all cases) to salvation to have a "personal relationship with the Church that Christ founded including all the rites, rituals and hierarchy".

However, great care and caution must be taken in applying this teaching. It cannot be used as a "loophole" to remain outside the church once reasonably assured of the Church's validity.

As an analogy, we could ask if it is necessary to go to university in order to learn everything you need to know, everything that we could learn at university?
In the strictest sense - no.
However there are many things, tangible and intangible, that universities offer that make it far easier and better to go than to not go.

This is nowhere near a complete answer but.... :shrug:

 

[wynn]

However, great care and caution must be taken in applying this teaching. It cannot be used as a "loophole" to remain outside the church once reasonably assured of the Church's validity.

It is not clear how it is even theoretically possible to be reasonably sure of the validity of something, and yet not (aspire to) act accordingly.

Only an insane or evil entity might be capable of that; but that opens the question of the relevance of the issue in the first place.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

It is not clear how it is even theoretically possible to be reasonably sure of the validity of something, and yet not (aspire to) act accordingly.

Only an insane or evil entity might be capable of that; but that opens the question of the relevance of the issue in the first place.

To an extent I agree, especially in the way that we understand things today. However many ceturies ago, things like sin, absolution etc. were understood differently by many people and they would believe in the Church yet hold off being baptized until late in life, or even on their deathbed, for fear that they sin after baptism and not go to heaven.

In a more modern sense I've seen people, converts, on the Journey Home Program (EWTN - Monday nights 8:00 pm) speak of coming to the conviction that the Catholic Church was the correct Church and yet hold off joining for some reason or another, usually related to family or job concerns.

A friend of mine himself, after many years away from the Church, hesitated for some time applying for an annulment in order to return because, 1) he didn't want to dredge up a lot of junk for other people and 2) He didn't think he could reasonably and truthfully be granted an annulment.
When he finally screwed up the courage to apply the annulment was granted.

So perhaps this is something to be added to your list "insane or evil"...Lack of courage.

 

[Rav]

This is nowhere near a complete answer but.... :shrug:

If I'm understanding you correctly, then according to Catholic teachings, a follower of Islam or Judaism (for example) can achieve salvation as long as they have a genuine faith and a desire to do God's will to the best of their ability? But once exposed to the more comprehensively "correct" teachings of the Catholic Church, one can only achieve salvation by embracing them (which I am sure you would argue would be a natural thing for someone who had genuine faith in the first place)?

This is all very interesting, but not quite the point of the thread. Followers of Islam and Judaism (for example) would typically reject the authority of the Catholic church on such matters and continue to embrace their own beliefs instead. What makes you certain that you're doing the right thing, and they are not?

Trust me when I say that my intention here is not to take cheap shots at any answers your provide. I might ask further questions and present other arguments, but this really is designed to be an exploration rather than an inquisition.

 

[Adstar]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*.

Well there is a problem right down at the foundation of your question. You put the word "practices" in there. I guess anyone who had practices as needed parts of their salvation could never feel absolutely confident in obtaining eternity with God. See once you have things that you do to secure your own eternity your not really being saved by another are you. You are securing your own eternity. Someone else is not saving you. Therefore you cannot really use the word "salvation" in regard to these people.

In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation),as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

Because i am not reliant on my own performance but on the promise of a perfect God. In my belief it is Jesus who saves, i rely on His righteousness. His Honesty, His perfection. Not my own. Therefore if i believe Jesus i accept the Way they He says leads to being saved. That is by believing and trusting Jesus. Then I can be totally confident. Belief is an easy thing.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

Then it would be called rewardation or some such variant. The Word Salvation means that one is being saved from something.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

In a more modern sense I've seen people, converts, on the Journey Home Program (EWTN - Monday nights 8:00 pm) speak of coming to the conviction that the Catholic Church was the correct Church and yet hold off joining for some reason or another, usually related to family or job concerns.

Then they weren't really convinced after all.

In my own experience, and what I have heard and read from others, when it comes to choice of religion, people are sometimes subject to very unhealthy patterns.

For example, a good guilt trip can convince a person that they believe something - when in fact they don't.

 

[wynn]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

Signal is interested.

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*. In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation), as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

I think the question of certainty about having chosen the correct path is pertinent in only one instance: namely, when one has the fear that God is evil or when one is convinced that God is evil. This fear or conviction might not necessarily be clearly articulated, nor the person be aware of having them.

People act according to their conscience, and this is the best they can hope to do anyway. This, combined with the conviction that God is good, holds off uncertainty and lets the person go about their daily life with a considerable measure of peace and confidence.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

What makes you certain that you're doing the right thing, and they are not?

What makes you think I think that?

And I have to ask, what exactly is the definition of, "a genuine faith"?

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Rav,

The very short answer and this applies to ALL faith walks - is how closely those following it adhere to Love as the core source and goal of their faith and their actions.
This is the "touchstone" that gives hope that those in other faiths might be saved, and it is the core of our own faith as well.

Theologically speaking, and simply addressing the "teachings" of the two groups you mention (Jews and Islam) is the idea of the culmination we find in Christ and how Christ completely sources back to the critical core of Love.
The Jewish faith missed this at the time, and I guess still looks for a temporal messiah which I guess for them will be realized in the second coming...:shrug:
Islam strikes me as a reversion from the NT covenant based on Love and faith and a "Loving Father God", to more of an OT covenant "Law based, Judge God" concept.
So in neither of these do I see the growth toward a 'Love" relationship, a "unitive" relationship with God that I see in Christianity through Christ in His Church.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Then they weren't really convinced after all.

In my own experience, and what I have heard and read from others, when it comes to choice of religion, people are sometimes subject to very unhealthy patterns.

For example, a good guilt trip can convince a person that they believe something - when in fact they don't.

Well I believe that we should not try to read too much into other people's motivations and timing in these matters as they are highly personal in nature.

I note that you did not address my addition of "Courage" (or lack thereof) to the list of things that might stop a person from formally entering the church.

As to just what specific things bring people to conviction, these will vary with the indiviudal.

 

[Search & Destroy]

There is no way to turn back. Once you meditate, breath becomes skilled breath. Breathing as a skill can't be unlearned and is always in effect. Therefore once one starts to meditate, they develop a skill that can never go away and is constant effect. To breath is to meditate in essence. The attaching power is a strong reason why meditation for me is the ultimate salvation.

Beyond the inherent lifelong bond that keeps me forever glued to it, there are tangible benefits for support. With a feedback system such as chess.com's, one can get an objective view on whether a skill is useful. Focusing with meditation's aid achieves much higher ratings than if I had many things on the mind. There are other feedback systems I have used such as sports where the focus meditation can provide is on par with amphetamines.

There are other important things like emotional control that I have realized come as a direct result from meditating.

In any light, find me another belief system with such a five-star rating in immediate visible self-improvement and I will try. I'm not biased I just do what I know works.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I'm sure Signal will be interested in responses to this one

I am specifically aiming this question at those of you who believe that you are faithfully adhering to a specific set of beliefs and practices that will ensure your salvation*. In particular I'd like to know why you feel certain (or close to it) that the particular set of beliefs that you adhere to represent those which are necessary to achieve the desired outcome (salvation), as opposed to some other set of beliefs that may be inadequate and/or mutually exclusive.

*For the purposes of this discussion our definition of salvation need not be restricted to the avoidance of eternal damnation, but can be expanded to include any kind of spiritual reward or achievement.

You should turn salvation into slavation Bro . You know I think I was a Little hard on you when we first met. I wanted to tell you that you are a good solider my man .
O.K. my take : Most of you are Christians even you atheist. You can't open your mouth and talk in English with out being a Christian. Your thoughts actions , intentions, moralities are embedded Archetypes from the thieving scoundrel,Vampire, blood drinking. Cannibal eating Jesus. Fraggle think about this bro . Language and the letters that represent are archetypes. Question for you if you read this ? If they are past down from generation to generation is there a lag time in morphage as as different circles of influence brake open new silos of information . The answer is yes if you are still thinking . So all information silos are like that . Trickle down economics of information. I lost my point . Religious thought and the changes from industrial to modernism is in many stages of evolution . Each culture is at its own stage of development. It has been strange to Me how something lake agriculture sprang up world wide at about the same time , or better yet child sacrifice was going on in a large percentage world wide at approximately the same time in history . I know the debate goes on " Did it start in Africa and we are using the same basic rudiments of archetypes , or It developed independently in separate cultures as evolution unravels . I tend to think both are true, because of bottle necking in human populations . So imagine WE get bottle neck and archetype coverage, now we get new growth of human population and they migrate to new separate communities all having the same archetypes embedded and being in a sense all created equal develop at similar rates of change .

 

[Rav]

Well there is a problem right down at the foundation of your question. You put the word "practices" in there.

I've seen you make this point before, but there is really no incompatibility if you understand that even though you can't "earn" salvation, there are typically practices that flow from having accepted it (such as prayer, continued repentance, evangelism etc). Such "practices" are important to many people so it seemed natural to include the word.

Then it would be called rewardation or some such variant. The Word Salvation means that one is being saved from something.

I know what it typically means, but not every religious person in this forum is of an Abrahamic faith. I had others in mind when I decided to expand the definition of the word so as not to exclude them. Some may see rising to a higher plane of existence as a salvation of sorts, for example. If I get more complaints about this literary blasphemy I shall do something about it, but for now I trust that the intent is clear.

Because i am not reliant on my own performance but on the promise of a perfect God. In my belief it is Jesus who saves, i rely on His righteousness. His Honesty, His perfection. Not my own. Therefore if i believe Jesus i accept the Way they He says leads to being saved. That is by believing and trusting Jesus. Then I can be totally confident. Belief is an easy thing.

You seem to be saying that the most important thing of all is proper submission to God's righteousness and power. Does it matter to one's salvation then if they believe that Jesus died for their sins (or not), as long as they adopt this attitude towards God? If not, fair enough. If so, how have you become certain that it matters?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

There is no way to turn back. Once you meditate, breath becomes skilled breath. Breathing as a skill can't be unlearned and is always in effect. Therefore once one starts to meditate, they develop a skill that can never go away and is constant effect. To breath is to meditate in essence. The attaching power is a strong reason why meditation for me is the ultimate salvation.

Beyond the inherent lifelong bond that keeps me forever glued to it, there are tangible benefits for support. With a feedback system such as chess.com's, one can get an objective view on whether a skill is useful. Focusing with meditation's aid achieves much higher ratings than if I had many things on the mind. There are other feedback systems I have used such as sports where the focus meditation can provide is on par with amphetamines.

There are other important things like emotional control that I have realized come as a direct result from meditating.

In any light, find me another belief system with such a five-star rating in immediate visible self-improvement and I will try. I'm not biased I just do what I know works.

Great , join the human race of Super men . Good soldiers of love are hard to come by . Autistic kids can have trouble knowing when to breath . SID babies too . Natural responses to bombardments against there natural human baby archetypes ? I Don't know ? I think some people are afraid to breath . They don't feel worthy to live so they have problems taking there share of life giving air. Part of My theories on anal retention in modern societies . Don't Bust Me for using Theory wrong DW

 

[Rav]

And I have to ask, what exactly is the definition of, "a genuine faith"?

Genuine faith is just that; genuine. Someone who only practices their religion outwardly, but does not truly embrace it in their hearts, is not a person of genuine faith, for example.

The Jewish faith missed this at the time, and I guess still looks for a temporal messiah which I guess for them will be realized in the second coming...
Islam strikes me as a reversion from the NT covenant based on Love and faith and a "Loving Father God", to more of an OT covenant "Law based, Judge God" concept.
So in neither of these do I see the growth toward a 'Love" relationship, a "unitive" relationship with God that I see in Christianity through Christ in His Church.

Are you saying then that it is less likely for a person to be "right" with God if they have not embraced the new testament teachings of Jesus, or if they instead embrace a doctrine that may recognize that it has some authority, but has been superseded by more recent prophecy? Of course you have already indicated that exceptions can be made for people of any religion who genuinely seek God, which seems fair.

 

[Rhaedas]

So far it seems the common answer is that you believe your faith is the right one because you believe it is. Only MX3Boy hit on a reasoning outside simple belief, that a person will tend to gravitate towards what religion they were exposed to in childhood.

Maybe more of a focus should be the question...WHY did you choose your current belief? Did you ever have a choice, or have you always assumed what you believe is right?

This is a usually simple answer for atheists, but the answer for theists would zero in on what this topic is all about.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

So far it seems the common answer is that you believe your faith is the right one because you believe it is. Only MX3Boy hit on a reasoning outside simple belief, that a person will tend to gravitate towards what religion they were exposed to in childhood.

Maybe more of a focus should be the question...WHY did you choose your current belief? Did you ever have a choice, or have you always assumed what you believe is right?

This is a usually simple answer for atheists, but the answer for theists would zero in on what this topic is all about.

That is easy ! By there circles of influence in there daily lives . The things they gravitate towards by natural selection and if you ask Me there name plays a significant roll in the form of involuntary actions based on the ego of a person to seek out familiarity. The laziness of a person to stick with what is comfortable plays a big roll too. Peer pressure also

 

[wynn]

Well I believe that we should not try to read too much into other people's motivations and timing in these matters as they are highly personal in nature.

I note that you did not address my addition of "Courage" (or lack thereof) to the list of things that might stop a person from formally entering the church.

As to just what specific things bring people to conviction, these will vary with the indiviudal.

I believe that if a person is truly convinced of something, they will act accordingly. If they aren't convinced, they won't act accordingly.

This is not to say that everyone who acts a certain way has the according convictions.
Just that when the issue is about declaring convictions, then actions are the measure of them.