What makes a holy text holy?

I think that the question of holiness can be answered quite simply:

"Holiness" of certain texts and phenomena is connected to taboos and survival strategies.

I like to see things in a long-time perspective, as so it is easier to understand why things today are they way they are.

Some texts and phenomena are older than other, and some were written/practised by societies more viable than other, and therefore tradition becomes the justification for the existence of a certain expression of holiness.

Like it or not, tradition IS a justification for something: it may be without logical proof, but fact is that people adhere to tradition, and so tradition must be accepted as a justification for something IN PRACTICE.

But think what is actually the reason for tradition being so important: Tradition (to some people) gives a sense of identity, it tells you where you come from, who you are, what you can expect from life. It gives you CONTEXT.

And we all need some context to feel as a worthy individual and be able to live a life.

It is the ancient tribal feeling of belonging to a community.
As soon as we speak of tribal feelings and communities, we must keep in mind that mechanisms must be ensured to keep a community going, to ensure its stability. Therefore, the most important things (the ruler and his rights and duties; procreation; resources) must be tabooed, so that nobody questions them, or gets (severely) punished for tresspassing. It is about social stability.

Believing the same thing kept a society together and alive, and more or less thriving. And the thing that is keeping them together is not to be questioned, lest their own survival would become endangered.

In this sense, "holy" and "tabooed" mean the same thing: untouchable truth.
Of course, in the ancient times, when most religions were established, the struggle for life was more visceral, more direct, more obvious -- in the sense of facing imminent death if you didn't have enough food. Look at life expectancy rates, infant death, death due diseases and such things in those times.
Today, we have many postponement mechanisms, like social welfare that help you to get through the hard times. Back then, it must had been much harder. No wonder that economical lacks had to be met with a lot of faith (faith is believing in things that are not there (yet)).
And you shouldn't doubt that what keeps you alive!

I'd like to see a logical argument as to the basis for personally allowing any text to be considered holy. (meaning that sure other people may call it holy, but if you do, why)
Some texts have the value of being holy, probably in the greatest extent due to the reasons sketched above.

If I go and write something, I might call it "holy" -- but the thing will lack social acceptance, and as such it won't pass as "holy" for others. Since I don't live alone and need a (social) context, that thing won't pass as "holy" for me either. Unless I am totally fanatical, of course.

I think that the reason why some newer writings are considered holy (for example what the Apostles in the modern Mormon church say) is because their author has a certain connection to the tradition. Never forget that Rome wasn't bulit in one day, so it takes a lot of little steps to convince people that what a modern apostle says comes from God too.
***

But on the whole, I think we have something like a need for "holiness", a need for "purity" and "innocence", "beauty", and "ultimate truth"; maybe to compensate the force of our reason. (And this "holiness" doesn't necessarily have something to do with the kind of holiness/taboo mentioned above.)
This need can then be expressed and elaborated in VERY different ways: some people belong to an organized religion, some are fully dedicated to their work, some hug trees, some worship their dead pet, or they worship their lover (and put him/her in a golden cage), ...

Also, it has been established that a part of the brain is in charge for religious feelings, whatever these religious feelings may be. When a Buddhist monk meditates, the same region of his brain is active as in a Franciscan nun praying. The common denominator seems to be a feeling of "happiness". But there's more to it ...
 
"Holy" in the Biblical sense means "separated for God". Therefore something that wasn't holy before can become holy, and something that used to be holy can become defiled. It's an attributive term.

RosaMagika said:
But on the whole, I think we have something like a need for "holiness", a need for "purity" and "innocence", "beauty", and "ultimate truth"; maybe to compensate the force of our reason.
I would say it's rather our reason compensating for circumstances, since reality seems incomplete, insifficient - meaningless - without such an adjustment. It's reasonable to admire beauty and honesty, but it might not be realistic in the way reality presents itself: as blind, uncompromising and cruel. We instinctlively see the oposite of these things as deficiencies, and rightly so, because they have harsh and detrimental consequences for our lives. The lack of beauty, innocence, purity and holiness, threaten our humanity, even though they seem otherwise redundant. But until we recognize why, they will always seem too nebulous and superfluous to take seriously. Morality will be just an ideal, not something we need desparately. It's the other leg we need to stand on, without it we will never regain our balance, and another leg by definition needs to be separate. But as long as nature rules, we will be slaves to it, and trying to balance ourselves on one leg.

Of all these things, holiness is probably the most telling: it suggests that things aren't kept intact, whole. We try to compensate with spirituality, but even that never remains holy, because it is too dependent on us. Humanity is constantly trying to redeem itself, to fix itself, to become "whole" by substituting one thing for another. We live from addiction to addiction, anything not to recognize that our initial impulse was right: we need God, and we need Him to restore us and provide for us and love us. We can't imagine anything more separate from us - more holy than God.
 
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Raithere said:
Flores, I would take this single chapter over the entire Quran:

"Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real;
Cultivate harmony within your family, and harmony becomes fertile;
Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
Cultivate harmony within your culture, and harmony becomes enduring;
Cultivate harmony within the world, and harmony becomes ubiquitous.

Live with a person to understand that person;
Live with a family to understand that family;
Live with a community to understand that community;
Live with a culture to understand that culture;
Live with the world to understand the world.

Nice, but that's something that my dad would tell me and I would forget a minute later because it's empty world that can't stand alone. How am I to cultivate harmony while I have no knowledge or control over the concept of harmony???? How am I to be expected to understand a culture by JUST mere living in it???? What kind of life is the author prescibing? Saddam and Hitler lived in their culture, do you think they really understood their people? Nothing new here, and it's rather redundant than concise, and rather empty than informative. Raithere, Socrates summed up the entire philosophy above when he said..." he who will fight for the right, if he would live even for a brief space, must have a private station and not a public one." Even Socrates words while much better than what you bring is still one step away from holistic, because Socrates failed to mention that the contingency of fighting for the right is the existance of right.

http://socrates.clarke.edu/aplg0107.htm
Some one may wonder why I go about in private giving Jowett's Notes

advice and busying myself with the concerns of others, but do The internal sign always forbade him to engage in politics; and if he had done so, he would have perished long ago.
not venture to come forward in public and advise the state. I
will tell you why. You have heard me speak at sundry times
31d
and in divers places of an oracle or sign which comes to me,
and is the divinity which Meletus ridicules in the indictment.
This sign, which is a kind of voice, first began to come to me
when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me
to do anything which I am going to do. This is what deters me
from being a politician. And rightly, as I think. For I am or
certain, O men of Athens, that if I had engaged in politics, I
should have perished long ago, and done no good either to you
31e
to myself. And do not be offended at my telling you the truth:
for the truth is, that no man who goes to war with you or any
other multitude, honestly striving against the many lawless and
unrighteous deeds which are done in a state, will save his life;
32a
he who will fight for the right, if he would live even for a brief
space, must have a private station and not a public one.


Raithere, the verses you bring are empty? How are we to cultivate harmony while we don't know what harmony is? Why are we to cultivate harmony while our life ends so uprubtly by death. Empty verses and quite frankly hypocritical verses, and while pretty, accomplish nothing at all. The Quran is much more profound.

The very first Revealed verses of the Holy Quran proclaim in an unambiguous manner that the acquisition of knowledge is the most fundamental pre-requisite for survival and development of existence (Wajud) in all its pervasive sense. Says the Holy Quran: "He (Allah the Almighty) taught (man) the use of the Pen (the basic implement in the field of knowledge) and taught man which he knew not (a divine invitation for research and advancement of knowledge so as to lead the life in conformity and obedience to Divine Pleasure)." (Surah Alaq: Verses 4-5)

[96.1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
[96.2] He created man from a clot.
[96.3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,
[96.4] Who taught (to write) with the pen
[96.5] Taught man what he knew not.
[96.6] Nay! man is most surely inordinate,
[96.7] Because he sees himself free from want.
[96.8] Surely to your Lord is the return.
[96.9] Have you seen him who forbids
[96.10] A servant when he prays?
[96.11] Have you considered if he were on the right way,
[96.12] Or enjoined guarding (against evil)?
[96.13] Have you considered if he gives the lie to the truth and turns (his) back?
[96.14] Does he not know that Allah does see?
[96.15] Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead,
[96.16] A lying, sinful forehead.
[96.17] Then let him summon his council,
[96.18] We too would.summon the braves of the army.
[96.19] Nay! obey him not, and make obeisance and draw nigh (to Allah).


Now, the verses above talk about man's origin, a clot, talks about harvesting knowledge, talks about how we gain knowledge from total ignorance, yet how fast we forget that we didn't used to know that stuff. It talks about how man by nature is inordinate. But surely our return is to our creator, this is the grounding force. I really can't even compare your poor general unfounded ungrounded verses with one tiny Surah of the Quran. What you bring is a speckle compared to the holistic components of the Quran.
 
Flores said:
Nice, but that's something that my dad would tell me and I would forget a minute later because it's empty world that can't stand alone.

Raithere makes more sense to me than this pathetic surah:
  • Quran Sura 91: The Sun :m:

    1. By the sun and its brightness.

    2. The moon that follows it. (WTF? moon follows the sun? ridiculous!)

    3. The day that reveals.

    4. The night that covers.

    5. The sky and Him who built it.

    6. The earth and Him who sustains it.

    7. The soul and Him who created it.

    8. Then showed it what is evil and what is good.

    9. Successful is one who redeems it.

    10. Failing is one who neglects it.

    11. Thamud's disbelief caused them to transgress.

    12. They followed the worst among them.

    13. GOD's messenger said to them,
    "This is GOD's camel; let her drink." (WTF?)

    14. They disbelieved him and slaughered her.
    Their Lord then requited them for their sin and annihilated them.
    (WTF?)

    15. Yet, those who came after them remain heedless.
 
DoctorNO said:
Raithere makes more sense to me than this pathetic surah:

1. By the sun and its brightness.

2. The moon that follows it. (WTF? moon follows the sun? ridiculous!)

The arabic word that was translated as follow, really means dependant or subservient. We all know that the moon rotate around the sun and thus is dependant on the location of the sun within the solar system, so in actuallity and due to gravitational pull, the moon is following the sun wherever it goes. Of course you know that the sun is also travelling in a larger orbit and the earth and moon are following it? Don't you know such basic astronomy?

DoctorNO said:
7. The soul and Him who created it.
8. Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
9. Successful is one who redeems it.
10. Failing is one who neglects it.

Look how profound are the verses above....We are told that we possess a created soul. The soul shows us what is good and what is evil...We know what we are doing? Yet some of us intentionally choose the wrong despite the fact that they know they are doing wrong....Those who choose to go againest their good nature are neglecting their souls and are failing. Those who redeem their originally good natured souls are successfull. How much more purpose can you squeeze in four short lines.
 
Flores said:
The arabic word that was translated as follow, really means dependant or subservient. We all know that the moon rotate around the sun and thus is dependant on the location of the sun within the solar system, so in actuallity and due to gravitational pull, the moon is following the sun wherever it goes. Of course you know that the sun is also travelling in a larger orbit and the earth and moon are following it? Don't you know such basic astronomy?
The moon orbits around the earth. It is the earth that it is following, not the sun. Even if the earth gets knocked out of orbit the moon will follow it to wherever part of space it goes.


Flores said:
Look how profound are the verses above....We are told that we possess a created soul. The soul shows us what is good and what is evil...We know what we are doing? Yet some of us intentionally choose the wrong despite the fact that they know they are doing wrong....Those who choose to go againest their good nature are neglecting their souls and are failing. Those who redeem their originally good natured souls are successfull. How much more purpose can you squeeze in four short lines.

I was referring to the silliness of somebody saying “this is god’s camel; let her drink”. And then just expect the audience to believe him. Who would believe such? And for disbelief and for killing the camel the crowd got annihilated? Ridiculous isn’t it?
 
DoctorNO said:
The moon orbits around the earth. It is the earth that it is following, not the sun. Even if the earth gets knocked out of orbit the moon will follow it to wherever part of space it goes.

And the earth orbit around the sun and sun is not stationary, so the moon is orbiting around the earth that is orbiting around the sun and following the sun in it's course, and eventually both earth and moon are following the sun in it's course....Do you want me to draw you a picture???The Quran is amazingly accurate considering that at the time the Quran came, no information regarding orbiting and courses were known....What's your problem? You are just too damn determined to argue regardless. The moon follows the sun is accurate in the grand scheme of things....


DoctorNO said:
I was referring to the silliness of somebody saying “this is god’s camel; let her drink”. And then just expect the audience to believe him. Who would believe such? And for disbelief and for killing the camel the crowd got annihilated? Ridiculous isn’t it?

What's wrong with saying it's god's camel. Everything belongs to the creator even animals. The creator have the right to defend all his creations and to annihilate me and you for abusing a tiny ant....Sue the creator if you want.
 
Flores said:
And the earth orbit around the sun and sun is not stationary, so the moon is orbiting around the earth that is orbiting around the sun and following the sun in it's course, and eventually both earth and moon are following the sun in it's course....Do you want me to draw you a picture???
The moon's loyalty is to the earth, not the sun. The moon is held by the earth, not the sun. So even if the earth knocks out of orbit the moon would still follow the earth, not the sun.

Flores said:
The Quran is amazingly accurate considering that at the time the Quran came, no information regarding orbiting and courses were known....What's your problem? You are just too damn determined to argue regardless. The moon follows the sun is accurate in the grand scheme of things....
Flores flores flores, any caveman could see with their bare eyes that the moon comes after the sun. As if following it. Nothing amazing with that. Please think more carefully.


ill be back.
 
Flores said:
What's wrong with saying it's god's camel. Everything belongs to the creator even animals. The creator have the right to defend all his creations and to annihilate me and you for abusing a tiny ant....Sue the creator if you want.

Saying so implies God’s direct link to that camel thus making that camel more special than your average camel. Which may also imply that the camel possesses some qualities of god like immortality. And apparently the crowd thought so and decided to test those qualities by putting the animal to the sword. For you see logic demands that extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences. No person in their right mind would just take an empty word.

The surah does not say how the tribe got annihilated but by claiming it to be God’s work for the sole reason of killing an animal implies that that version of “God” was a sadistic, hateful, prideful, senseless and evil god.

And the rest of the verses aren’t even original. Anybody could say those things.

That surah is truly pathetic.
 
[FONT=Arial Black said:
DoctorNO[/FONT]]The moon's loyalty is to the earth, not the sun. The moon is held by the earth, not the sun. So even if the earth knocks out of orbit the moon would still follow the earth, not the sun.
[FONT=Arial Black said:
Are you crazy? Are you saying that moon motion is unaffected by the sun? No relationship between the moon and the sun? You are in dire need of reading. How about the 56 year sun-moon cycle for a start.
http://www.davidmcminn.com/pages/smnum56.htm
 
Just put it this way. The moon follows the earth directly. The moon follows the sun indirectly. Do you agree?
 
Flores,

You asked
How are we to cultivate harmony while we don't know what harmony is?
I'm an outside observer, not belonging to any organized religion. I think that you are doing the exact same thing as Raithere.

Raithere said:
Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real;
Cultivate harmony within your family, and harmony becomes fertile;
Cultivate harmony within your community, and harmony becomes abundant;
Cultivate harmony within your culture, and harmony becomes enduring;
Cultivate harmony within the world, and harmony becomes ubiquitous.
...
And you said:
7. The soul and Him who created it.
8. Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
9. Successful is one who redeems it.
10. Failing is one who neglects it. ”
Look how profound are the verses above....We are told that we possess a created soul. The soul shows us what is good and what is evil...We know what we are doing? Yet some of us intentionally choose the wrong despite the fact that they know they are doing wrong....Those who choose to go againest their good nature are neglecting their souls and are failing. Those who redeem their originally good natured souls are successfull. How much more purpose can you squeeze in four short lines.

To me, these are just two different ways of saying one and the same thing. The difference is just superficial.
"Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real ..." -- how can this be done?
By "The soul shows us what is good and what is evil" and "Those who choose to go againest their good nature are neglecting their souls and are failing. Those who redeem their originally good natured souls are successfull."
 
Here is another truly amazing, truly beautiful and truly inspirational surah. Much better than that pathetic surah 91 of the quran...

  • Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me.
    I once was lost, but now am found,
    Was blind, but now I see.

    'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
    And grace my fears relieved.
    How precious did that grace appear
    The hour I first believed.

    Through many dangers, toils and snares
    I have already come;
    'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
    And grace will lead me home.

    The Lord has promised good to me
    His word my hope secures;
    He will my shield and portion be,
    As long as life endures.

    Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
    and mortal life shall cease,
    I shall possess within the veil,
    A life of joy and peace.

    When we've been there ten thousand years
    Bright shining as the sun,
    We've no less days to sing God's praise
    Than when we've first begun.


    John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)

That surah truly made people cry.
 
Jenyar,

I would say it's rather our reason compensating for circumstances, since reality seems incomplete, insifficient - meaningless - without such an adjustment. ...
I think I understand where you are coming from.
But I still think that we are in a way defiled by the powers of our reason, and this defilment we need to compensate by seeing beauty, purity, innocence etc. around us, in order to gain some balance in our life.

However, it is our reason that makes us human, and to be human means to bear this defilement and to make compensations for it.
I don't remember the exact verse, but the Bible says that with knowledge there comes an impurity, a lost of innocence.
Look where our reason and its achievements have brought us: the planet is irrepairably damaged.

It's reasonable to admire beauty and honesty, but it might not be realistic in the way reality presents itself: as blind, uncompromising and cruel.
Yes, so the world may seem to human reason. I don't think reality "presents itself" -- we see it in a certain way. Human reason wishes to make everything according to itself. Warm houses, clean loundry, vaccines against every disease. And it often works, but finally, it will fail.

We instinctlively see the oposite of these things as deficiencies, and rightly so, because they have harsh and detrimental consequences for our lives. The lack of beauty, innocence, purity and holiness, threaten our humanity, even though they seem otherwise redundant. But until we recognize why, they will always seem too nebulous and superfluous to take seriously.
So true. "Some fresh flowers, some nice music -- to *spice up* your life."


Humanity is constantly trying to redeem itself, to fix itself, to become "whole" by substituting one thing for another.
Yes, and the sum of x elements is never as much as the whole.

We live from addiction to addiction, anything not to recognize that our initial impulse was right: we need God, and we need Him to restore us and provide for us and love us. We can't imagine anything more separate from us - more holy than God.
Well said, I agree. And the further we are from God, the more we need him, don't you think so too? The more harm humans do, the more they need someone to forgive them, while at the same time, since being so far away from him, it becomes less and less possible to believe in him (whatever this god may be like). And the lesser the belief, the more harm gets done. The lesser the belief, the lesser the morality, the harm can be done, and gets done.

I remember some lines from Faithless and Dido's "One step too far":
You can walk too far but still you won't be found
You can look down on the world but still you won't find love

Maybe what people are doing is going further and further -- to see if God would intervene, not just that: we go further to *make* him intervene! But he doesn't.

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I think that it is because of our reason and the defilement it brings upon us (and everything else) that we need God.
 
DoctorNO said:
The surah does not say how the tribe got annihilated but by claiming it to be God’s work for the sole reason of killing an animal


Obviosuly you can't read, or your eyes are only searching for trouble.

13. GOD's messenger said to them,
"This is GOD's camel; let her drink."
14. They disbelieved him and slaughered her.
Their Lord then requited them for their sin and annihilated them.

You tell me, for what exact reason did these people slaughter a camel that don't even belong to them if it wasn't out of vengence and direct temptation of god??. Even when they were told that this camel belong to god...Obviosuly they were out to proof that god is irrelevant by mocking and disbelieving, but god took care of them in a just way....Just like they slaughtered and took another life out of mockery and vengence, their own gift of life was treated similarly.

Put yourself in their shoes for a second. Jesus taking a walk with his camel, he stops to drink, you harrass Jesus and the camel without any reason, and prohibit them from using their well, you do that out of the sole motive of being the annoying hatefull person that you are, Jesus tells you, stop it, this is god's camel, don't trangress, that makes you even more angry that you decide to slaughter the animal, only to show Jesus that he is hoax and god's words don't mean shit to you, god send lightening to reckon you....What's wrong with that? It's ultimate justice. You will die any way because you are human, and as an agnostic you believe that death is the end and nothing happen after death, so in that case, you shouldn't put too much value to your life, because it ends in nothing, so it must be nothing to start with.
 
DoctorNO said:
Here is another truly amazing, truly beautiful and truly inspirational surah. Much better than that pathetic surah 91 of the quran...

  • Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
    That saved a wretch like me.
    I once was lost, but now am found,
    Was blind, but now I see.

    'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
    And grace my fears relieved.
    How precious did that grace appear
    The hour I first believed.

    Through many dangers, toils and snares
    I have already come;
    'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
    And grace will lead me home.

    The Lord has promised good to me
    His word my hope secures;
    He will my shield and portion be,
    As long as life endures.

    Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
    and mortal life shall cease,
    I shall possess within the veil,
    A life of joy and peace.

    When we've been there ten thousand years
    Bright shining as the sun,
    We've no less days to sing God's praise
    Than when we've first begun.


    John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)

That surah truly made people cry.

Funny, you can't bring other material to brag about...you choose a praise of god song, which tells me that you must know that god is the only entity worthy of praise.

I love that song as well, my 4-year old daughter plays it on the piano and sing it. The reason this song is beautifull is because it is about the creator god....and it sing's in sincerity god's grace...It was written about god for the people and that makes it beautifull. While beautifull it's not equal to the Quran, It's not enough nor complete, grace is not the only characteristic of god, it's one of many, and the Quran contains all the names and characteristics of god, including grace...Check them out.

I'm having trouble with internet, go to pearls of wisdom, click life basic questions, scroll down to god's 99 names and their reference in Quran.
 
Flores said:
Funny, you can't bring other material to brag about...you choose a praise of god song, which tells me that you must know that god is the only entity worthy of praise.
I thought part of the challenge requires a material that is religious in nature. The point there is that that song was CONCOCTED by a plain non-prophet human being.

Flores said:
While beautifull it's not equal to the Quran, It's not enough nor complete, grace is not the only characteristic of god, it's one of many, and the Quran contains all the names and characteristics of god, including grace...Check them out.
My friend the quran's minimum requirement for it's challenging was a surah, not a whole quran.

And for that mistake I'll take the best surahs I could find and match it against the worst surahs in the quran. :D

The Amazing Grace vs Quran Surah 91: The Sun
 
RosaMagika said:
To me, these are just two different ways of saying one and the same thing. The difference is just superficial.
"Cultivate harmony within yourself, and harmony becomes real ..." -- how can this be done?
By "The soul shows us what is good and what is evil" and "Those who choose to go againest their good nature are neglecting their souls and are failing. Those who redeem their originally good natured souls are successfull."

I agree with you, but you can't ask people to redeem themselves or cultivate harmony within themselves without specifying the reason? What is the motivation to cultivate harmony or act within the limit's of one's good nature, if it all ends up in ubrupt non-harmonic death?
 
Flores said:
Obviosuly you can't read, or your eyes are only searching for trouble.

13. GOD's messenger said to them,
"This is GOD's camel; let her drink."
14. They disbelieved him and slaughered her.
Their Lord then requited them for their sin and annihilated them.

You tell me, for what exact reason did these people slaughter a camel that don't even belong to them if it wasn't out of vengence and direct temptation of god??.
My mistake. For their sin of disbelieving him (about that camel being god's camel) and for killing the camel.

Same thing. Cruel annihilation for something so small, so baseless and so senseless.

Flores said:
Just like they slaughtered and took another life out of mockery and vengence, their own gift of life was treated similarly.
It was just an animal's life. Everybody slaughter animals for food, for sport and for other benefits.

Flores said:
Put yourself in their shoes for a second. Jesus taking a walk with his camel, he stops to drink, you harrass Jesus and the camel without any reason, and prohibit them from using their well, you do that out of the sole motive of being the annoying hatefull person that you are, Jesus tells you, stop it, this is god's camel, don't trangress, that makes you even more angry that you decide to slaughter the animal, only to show Jesus that he is hoax and god's words don't mean shit to you, god send lightening to reckon you....What's wrong with that? It's ultimate justice. You will die any way because you are human, and as an agnostic you believe that death is the end and nothing happen after death, so in that case, you shouldn't put too much value to your life, because it ends in nothing, so it must be nothing to start with.
But that was Jesus. The guy who turns stone to bread. The guy who resurrects the dead. The guy who commands the weather. The guy feeds people out of nothing. My friend the legendary Jesus was something else. His words was supposed to be backed up by miracles and wonders. Anybody who heard or witnessed those phenomenon and still harrasses the worker of wonders was truly making a BIIIIIG mistake! Mohammed on the other hand was nothing but hot air. Why should anyone take him seriously? :m:
 
wesmorris,

To me, calling any text "holy" is traditionalism taken to the extreme. I suppose any number of adjectives can be validly pertinent to a text, but the term "holy" seems to entail a particular connotation that seems particularly unwise to me.

It's quite simple. When "holy" is attributed to something, it means that God is essentially involved. A holy text is words which are from God, either directly or indirectly. If it has been distorted in anyway it loses its potency and becomes defiled or unholy.

IMO, traditionalism is no excuse to elevate a text to such status as traditionalism alone is not an explanation. What other explanation is there?

That tradition is an excuse to call something holy, is entirely an independant assesment.

I'd like to see a logical argument as to the basis for personally allowing any text to be considered holy. (meaning that sure other people may call it holy, but if you do, why)

That is trickery.
By adding "logical" to your request, you have (intentionally) killed the flow before it has even begun.
Logic is a work in progress, it is limited by our understanding of all answers to the mystery of life. In fact the ultimate aim of logic is that we are not capable of understand the meaning of life through logic, because it can never come to an absolute conclusion. Which is what we are searching for.
When we see Michael Air Jordan make those beautiful slam-dunk points, where he appears to linger in the air. To try and logically explain it, would decrease it's perfection. The logical conclusion would be poor by comparison to the actual moment. Therefore, those who would foolishly accept its meaning in logical terms only, would miss out on the beautiful experience. Spirituality is an on-going, ultimate experience. Which can only be experianced from someone who is "experianceing" it. This experience is "holy."

In order to progress in discussions of spiritual and religious matters, we have to accept that there are things we do not understand, or things we are unaware of.

Jan Ardena.
 
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