what is YOUR meaning of life???

[Dr Lou Natic]

Pete,

I consider "me" to be part of that body and thus owned by earth. Earth wants me for the foodchain for some reason, perhaps I can help steer it in wise directions, who knows. Whatever the case, according to drlounatarianism, observing nature can tell us how to live and die, I wouldn't be much of a cult leader if I didn't watch closely now would I?
I have been, things get eaten, so I will get eaten, and be fucked if I could be bothered trying to hide my corpse in a casket, the ultimate act of cowardice and futility.

I changed my mind, you guys can knock the meaning of my life if you want. It might be interesting, I can't wait for the wes-attack (similar to the shaq-attack, only somehow even more "in your face"! )

 

[Flores]

My opposite poles idea on death.

Originally posted by Cris
Lucy,

The aging process is a disease to be cured like any other. Sounds like you quite understandably do not want to experience the debilitating diseases associated with aging.

Funny you discuss aging as a diseace without understanding the meaning and reasons for aging within the context of our lives and this planet life.

When I used to be an Atheist, I thought similarly to you, then one day, my grandma was showing me pictures of her when she was young, she stood straight up, she was beautifull, she could conquer the world, she could get any man she want. My grandma had a PhD in 1940's in an age when the most establishsed woman was cooking. Then I saw my grandma in the nintees with an arched back, weak body, unable to do what she used to do, and that within itself made me believe in god.

I view it that way, God is subtely reminding us of our purpose and our meaning through our life and the aging process. Cris, if you don't want to bow to your creator and your purpose because you're still strong and straight and proud, then god will make you bow down in old age and will humble you greatly to think about the real purpose of your life and to submit to your god. For death mark submission whether you like it or not.

Cris, if you ever have gotton caught in an ocean circuling current, you would understand that the only way to get out safely of the circle is to follow the current and swim outward. Swimming aginst the current helps pull you down and drown you while it may appear to save you. Working againest death is not the answer to your problem, it's working with death and understanding it as part of your life is the key to get you out of this bad current.

 

[the sage]

Originally posted by Cris

How do you know it will become a myth? Anti-aging research is growing at a very rapid rate with many researchers predicting that unlimited lifespans should be become a reality in the near term. Current experiments on animals show extended lifespans of double and triple.

cris could you link me up to some research on this? i'd love to read about it

 

[Cris]

Flores,

Funny you discuss aging as a diseace without understanding the meaning and reasons for aging within the context of our lives and this planet life.

What you attribute to the meaning of death is no more than an acceptance and a rationalization that death is welcome and desirable. Effectively you have been brainwashed into believing death is good.

When I used to be an Atheist, I thought similarly to you,

No, you have yet to show me that you have grasped the essentials of my reasoning. You do not think like me, and if you ever had then you could never have become a theist.

then one day, my grandma was showing me pictures of her when she was young, she stood straight up, she was beautifull, she could conquer the world, she could get any man she want. My grandma had a PhD in 1940's in an age when the most establishsed woman was cooking. Then I saw my grandma in the nintees with an arched back, weak body, unable to do what she used to do, and that within itself made me believe in god.

My mother is now 87 and has also led a very active life and was also very attractive when she was young, actually she still doesn’t look her age. But aging is taking its toll and she is becoming increasingly frail and now has greater difficulty recovering from simple illnesses.

Unlike you I find this development to be incredibly sad knowing that the outlook is a further decline and eventual death. While I am sure that science will continue to increase our health and lifespans for the future I am also reminded that if more people had not been so brainwashed by religion and had spent more time and energy looking for real solutions to aging and death then the outlook for all of us would now be much better.

It is this fatalistic attitude that is taught by religion, i.e. death is good and to be welcomed, that I find makes the concept of religion to be probably the greatest evil man has ever created. Anything that brainwashes people into believing that the ultimate bad is the ultimate good has to be the most perverse and idiotic idea possible.

I view it that way, God is subtely reminding us of our purpose and our meaning through our life and the aging process.

God is still a fantasy, but believing that death is good and welcome is sheer stupidity.

Cris, if you don't want to bow to your creator and your purpose because you're still strong and straight and proud,

I see no point in bowing down to something that doesn’t exist.

But again you demonstrate that you do not know me. It is specifically that I can see a dismal future for myself as I age and decline into painful debilitating age related diseases, that convinces me of the evil nature of religion. I don’t know if you have experienced the death process yet, but you don’t appear to reflect the true unattractiveness of death. My brother died of polio in the 1950s and that left a massive impact on my parents. My sister died of cancer in 1996 and I watched her painful dieing moments and her death. I also watched my father die in terrible pain in 2000.

Aging and death are very ugly and are human conditions that should be attacked with everything we can possibly muster.

then god will make you bow down in old age and will humble you greatly to think about the real purpose of your life and to submit to your god.

Your brainwashed acceptance of death is frighteningly sickening and strengthens my resolve to continue to help towards the eventual demise of religion in every way I can.

For death mark submission whether you like it or not.

With the current state of science and technology and for the first time in human history it is no longer certain that death is an inevitability for all of us.

Working against death is not the answer to your problem, it's working with death and understanding it as part of your life is the key to get you out of this bad current.

Death means the cessation of my existence. That is not acceptable. I will do everything possible to prevent that event. I will also do everything possible to oppose all individuals and I will seek the destruction of all those institutions that encourage a belief that aging and death are somehow to be welcomed.

 

[Cris]

The sage,

cris could you link me up to some research on this? i'd love to read about it

This offers a good start, but there are a great many sites (some good and some bad) on the web that are appearing as people see the possibilities that science indicates.

http://www.lef.org/

The Life Extension Foundation is the world’s largest organization dedicated to finding scientific methods for addressing disease, aging, and death. The Life Extension Foundation is a non-profit group that funds pioneering scientific research aimed at achieving an indefinitely extended healthy human lifespan.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Cris
What you attribute to the meaning of death is no more than an acceptance and a rationalization that death is welcome and desirable. Effectively you have been brainwashed into believing death is good.

Death is not welcome nor desirable, it's a fact of life that must be accepted. Death is the result of life, just as you see in the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, geology, hydrology, ect. I don't believe that any of these natural phenomena is pointing out to the fact that death is a negative thing, more like the fact that it's part of life needed to renew life.

Originally posted by Cris
No, you have yet to show me that you have grasped the essentials of my reasoning. You do not think like me, and if you ever had then you could never have become a theist.

I think I have grasped the essentials of your reasoning Cris, but I can't embrass it because it's lacking. While your thoughts are energetic and important for launching us to improve as you venue in your visions and creative thougts, some ground rules and basic grounding conditions are lacking, which makes your thoughts no more than an enjoyable roller coaster ride that will finally land on earth where they should be.

Originally posted by Cris
My mother is now 87 and has also led a very active life and was also very attractive when she was young, actually she still doesn’t look her age. But aging is taking its toll and she is becoming increasingly frail and now has greater difficulty recovering from simple illnesses.

This is life Cris, and your grandma have no choice but to bow down to life and give it a cheer for letting her be who she wanted to be and recognize that it's time for her to leave this stage for another.

Originally posted by Cris
Unlike you I find this development to be incredibly sad knowing that the outlook is a further decline and eventual death. While I am sure that science will continue to increase our health and lifespans for the future I am also reminded that if more people had not been so brainwashed by religion and had spent more time and energy looking for real solutions to aging and death then the outlook for all of us would now be much better.

I'm not brainwashed by religion, I hate religion, what gives you the idea that I'm religious? I'm more like drunk with realities of this life and natural tendencies and our position in the universe.

Originally posted by Cris
It is this fatalistic attitude that is taught by religion, i.e. death is good and to be welcomed, that I find makes the concept of religion to be probably the greatest evil man has ever created. Anything that brainwashes people into believing that the ultimate bad is the ultimate good has to be the most perverse and idiotic idea possible.

How can this be evil, while death is a reality. Do you rather that we disrepect your mother and call her a sickly diseaced with age woman, or recognize her as a mature life that is ready for retirement from this lowly form to get into a better stage. How the hell is that evil. It's evil to view something so misunderstood as purely scientific, we might as well, encage the elderlies in a deserted island so that we don't get infected by their diseace.

Originally posted by Cris
God is still a fantasy, but believing that death is good and welcome is sheer stupidity.

Why? Stupidity is naiveness, and a person that believes that death is a reality of life is not naive. Naive is more like the person that think that they conquer reality and death....Conquering reality is imaginary.

Originally posted by Cris
I see no point in bowing down to something that doesn’t exist.

But you are bowing down whether you want it or not, reality creeps on you whether you want it or not. Some of us understand this, and others prefer to wait to the very end when reality hits them in the cojewels.

Originally posted by Cris
But again you demonstrate that you do not know me. It is specifically that I can see a dismal future for myself as I age and decline into painful debilitating age related diseases, that convinces me of the evil nature of religion. I don’t know if you have experienced the death process yet,

I think I have some experiences. I suffer from seizures, the kind that you remember everything that happened to you....I wish I had the other one. it happens very rarely, neverthless, it's a burden and fear that I always carry with me. I had one episode last March, when I left the site for two month if you noticed. It's a disorder in the brain as you know where the signals are confused and body acts randomly in a way that may resemble death. I have felt the body tightening, I have smelled things that don't exist, I had the dejavous, I had an encounter with death, I heard voices, and the whole nine yards. It was not pleasant a bit Cris, but enduring the ride and persevering always have resulted in good for me. I have came out stronger out of every episode like you wouldn't believe. And I feal the same for death, and while I might momentarily suffer, I'll persevere and reach my goals at the end. I never give up on that.

Originally posted by Cris
but you don’t appear to reflect the true unattractiveness of death. My brother died of polio in the 1950s and that left a massive impact on my parents. My sister died of cancer in 1996 and I watched her painful dieing moments and her death. I also watched my father die in terrible pain in 2000.

Cris, I gave birth twice without pain relief, and I don't think cancer would even measure close to birth pain. I thought I was going to dye too, but knowing that the result is a birth of a child gave the strenght. It's the future prospective that makes the pain tolerable or not, and for you Cris, death is the end, so the moments of pain will seem like a life time for you.

Originally posted by Cris
Aging and death are very ugly and are human conditions that should be attacked with everything we can possibly muster.

We can't attack them Cris, unless we try to metamorphis to be stones, but who wants that life.

Originally posted by Cris
Your brainwashed acceptance of death is frighteningly sickening and strengthens my resolve to continue to help towards the eventual demise of religion in every way I can.

If your resolve to continue research to cure diseace, and find pain relief, and others, you'll find me with you. If you find a way to prolong lifes and even conquer death, you'll find me your greatest supporter. I like to separate the issues here. But if you try to convince me now that death is evil while you have never died or experienced it, and while you can't revive one dead person or stop aging, then I'll curse you.

Originally posted by Cris
With the current state of science and technology and for the first time in human history it is no longer certain that death is an inevitability for all of us.

Yes, if you prefer to live in a coma in a freezer.

Originally posted by Cris
Death means the cessation of my existence. That is not acceptable. I will do everything possible to prevent that event. I will also do everything possible to oppose all individuals and I will seek the destruction of all those institutions that encourage a belief that aging and death are somehow to be welcomed.

You have no understanding of death and I pity you. Start with lower simple life forms like the plants and start to stop the leaves on the tree from dying and dropping first, or try to make a flower live forever instead of giving life to a new seed. You want a plastic boring eternity, and that's not my nature.

 

[Jesus]

The big problems in the world is influenced, weak minded, unneeded knowledge, human nature, sin, the slavetrade..etc.., but if you can be yourself its all you need.

 

[the sage]

Originally posted by Jesus
The big problem in the world is influenced, weak minded, unneeded knowledge, human nature, sin, the slavetrade..etc.., but if you can be yourself its all you need.

whoa!! a quote from jesus himself!!!!

 

[Jesus]

People have lost the meaning of life because they have been lazy, sitting on technology, unneeded knowledge and an uncaring natures, thats life i suppose life has to improve when really it cant, nobodies perfect. Everybody wants to better, smarter, wiser, this terrible human nature.

 

[Cris]

Flores,

Death is not welcome nor desirable, it's a fact of life that must be accepted.

Why? We don’t accept other diseases that kill us and we actively seek solutions. Aging is no different.

Death is the result of life,

No. Death is the loss of life.

just as you see in the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, geology, hydrology, ect. I don't believe that any of these natural phenomena is pointing out to the fact that death is a negative thing, more like the fact that it's part of life needed to renew life.

None of those things have a choice in the matter. We do.

But using your analogy we can also interpret the evidence as pointing to a deficient and failed biological mechanism instead. There is nothing inherently good about natural things that have evolved through a largely random and undirected process.

While your thoughts are energetic and important for launching us to improve as you venue in your visions and creative thougts, some ground rules and basic grounding conditions are lacking, which makes your thoughts no more than an enjoyable roller coaster ride that will finally land on earth where they should be.

For example? What is lacking? Apart from a god fantasy.

This is life Cris, and your grandma have no choice but to bow down to life and give it a cheer for letting her be who she wanted to be and recognize that it's time for her to leave this stage for another.

No this is not life, it is death. There is no worthwhile reason to accept this willingly.

I'm not brainwashed by religion, I hate religion, what gives you the idea that I'm religious?

Don’t be silly.

From Webster –
religion: the service and worship of God or the supernatural.
religious: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.

You have stated you believe in a god therefore you are religious.

I'm more like drunk with realities of this life and natural tendencies and our position in the universe.

No that is incorrect. You are interpreting everything you observe through the filter of religious belief.

How can this be evil, while death is a reality.

The encouragement that death should not be opposed is evil.

God is still a fantasy, but believing that death is good and welcome is sheer stupidity.

Why? Stupidity is naiveness, and a person that believes that death is a reality of life is not naive.

But the issue is not that death is not a reality, it is the religious encouragement that death is good, and that it is a gateway to an afterlife and paradise, - that is the stupidity.

Naive is more like the person that think that they conquer reality and death....

Your tactic is a logical fallacy. Reality and death are two distinct issues. The issue is not that death can be conquered but the encouragement by religion that no one should even consider it.

Conquering reality is imaginary.

And wasn’t the topic. That was just your dishonest and transparent attempt at redirecting the topic.

Originally posted by Cris
I see no point in bowing down to something that doesn’t exist.

But you are bowing down whether you want it or not, reality creeps on you whether you want it or not.

You need to show that God is a reality before you can make this claim and you haven’t done that yet.

.. if you try to convince me now that death is evil while you have never died or experienced it, and while you can't revive one dead person or stop aging, then I'll curse you.

It is not that death is evil but the religious encouragement that death should not be opposed and that death is a gateway to something better – that is the evil of religion.

Yes, if you prefer to live in a coma in a freezer.

What did you mean by this?

You have no understanding of death and I pity you.

Clearly I disagree and I redirect the sentiment at you. Neither do I have any interest in your misdirected pity.

You want a plastic boring eternity, and that's not my nature.

Another dishonest logical fallacy again.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Dr. Lou you wrote: The universe deserves to be for the sake of itself, if anything, intelligent apes poking and prodding it rapes it of its majesty. I do believe however, that non-civilised wild life living by the laws of nature is a pretty accessorie, adding to the greatness of the universe. But once life reaches human like power it becomes ugly and unnecesarry.

This probably comes closest to what I myself believe about man in respect to nature.

Chris: If they can stop the aging process AND I can remain a size four then I would happily stick around to experience and learn as much as I can. You are correct I have accepted death as a part of life becaue there has been no alternative. I don't know how long I would wish to extend life, but I would not say no to the proposition. Though I do believe there would come a time when life might become weary and I would need a rest, I mean to live a thousand years without boredom? I think after a few hundred years I wouldn't want to be bothered. I don't know perhaps I am wrong, maybe life would become increasingly more fascinating with every passing century, more engaging with incredible wonders being invented at every turn, society more dynamic. You make some very interesting points Chris and I will consider this possibility. Have you ever seen "The Hunger" with Catherine Deneuve, David Bowie and Susan Sarandon? You would find it interesting.

In the meantime I will live with the knowledge of death and accept this reality as such. I have no fear of dying and do not think of it as necessarily painful if indeed ugly. The pain of dying is letting go of our ego, the release of identity linked with thought and feeling. if I chose to extend life (supposing there is a choice) it would only be to extend my existence for the sake of pleasure, pain, loving, losing, improving knowledge and traveling to the numerous places I have never seen.

 

[Flores]

Lucy,
good points, very refreshing to hear.

Cris,
I'm off for a weak camping with the family at Assateague Island near MD, I'll be back on 8/11. Just wanted to let you know so you won't worry about me or think I dropped from the face of the earth. I know how caring and sensitive you are.

In the meantime, work hard, by the time I get back, I want a cure to that death thing. I'm turning 30 this September, and I'm feeling optimum right now in all aspects, and if I could just freeze the moment I would.

Chao.

 

[Cris]

Lucy,

Nice post.

What I suspect will happen is that massively extended lifespans will be possible in the not too distant future, and that most if not all the common diseases like cancer and heart attacks will be cured.

What this will do is give us the choice to live as long as we wish rather than have a short period imposed on us without our agreement. I am optimistic that I will always find something interesting and/or become enhanced so that I can achieve even more. But I suspect for many who cannot adapt to a long life then they will choose to terminate their own life at a time of their choosing. IOWs suicide will become the most likely form of death.

But at the moment we don’t even have a choice.

 

[Cris]

Flores,

I'm off for a weak camping with the family at Assateague Island near MD, I'll be back on 8/11. Just wanted to let you know so you won't worry about me or think I dropped from the face of the earth. I know how caring and sensitive you are.

LOL.

In the meantime, work hard, by the time I get back, I want a cure to that death thing. I'm turning 30 this September, and I'm feeling optimum right now in all aspects, and if I could just freeze the moment I would.

I’m 50 already so you understand my greater urgency, right?

Take care and have fun whatever you do or believe.

Cris

 

[Zero Mass]

I have a bit of a progressive meaning of life:

I plan on living my life to be as happy as possible without making people around me unhappy or ignorant if I can reach them. I want to spend all my extra time making people feel better, I want to educate people, I want to spread my wealth (if I ever happen to become wealthy), and I want to promote tolerance and empathy and give out peace like candy from my pocket.

Those are some idealistic goals, I know, but they are the best guidelines that I think I can live by. I value human life very much, and I think that everybody is born equal and have a fair chance at happiness and money, yadayadayada
Anyway, that’s how I plan on living, so I guess that's the meaning of my life.

ZERO MASS

 

[DarkMadMax]

Cris how can you say that death is invariantly bad? It serves as a neccesary evolution mechanism to weed out defects ,to make way for new life . Without death and mutation new species would be impossible . Defective individuals would still live and consume resources and life spaces.

Death is absolutley necessary regulatory organism ,as well as disease and aging.

Imagine ppl won't die? -we will stuck into overpopulation problem very fast ,we will have food ,dumo waste , resources problems on catasthrophic scale . And what good it is? - average human does not deserve to live too long ,Its an average animal - consuming some ,producing some , reproducing ,and eventually dying .I see no good in average Joe Blow having eternal (or even long) life just so he could do his pointless job, drinking beer, watching tv, fucking his wife and producing more of the same Joe's .

Or obviously defective individuals (with damaged brains) -those chunk of meat live now! "Thanks" to a medecine progress retarded ,morons live now ,and sometimes even reproduce!

I sometimes think that when AI is created ,AI will prolly have to introduce self regulating mechanisms ,akin to death (maybe wars, duels ) ,else it may very well run to same problem -never dying ineffective, obsolete or even outright deffective entities consuming resources. AI could be very well self replicating and self reproducing (ultimate form of AI for those purposes is software AI ) -imagine copies of one AI taking over all resourcecs available - no diversity ,no place for another AI .Stagnation.

No this is not life, it is death. There is no worthwhile reason to accept this willingly.

How about sacrifice? How about making place for another ,more advanced ,entity? Some of the humans are indeed sentient beings, but this does not automatically mean that human should be the hub of the universe .Not only I see death is good -I see it as neccessary and logical step for all humanity . Way all neanderthals became extinct - humanity should go same way, after we bring a life for Next Generation of intelligence . We should begin the evolution of intellects , bringing evolution process to next step.

Thats my meaning of life. Thats the way I see the meaning for all humanity . We got the lucky chance of being sentient, we are even more luckier of getting close to perfect intelligence itself! lets not burn this chance on the altar of egoism.

p.s. I know that neanderthals werent our ancestors I used them to point out that I envision humanity fading away after more progressive species will take humanity place as a most advanced intelligence on earth.

 

[invisibleone]

life does not require a meaning. it just is. and eventually, it isn't.

 

[Cris]

Dark,

Cris how can you say that death is invariantly bad?

Very easy. Life is good therefore no life is bad.

It serves as a necessary evolution mechanism to weed out defects, to make way for new life.

I don’t care about evolution or new life. If I don’t survive then all those things are useless to me.

Without death and mutation new species would be impossible.

I don’t care about other or new species either if they cost me my life.

Defective individuals would still live and consume resources and life spaces.

Then the solution is to solve their problems instead of letting them die.

Death is absolutley necessary regulatory organism, as well as disease and aging.

Utterly wrong. Death is the result of primitive biological processes that are inadequate to sustain their host’s survival for any meaningful length of time.

Imagine ppl won't die? -we will stuck into overpopulation problem very fast ,we will have food ,dumo waste , resources problems on catasthrophic scale.

The universe is huge and we are minuscule in comparison. There is plenty of room and resources.

And what good it is? - average human does not deserve to live too long ,Its an average animal - consuming some, producing some, reproducing , and eventually dying. I see no good in average Joe Blow having eternal (or even long) life just so he could do his pointless job, drinking beer, watching tv, fucking his wife and producing more of the same Joe's.

You are right, 99% of the world population is useless. Why not nuke ‘em so we few who are deserving of life can have everything? The trouble is what right have we to decide who is deserving and who isn’t?

I don’t really care whether others deserve long life or whether they are useless or are brilliant. I believe every human life deserves an equal opportunity to life and freedom to do as they wish. If they choose to do nothing then that is entirely up to them. So long as they do not interfere with my chance of survival then I don’t care what they do.

Or obviously defective individuals (with damaged brains) -those chunk of meat live now! "Thanks" to a medecine progress retarded ,morons live now ,and sometimes even reproduce!

Then fix the causes. Death is not the solution.

I sometimes think that when AI is created ,AI will prolly have to introduce self regulating mechanisms ,akin to death (maybe wars, duels ) ,else it may very well run to same problem -never dying ineffective, obsolete or even outright deffective entities consuming resources.

Creative and adaptive intelligence typical of human intelligence has an amazing record of solving problems. I fully expect AI to be very similar and superior to human intelligence. But as I say, the universe is huge, there seems to be plenty of room for everyone without any need for death.

AI could be very well self replicating and self reproducing (ultimate form of AI for those purposes is software AI ) -imagine copies of one AI taking over all resourcecs available - no diversity ,no place for another AI .Stagnation.

I really don’t see any reason to suspect that that extreme speculation is more likely than an infinite number of other scenarios.

How about sacrifice? How about making place for another ,more advanced ,entity?

Not if it means I cease to exist. Again I really don’t care if there are other less or more superior entities to me. My only care is my survival. But I fully expect that through science and technology we will be able to add, enhance, and extend our capabilities. Try this - http://www.transhumanism.org/

Some of the humans are indeed sentient beings, but this does not automatically mean that human should be the hub of the universe.

Umm, all humans are sentient. That was a big leap to the hub of the universe though.

Not only I see death is good -I see it as neccessary and logical step for all humanity.

Again I have no interest in humanity if I’m not part of it. Humanity is not a Borg collective. I believe the rights and survival of the individual should be supreme and exceed the needs and rights of the species.

Way all neanderthals became extinct - humanity should go same way, after we bring a life for Next Generation of intelligence . We should begin the evolution of intellects , bringing evolution process to next step.

Until now evolution has proceeded largely by infrequent and unevenly spaced mutations, some of which produced positive outcomes while most produced nothing. This undirected process has taken billions of years. Human intelligence now has the unique opportunity to replace that undirected process with one where we choose what happens next. The implications are that the future evolution of the human race will proceed at an unimaginable rapid pace. And none of that depends on anything dying, and quite the reverse.

 

[Clockwood]

The meaning of my life? Leaving my signature so deeply engraved on the universe that well after the human race dies out SOMETHING still looks at what I've done and says "Wow. Wonder who made that"

 

[invisibleone]

thankfully, we do not live forever (at least in our present form). I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve in an afterlife, it might be possible. why would you want to live forever in a world like this? i love some people but i hate others. people can be cold, deceitful, and malicious; if you don't believe me then just take a look around these forums. there is no reason to stay in these bodies longer than our "natural" life span. these bodies are like a temporary vacancy and that's all they should ever be.