What is the starting point?

[wynn]

but seeing the title "what is the starting point".. i'm a bit confused..

Instead of asking "What is the starting point?", I could also ask "How to get out of the gray zone (ie. the gray zone of not belonging anywhere, not being defined)?"

It seems to me that this gray zone is big and has high walls that are very hard to climb over.

what is religion to you?
why do you feel the need to start at all?
just by wanting to start, how could you stop abruptly?

is it like you decided god exists and are looking for the best suiting religion? or though it fun or more healthy or something and decided to follow one but are confused as to which one? or do you already hold one and you're now questioning it?

how can you stop at the start?

Thank you for your questions, they made me think.

I sort of arrived at the gate of a religion, but then it seems the members didn't want me, nor can I say with any certainty that I have understood its tenets and practices.
So what am I to do. I am back in the gray zone. It seems to me that to enter through that gate would take me a great amount of solitary faith and practice, but I do not think I will have that in any foreseeable time.

It is like trying to join any elite society or organisation while not having the qualification. Then the question becomes whether it is worth it to join that society or organisation at all, whether the effort needed to gain the qualification to join will outweigh the benefits of joining and whether there is good reason to believe that one will be able to retain this qualification; and if yes, then how to make it through that unforeseeably long period of trying to become qualified; and if not, what to do then with one's life if one decided that not enough benefit can be expected from joining or that trying to gain the qualification is simply too difficult.

 

[scifes]

so why do you want to be part of that society?
at which one of the gates of religion are you exactly at?the one connected to what road?


why are the qualifications hard? and if they are, why do you feel the faint urge of obtaining them?

shouldn't you be doing the requisites of religion because you feel like it?....man you're odd

 

[wynn]

Yes, I guess I am odd ...

It's as if I have been convinced against my will to turn toward religion. Perhaps this is the core of my problem to begin with.

 

[Enmos]

Signal wants to belong..
?

 

[scifes]

Yes, I guess I am odd ...

It's as if I have been convinced against my will to turn toward religion. Perhaps this is the core of my problem to begin with.

what you are convinced of shapes your will to some extent...
the thing that convinced you of religion...

Signal wants to belong..
?

is the same reason you want to belong to it (and not some other group)

YET!!!
it is not enough to guide you to which religion???

what is that thing?

 

[Enmos]

is the same reason you want to belong to it (and not some other group)

YET!!!
it is not enough to guide you to which religion???

what is that thing?

Um.. what?
Signal does not believe in a God, right? Signal just wants to be part of something Signal thinks is wonderful, or so it seems.

 

[Enmos]

First thing you have to do is believe that God exists (this thread assumes he does).

Next think you need to grasp is what is the reasons that God has to exist in other words why did you come to this conclusion in the first place- you would think that this would be the first step, but here you are simply reflecting on your first decision.

That's delusion, or at least it may lead to it.

 

[wynn]

Unlike these folks who're talking about 'be yourself', I think religion is important.

The way I approach this issue is from beginning.

Thank you, and your way seems quite complex!

Next think you need to grasp is what is the reasons that God has to exist in other words why did you come to this conclusion in the first place- you would think that this would be the first step, but here you are simply reflecting on your first decision.

I really wouldn't know how exactly I came to this conclusion that God (has to) exist.

I tend to think it is because the alternative (that there is no God and existence is just some cosmic joke) is too repugnant for me to accept.

I suppose this is not a good reason - it doesn't encourage toward action, it only says that some other way is too bad to take, so I shouldn't take it, while I am still at the crossroads.


What are your reasons that God has to exist?

I think once you find the 'reasons' for God's exist, then you can proceed to asking the obvious question. If God exists and he made 'us' then did he create us for a purpose or not... Most people would answer 'yes' here.

It seems somehow easy from this point on - God is good, our purpose is to know and love God.

But I haven't completed the first step yet.

So I think you can take a pretty logical approach, but it is difficult.

Yes ...

 

[wynn]

what you are convinced of shapes your will to some extent...
the thing that convinced you of religion...

is the same reason you want to belong to it (and not some other group)

YET!!!
it is not enough to guide you to which religion???

what is that thing?

Suffering.

 

[decons]

While the Neolithic Agricultural Revolutions, earliest in the Middle East around 10000 BC(1), resulted as large settlements and more organized religions, the invention of writing, by Sumer civilization around 3500 BC(2), "played a major role in sustaining organized religion by standardizing religious ideas regardless of time or location" (3). One of the earliest known monotheistic religions, Atenism, appeared about 2000 BC in Egypt(4), with its sun god Aten.

Hunter-gatherers probably felt more like a part of the nature where they chased the animals or picked the fruits. Animals and trees were subject to the same rules as they were. They also lived in small numbers.

After the agricultural revolution, the difference was obvious. With a little help from always reliable cycles of the sun and seasons, humans were breeding animals and growing plants that were never seen before(5). Thus, the humans started to entertain themselves with the idea of being different than others in nature, with the idea of the one.

Instead of claiming this new idea of oneness as a human quality, it was applied to the nature, probably because there were other forces determining the productivity. It was firstly attributed to the sun, but it was not the only factor influencing the crops, so humans started to combine their already written legends such as Epic of Gilgamesh with an idea of all powerful and also very human-like god (6).

The whole written human history points out a series of transition periods. Our awareness of our own uniqueness brought us here. The next levels of this history will be results of new knowledges, not the old ones.

(1)www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution#Social_change
(2)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer#Language_and_writing
(3)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions
(4)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism
(5)www.killerplants.com/weird-plants/20010830.asp
(6)www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

 

[NMSquirrel]

Yes, I guess I am odd ...

i don't know your situation..but it sounds like to me you are searching for more information about what/who god is..
don't get trapped into believing a certain way just cause the religion tells you to..
question everything hold onto what is good..
studying history of the church,of the bible, is a good start,
you do not have to believe that as soon as you choose to subscribe to the doctrines/teachings of a particular religion,that you are commited to that religion for life..
IMO different churches teach different aspects of who god is (in a perfect world..) sometime in order to learn truer aspects of god,one has to search the different religions for their wisdom(this can be challenging) and apply it to what you think god has put into your life..

IOW.. search for the churches that teach history and/or the bible,leave the ones that make you feel worthless whenever you ask a question (the goal is knowledge and wisdom not 'do as your told')

It's as if I have been convinced against my will to turn toward religion. Perhaps this is the core of my problem to begin with.

is it ppl or circumstances that is convincing you?
if it is circumstances i would argue that it is god that wants you to turn towards him (not religion)
if it is ppl..well...thats a faith call as to their motivations for convincing you..

IOW do not place your faith in religion..place it in God..

also IMO
don't let ANY of them convince you that you have to jump through their hoops in order to be 'saved'..your are already saved (just by being alive)(what? are they gonna crucify him again?)

 

[scifes]

I tend to think it is because the alternative (that there is no God and existence is just some cosmic joke) is too repugnant for me to accept.

EXCELLENT!!.. i take my hat off to you sire..
putting the reason of why i think that would require an essay, but i really appreciate that simply practical way of thinking.. why search for which answer is correct when one is surely wrong for you, and the total of options is only two?

I suppose this is not a good reason - it doesn't encourage toward action, it only says that some other way is too bad to take, so I shouldn't take it, while I am still at the crossroads.

this kinda explains the "now what?" attitude...
mm, well considering that your main motive is

Suffering.

[?]
then perhaps you should look for religions which would be most attentive to such suffering??
(what do you mean by suffering anyway? personal scale, humanity as a whole or what?)
besides, can't you deal with that suffering in a way other than religion? or is it such a BIG problem which you couldn't find a BIG enough solution to other
than the BIG god?

you can indulge into alcohol you know..

cuz i still see suffering unconnected to your mentioned deduction that god exists..

It seems somehow easy from this point on - God is good, our purpose is to know and love God.

But I haven't completed the first step yet.

well let me help you with that...
if god is bad, we're doomed anyway;
if god is a liar, we're doomed.
if god is a trickster, we're doomed.
if god is messing around with us, we're also doomed.
so not only is taking things as they seem easier, but they're also in reality the only choice we've got(although a certain poster here once had the notion of "not giving up")

Suffering.

 

[jmpet]

http://www.mkgandhi-sarvodaya.org/momgandhi/momindex.htm

"There is only one way to think and that is the right way."

 

[NMSquirrel]

http://www.mkgandhi-sarvodaya.org/momgandhi/momindex.htm

"There is only one way to think and that is the right way."

i tend to think a little to the left..

 

[wynn]

EXCELLENT!!.. i take my hat off to you sire..
putting the reason of why i think that would require an essay, but i really appreciate that simply practical way of thinking.. why search for which answer is correct when one is surely wrong for you, and the total of options is only two?

So what is your reason for believing that God exists?

then perhaps you should look for religions which would be most attentive to such suffering??

I have. But as it turns out, I do not have the qualification to enter.

(what do you mean by suffering anyway? personal scale, humanity as a whole or what?)

Birth, aging, illness and death, in all their forms.

besides, can't you deal with that suffering in a way other than religion? or is it such a BIG problem which you couldn't find a BIG enough solution to other
than the BIG god?

you can indulge into alcohol you know..

I am long past hoping for release by means of drugs.

well let me help you with that...
if god is bad, we're doomed anyway;
if god is a liar, we're doomed.
if god is a trickster, we're doomed.
if god is messing around with us, we're also doomed.

?! How can anyone live without having resolved those issues?!

so not only is taking things as they seem easier

Lucky for you if you can take things as they seem, I guess ...

 

[wynn]

While the Neolithic Agricultural Revolutions, earliest in the Middle East around 10000 BC(1), resulted as large settlements and more organized religions, the invention of writing, by Sumer civilization around 3500 BC(2), "played a major role in sustaining organized religion by standardizing religious ideas regardless of time or location" (3). One of the earliest known monotheistic religions, Atenism, appeared about 2000 BC in Egypt(4), with its sun god Aten.

Hunter-gatherers probably felt more like a part of the nature where they chased the animals or picked the fruits. Animals and trees were subject to the same rules as they were. They also lived in small numbers.

After the agricultural revolution, the difference was obvious. With a little help from always reliable cycles of the sun and seasons, humans were breeding animals and growing plants that were never seen before(5). Thus, the humans started to entertain themselves with the idea of being different than others in nature, with the idea of the one.

Instead of claiming this new idea of oneness as a human quality, it was applied to the nature, probably because there were other forces determining the productivity. It was firstly attributed to the sun, but it was not the only factor influencing the crops, so humans started to combine their already written legends such as Epic of Gilgamesh with an idea of all powerful and also very human-like god (6).

The whole written human history points out a series of transition periods. Our awareness of our own uniqueness brought us here. The next levels of this history will be results of new knowledges, not the old ones.

(1)www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution#Social_change
(2)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer#Language_and_writing
(3)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions
(4)www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism
(5)www.killerplants.com/weird-plants/20010830.asp
(6)www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

And this should help me how?

 

[scifes]

So what is your reason for believing that God exists?

many,
first, i was born into religion, and was heavily indoctrinated.
at some point, i started wondering if i was played for a fool, if i'm fed what others think is right but really isn't, if there was no objective right, is the one i'm with the best out there? do holders of other religions feel the same about their religion the same i do? what does that make of both our religions?

i remember working my brain at 150% capacity for two weeks or something putting everything at stake, afraid that i might die while i'm still in doubt and face what might turn to be not worth that risk, i reset my alignment and started all over decided god exists the same way you did, if he didn't exist and i believed he did, ii wouldn't matter and i'll live easily, then i started dissecting my old religion with the highest levels of skepticism, examining it's provided evidences, putting them up against conspiracy theories and other people's explanations and POVs, tried to apply my deduction to other similar religions to see if they would fit them too,
and made my choice.

if you're starting from zero, it might be a bit harder, but you've gotta find some criteria to filter out all what's available and proceed with a selection.

I have. But as it turns out, I do not have the qualification to enter.

may i ask what religion is that?

Birth, aging, illness and death, in all their forms.

so you're tired of life?

I am long past hoping for release by means of drugs.

an overdose might do it

?! How can anyone live without having resolved those issues?!

uh, "god doesn't exist?"

Lucky for you if you can take things as they seem, I guess ...

not really..
look:
i have a coin in one of my closed hands, if you figure which one, i'll give you 10,00 bucks.
.
.
i also tell you it's in my right hand.
so you think:
i could be lying to get you lose the money, so it's in my left,
or i figured you'll think that way so it really is in my right.(baiting you to think i lied)
or i knew you'll reach that conclusion(about me baiting you with my untold lie) so it's really in my left.
etc...

take it simple and choose any hand.
which is what i usually do in the end.

 

[wynn]

many,
first, i was born into religion, and was heavily indoctrinated.
at some point, i started wondering if i was played for a fool, if i'm fed what others think is right but really isn't, if there was no objective right, is the one i'm with the best out there? do holders of other religions feel the same about their religion the same i do? what does that make of both our religions?

i remember working my brain at 150% capacity for two weeks or something putting everything at stake, afraid that i might die while i'm still in doubt and face what might turn to be not worth that risk, i reset my alignment and started all over decided god exists the same way you did, if he didn't exist and i believed he did, ii wouldn't matter and i'll live easily, then i started dissecting my old religion with the highest levels of skepticism, examining it's provided evidences, putting them up against conspiracy theories and other people's explanations and POVs, tried to apply my deduction to other similar religions to see if they would fit them too,
and made my choice.

Two weeks or something? Wow.
For me, it's been at least ten years.

if you're starting from zero, it might be a bit harder, but you've gotta find some criteria to filter out all what's available and proceed with a selection.

That is the problem, the criteria.

may i ask what religion is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudiya

so you're tired of life?

Yes ...

not really..
look:
i have a coin in one of my closed hands, if you figure which one, i'll give you 10,00 bucks.
.
.
i also tell you it's in my right hand.
so you think:
i could be lying to get you lose the money, so it's in my left,
or i figured you'll think that way so it really is in my right.(baiting you to think i lied)
or i knew you'll reach that conclusion(about me baiting you with my untold lie) so it's really in my left.
etc...

take it simple and choose any hand.
which is what i usually do in the end.

I don't understand the point of this?
How does this relate to choosing a religion or knowing where to start?

 

[scifes]

Two weeks or something? Wow.
For me, it's been at least ten years.

i've been studying my religion for more than ten years(and still am)
the two weeks were the test, the validation pause.

That is the problem, the criteria.

well for me it was truth, objective reality, what is REALLY happening insde this world and outside it. as opposed to assumptions.
for you it seems the need to change from an undesired or uncomfortable present, so it's more of being in a place other than where you are now than being in an exact place you're looking for (like me, as i was pretty happy with the religion i was with, but i wanted to be in the BEST religion there is to be with, and i still hold that desire).

so if you're merely looking for change, the criteria isn't that big of a deal is it? it's anything except what you're in now..better of course, but that's still a wide range..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudiya

wow, never even heard of it before, so is it the vegetarian thingy or the yoga or what exactly makes you feel inadequate to join it?
note that most religions don't mind you disobeying some rules as long as you follow the main stream teachings.

also, why that particular sect of Hinduism and not some other? is there something special about it or was it a random pick?

Yes ...

...
were you an atheist uptill now?or did you use to follow some other religion?

I don't understand the point of this?
How does this relate to choosing a religion or knowing where to start?

meh, it's something that used to drive me crazy when examining evidences or proofs for certain religions..perhaps unrelated to the op as you said.

 

[lightgigantic]

I would know! They don't take one into counselling unless one makes it clear that one is sure that one wants counselling or other help offered.




Sure, and I was able to get along with the regimen for some time. But sooner or later, there come frustrations and the usual optimistic and postive pep-talks don't work anymore, and I needed a more substantial encouragement.
I almost cried when it was suggested to me to go to the movies or to go swimming on the weekend as a reward for a week of work.

While (substantial) encouragement does have its place, I'm pretty sure that no amount of it is a substitute for one's own desire and will being behind an issue.

But how does one develop that initial conviction?

It comes in at the point of conclusion, IOW we initially think or hear about something, perhaps act accordingly or somehow understand that information, and then we develop some sort of conviction one way or another.

For instance, one could ask, how did you develop the conviction that there are serious issues about approaching the starting point of spiritual life.

So what I am noticing in religious people and calling "material welfare" is actually a considerable absence of attachment, fear and anger?

actually I was making the point that a lack of conviction finds its air in these three things, as explained in the purport ... eg, fear of personality, etc etc

And that these people have had a lot less attachment, fear and anger than me to begin with - which is why it was easier for them to take up spiritual discipline than it is for me?

Even if one is to accept that they have a greatly reduced influence of these things, you don't know what trials and tribulations they have gone through to be that way.

This is me - some of them disbelieve in everything, being angry at all sorts of spiritual speculation out of hopelessness.


What if I saw it differently:
What if I don't actually lack conviction so much (and so shouldn't beat myself up over lacking conviction and trying to contrive it), but instead think that I have some conviction, it is just that I also have a lot of attachments, fear and anger which make it harder for me to act on that conviction -?

And that therefore, I should first find a common-sense way to reduce my attachment, fear and anger?

seriously, the whole thing is about application and when one gets to it. Its the nature of the mind to embroil itself in further mental gymnastics.... and thios all has its place, but its not perfectional. IOW even if you do stumble upon or develop some clarity, your mind will knock it down like a sandcastle some time down the track. (IOW sattva guna - or any other guna for that matter - gets outdone by the other two modes sooner or later)

Yes, I expected you'd say that.

lol

well now that you know, now what?