What is the starting point?

[wynn]

What is the starting point for personal theism?

Finding (abstract, general) philosophical grounds for believing in God is easy.
There is plenty of texts and arguments available from various sources.

But there seems to be this enormous gray area of "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"

I suppose that in traditional theistic societies, this gray area was very small or didn't exist at all.
But nowadays, it seems like it is enormous, dominant, and many people find themselves in it.

I was able to find only very little about how to make this choice - "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"
There is the odd quiz at Beliefnet or Yahoo Answers and such about which religion one has a tendency toward. But apart from that, there seems to be no neutral authority that one could consult about this choice.

The individual religions of course provide their own reasons and ways of doing things. But they all seem to require quite a considerable initial commitment.

Reading scriptures or participating in the activities of religious groups cannot be done with indifference (at least not for long), with an experimental attitude of "I'll see in time whether this is true or not".

At least I have found myself unable to take an experimental approach to it. Instead, I have felt that a considerable commitment would need to be made on my part if I were to continue with the studies and participation. But I found myself unable to make such a commitment.


So what would be that initial appropriate attitude or outlook as one sets out on the path of searching for the Absolute truth?

 

[one_raven]

An open, yet discerning, mind. A willingness to learn. The time to read.

I spent many years reading as much information I could find on different religions, speaking to members & clergy of different religions and went to many "church services".

After nearly 30 years (so far) of searching, I came to the conculsion that while I can take something meaningful and beneficial from almost every religion I have learned about, none of them are exactly right for me.

I think most people are willing to accept close enough, or just take whet their parents passed down to them without much close examination.
I am not one of those people.
If I don't agree 100% with what the religion teaches, then I will not be a member.

I think a key point is that many people feel the need to belong to a religion - that somehow they need their beliefs validated by a group. I can't relate to that at all. I have my beliefs.
I look to philosophers and others to see what they have to say and do my best to honestly scrutinize it and sometimes that honest look will result in chaning my beliefs - but I will not alter my beliefs TO belong, nor will I belong to that which I do not believe.

 

[Bishadi]

Finding (abstract, general) philosophical grounds for believing in God is easy.
There is plenty of texts and arguments available from various sources.

But there seems to be this enormous gray area of "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"

I suppose that in traditional theistic societies, this gray area was very small or didn't exist at all.
But nowadays, it seems like it is enormous, dominant, and many people find themselves in it.

I was able to find only very little about how to make this choice - "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"
There is the odd quiz at Beliefnet or Yahoo Answers and such about which religion one has a tendency toward. But apart from that, there seems to be no neutral authority that one could consult about this choice.

The individual religions of course provide their own reasons and ways of doing things. But they all seem to require quite a considerable initial commitment.

Reading scriptures or participating in the activities of religious groups cannot be done with indifference (at least not for long), with an experimental attitude of "I'll see in time whether this is true or not".

At least I have found myself unable to take an experimental approach to it. Instead, I have felt that a considerable commitment would need to be made on my part if I were to continue with the studies and participation. But I found myself unable to make such a commitment.


So what would be that initial appropriate attitude or outlook as one sets out on the path of searching for the Absolute truth?

honesty over belief

it is the easiest A1 rule to keep

if you not sure on a subject, ask questions (use the internet)

ie... each action you impose to exist, be honest with yourself.

is it good, or is is selfish

basic

 

[Lori_7]

Finding (abstract, general) philosophical grounds for believing in God is easy.
There is plenty of texts and arguments available from various sources.

But there seems to be this enormous gray area of "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"

I suppose that in traditional theistic societies, this gray area was very small or didn't exist at all.
But nowadays, it seems like it is enormous, dominant, and many people find themselves in it.

I was able to find only very little about how to make this choice - "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"
There is the odd quiz at Beliefnet or Yahoo Answers and such about which religion one has a tendency toward. But apart from that, there seems to be no neutral authority that one could consult about this choice.

The individual religions of course provide their own reasons and ways of doing things. But they all seem to require quite a considerable initial commitment.

Reading scriptures or participating in the activities of religious groups cannot be done with indifference (at least not for long), with an experimental attitude of "I'll see in time whether this is true or not".

At least I have found myself unable to take an experimental approach to it. Instead, I have felt that a considerable commitment would need to be made on my part if I were to continue with the studies and participation. But I found myself unable to make such a commitment.


So what would be that initial appropriate attitude or outlook as one sets out on the path of searching for the Absolute truth?

don't start. there is absolutely no need to be religious. why confine yourself like that? god isn't religious. god isn't religion. why not just be yourself? have your own thoughts and experiences and assign meaning to them accordingly. there is no need to become indoctrinated, perform rituals, attend services and ceremony, or to congregate in particular buildings. doesn't it make sense that if god is god, that it could handle having a relationship with you without some institutionalized intermediary?

 

[wynn]

don't start. there is absolutely no need to be religious. why confine yourself like that? god isn't religious. god isn't religion.

If not in religion(s), how then can one have any information about what God is like and how He can be known?

Going by my own haphazard ideas seems nothing short of solipsistic insanity to me.

why not just be yourself?

I have "been myself". I still suffer. "Just being myself" does not make an end to suffering. What I want is that I wouldn't suffer.

have your own thoughts and experiences and assign meaning to them accordingly.

That's solipsism!

there is no need to become indoctrinated, perform rituals, attend services and ceremony, or to congregate in particular buildings. doesn't it make sense that if god is god, that it could handle having a relationship with you without some institutionalized intermediary?

You think God, in all His perfection and purity, wants to have a relationship with a confused, crazed, power-hungry, suffering-struck person, or that a confused, crazed, power-hungry, suffering-struck person is in position to have a satisfactory relationship with God?

 

[Bishadi]

If not in religion(s), how then can one have any information about what God is like and how He can be known?

signal, you are a part of all of us. We are from the previous copulation of our parents choice; a life experiencing existence, in this time.

The same soil (elements) that enabled any other person, life or heaven is of the same. This is our time to live and learn.

You can experience all the same that any could ever even write about. (try a spy novel and enjoy the ride; ludlum)

Going by my own haphazard ideas seems nothing short of solipsistic insanity to me.

perhaps to have centralizing of importance, then the chaos can be placed in order.
First, is life. ie.. breathing is autonomic. Eating is where choice begins to show itself, then all else is pretty much of choice. Each will also experience the instinct of procreation; begins an innert desire. In all cases, life is what each of us are experiencing and purposed to continue on with.

Does these make sense?

I have "been myself". I still suffer. "Just being myself" does not make an end to suffering. What I want is that I wouldn't suffer.

the mind being unaware of its purpose is where suffering lives

like awaking each morning and not knowing why

but if you alive, you have purpose, simply by instinct. Yet can and do make an effect to everything around you. Choice is where you are the most important to mind.

you yourself is what makes you so good (a mind experiencing from its own point of view; absolutely fantastic)

what is the most beatiful smell to you? (share that nectar, that you are experiencing)

the signal is good, thank you

 

[Lori_7]

If not in religion(s), how then can one have any information about what God is like and how He can be known?

through interaction and experience...just like anything else can be known.

Going by my own haphazard ideas seems nothing short of solipsistic insanity to me.

and going by someone else's makes more sense?

I have "been myself". I still suffer. "Just being myself" does not make an end to suffering. What I want is that I wouldn't suffer.

religion isn't going to stop your suffering any more than a relationship with god will. the cessation of suffering will only come from the annihilation of sin, which will take quite an intervention, that will happen. a relationship with god and the realization of that can help you find some peace in the meantime though.

You think God, in all His perfection and purity, wants to have a relationship with a confused, crazed, power-hungry, suffering-struck person, or that a confused, crazed, power-hungry, suffering-struck person is in position to have a satisfactory relationship with God?

yes, definitely.

 

[wynn]

and going by someone else's makes more sense?

You replied to this thread, which already implies that me going by your understanding would be allright ...

yes, definitely.

Well, I suppose we live in different universes then ...

 

[lightgigantic]

Finding (abstract, general) philosophical grounds for believing in God is easy.
There is plenty of texts and arguments available from various sources.

But there seems to be this enormous gray area of "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"

I suppose that in traditional theistic societies, this gray area was very small or didn't exist at all.
But nowadays, it seems like it is enormous, dominant, and many people find themselves in it.

I was able to find only very little about how to make this choice - "Which religion to choose? Where to start?"
There is the odd quiz at Beliefnet or Yahoo Answers and such about which religion one has a tendency toward. But apart from that, there seems to be no neutral authority that one could consult about this choice.

The individual religions of course provide their own reasons and ways of doing things. But they all seem to require quite a considerable initial commitment.

Reading scriptures or participating in the activities of religious groups cannot be done with indifference (at least not for long), with an experimental attitude of "I'll see in time whether this is true or not".

At least I have found myself unable to take an experimental approach to it. Instead, I have felt that a considerable commitment would need to be made on my part if I were to continue with the studies and participation. But I found myself unable to make such a commitment.


So what would be that initial appropriate attitude or outlook as one sets out on the path of searching for the Absolute truth?

I guess one has to start with one's own desire, namely one's needs interests and concerns ... which will dictate so much of what is doable.

At the end of the day, we are creatures of attraction and anything done artificially will eventually fail. Having the view that "this is illusion and I should avoid it" cannot travel anywhere near the distance of "this is attractive and I really want to participate in it". So if there is some attractive aspect of spiritual life, that's what will keep us engaged.

 

[wynn]

I guess one has to start with one's own desire, namely one's needs interests and concerns ... which will dictate so much of what is doable.

At the end of the day, we are creatures of attraction and anything done artificially will eventually fail. Having the view that "this is illusion and I should avoid it" cannot travel anywhere near the distance of "this is attractive and I really want to participate in it". So if there is some attractive aspect of spiritual life, that's what will keep us engaged.

I don't feel any attraction to anything, at least not for long.
And whatever little attraction I do feel, it is soon run over by fear or other people's contempt.

 

[lightgigantic]

I don't feel any attraction to anything, at least not for long.
And whatever little attraction I do feel, it is soon run over by fear or other people's contempt.

The fact that you can't be satisfied by being dictated by the attractions of others shows there must be something you must be attracted to. If it wasn't the case, you would continue going towards whatever your nose is pointed at.

 

[wynn]

The fact that you can't be satisfied by being dictated by the attractions of others shows there must be something you must be attracted to. If it wasn't the case, you would continue going towards whatever your nose is pointed at.

So what could I do to figure out what I am attracted to?

 

[lightgigantic]

So what could I do to figure out what I am attracted to?

look at what makes you turn your nose to a different direction (or head in the same one)

 

[Lori_7]

You replied to this thread, which already implies that me going by your understanding would be allright ...

my response was to go by your own.

Well, I suppose we live in different universes then ...

nope.

 

[wynn]

look at what makes you turn your nose to a different direction (or head in the same one)

You mean the direction different/same as others want me to?


I used to have a picture of Krishna on my desk. I still like it, but I don't like to look at it, because after a second or two, I become reminded of the bad experiences with the devotees, and then I am repulsed and my mind goes into a blank. Similar with chanting and scriptures.

 

[lightgigantic]

You mean the direction different/same as others want me to?


I used to have a picture of Krishna on my desk. I still like it, but I don't like to look at it, because after a second or two, I become reminded of the bad experiences with the devotees, and then I am repulsed and my mind goes into a blank. Similar with chanting and scriptures.

I mean what you want to.
It helps distinguish between an unpleasant thing and a pleasant thing in the vicinity of something unpleasant. (or alternatively, a pleasant thing and an unpleasant thing in the vicinity of something pleasant)

 

[wynn]

I mean what you want to.

I don't know, I find this really strange "what you want to" ...
What I want or don't want is completely irrelevant to how things really are, isn't it?
I should behave in line with the truth, "with how things really are", and what I want or not is eventually irrelevant in this, no?

It helps distinguish between an unpleasant thing and a pleasant thing in the vicinity of something unpleasant. (or alternatively, a pleasant thing and an unpleasant thing in the vicinity of something pleasant)

How do I know which is which?
Perhaps I am wrong, and something which I find to be unpleasant actually is pleasant, and vice versa?

 

[lightgigantic]

I don't know, I find this really strange "what you want to" ...
What I want or don't want is completely irrelevant to how things really are, isn't it?
I should behave in line with the truth, "with how things really are", and what I want or not is eventually irrelevant in this, no?

If you really don't find something pleasant, no amount of mental fidgeting will make it any other way

How do I know which is which?
Perhaps I am wrong, and something which I find to be unpleasant actually is pleasant, and vice versa?

whatever it may be, your attractions are somewhere at the moment.

 

[786]

Unlike these folks who're talking about 'be yourself', I think religion is important.

The way I approach this issue is from beginning.

First thing you have to do is believe that God exists (this thread assumes he does).

Next think you need to grasp is what is the reasons that God has to exist in other words why did you come to this conclusion in the first place- you would think that this would be the first step, but here you are simply reflecting on your first decision.

I think once you find the 'reasons' for God's exist, then you can proceed to asking the obvious question. If God exists and he made 'us' then did he create us for a purpose or not... Most people would answer 'yes' here.

If there is a purpose then the next question is did God just create you here on this this desert (ie. earth) and left nothing so that you may know that purpose? One has to understand that living your life would not be a purpose in itself because if that was it then you don't really need to know God. Also the question is about your 'inherent' purpose, that is why would God create humans? (not why you 'exist'- the questions are similar but not exactly the same)

By this time one would come to realize that religion is probably important.

Now your main question is how to find the 'true' one. All religions should be judged by its book. The hard part for most people is that they have pre-conceived believes (from parents?) and to judge the book without prejujudice is extremely difficult.

You would have to have an open mind and understand that what you 'like' may not be the best thing in the first place.

(So here I differ from others, its not about 'likes' or 'dislikes')

Also you must make some presumptions about if God exists, what is his definition? For example is he 'perfect', is he all 'powerful' and so on...

With these assumptions in mind you should try to understand each book in its own context- not the context of your beliefs- and then you must reason to see how what it teaches has an overall positive or negative effect.

I think the best way to do this is to first act like you don't believe in the book and find everything against it you can (yourself not some Anti-X (religion) site)- then act like you believe in the book and do your best with honesty to defend its teachings- if you fail then probably look at the next book... But here you have to careful of discerning 'objective' from 'subjective' criticism. Because if the problem is simply a 'like' issue and simply a point of view, then that should not be given the weight to dismiss a religion.

So I think you can take a pretty logical approach, but it is difficult.

Peace be unto you

 

[wynn]

If you really don't find something pleasant, no amount of mental fidgeting will make it any other way

I suppose so. I have spent most of my life deliberately trying to convince myself that this or that is pleasant, or unpleasant, in vain. I have become confused, and have no idea anymore what genuine like/dislike is like.
For me, it is now all strategy and calculation - mental fidgeting-, and the blandness that comes with it.

whatever it may be, your attractions are somewhere at the moment.

Yes, whatever they are, in a number of directions.