Also you must remember that not very many take college courses when they are in jail and many jails do not offer such programs. So you have to take that into consideration when accessing the facts.
What is the purpose of punishment?
- Thread starter StrangerInAStrangeLand
- Start date
Also you must remember that not very many take college courses when they are in jail and many jails do not offer such programs. So you have to take that into consideration when accessing the facts.
Interesting perspective .....until you realize that millions do all that education bullshit WITHOUT going to prison!
So basically you're almost "rewarding" people for the crimes they commit against society ......the very society that pays for their education while in prison. Something's just wrong with that, can't you see that?
Baron Max
The statistics are out there. Existing jail with useful job skills/education greatly reduces recidivism.
How is furnishing someone with a education a reward? If someone is already serving time and is just waiting for their release date why not allow them to get educated? What harm is that? Like I have said it really doesn't cost a whole hell of allot when you take courses on line. I heard that some colleges actually give courses for free to some prisons. Would it be better to educate someone while they are doing their time rather than just let that time be wasted on learning new tricks to use against citizens when they leave? I understand your concerns over paying for their education but if they don't come back into prison wouldn't that have been money well spent?
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I don't think so. People make "correlations" like that all the time, but there's not control group to show/prove anything. In other words, those same people who were "studied" might have become useful citizens even without the added skills/educational training. And there's no way to prove otherwise.
Baron Max
Added cost to the society. It already costs some $50,000 per year per prisoner, why add to that cost?
Yeah, but the problem is that they're learning both! And the education, perhps, will help them in their skills to harm the society even more when they get out.
Yes, it would. But nothing, no studies that I've ever seen suggest that what you say is true. Oh, sure, correlations, but there's never any control group to show or prove anything. Those same people might have become nice guys even without that added expense.
Baron Max
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Yes, but throughout history one of the primary goals of punishment was revenge. That is certainly the only rationale for capital punishment. Also, governments use punishment as a means for displaying their authority. Parents do that too, as well as a way of relieving frustration.
Punishment is a complicated issue.
Society has the rights that the people who run it seize or are granted; it's not a question of abstract philosophy.
Nonetheless, in a successful civilization, the right is granted to change "who or what a person is" by at least enough to prevent him from damaging civilization. The biggest damage is caused by loss of the fragile trust between total strangers. If people can't give each other a minimal level of trust, they divert too much of their effort and other resources into protecting themselves from each other, and the surplus productivity that drives civilization will vanish.
Sure, most societies go way beyond that. But in the perfect libertarian model, the purpose of the state is only to ensure that the citizens do not cause the decline of civilization. This means that they cannot be allowed to initiate force or fraud against one another.
If "who or what a person is" is not someone who can live by those rules, he is free to leave and find a less-civilized community where he will be welcome. In the old days of course he could just go live by his wits and hunting skills on the frontier. I think the loss of the frontier and the safety valve it represented is one of the biggest problems with modern civilization. Very few people actually took that option, but its availability made them stop and soberly evaluate whether they'd really like to live in a place with no rules except Mother Nature.
Sure, but there are a lot of ppl who can't afford higher education and never get the chance to get it. Do they have to land themselves in jail to have it paid for them? I am sure they would also like to better themselves and get a better job.
I am a high school drop out. What if I want to better myself? It will cost me thousands of dollars, money I need to save for my own kids education in the future. Do you know how many students have student loans that don't get paid off until their late 20's-30's. Why do they have to work their asses off to pay back all that money with interest because they wanted to be a better person?
So, ....your answer is for the government to lie to the public, to hide convicted criminals from the public? And just how do you think the public would feel/think if that "hidden" ex-con pulls another crime against them?
And that "rehab" ain't worked so well on those misfits. And worse, there's more and more of those misfits.
Baron Max
No different than they do now. In fact i would bet that with such a system in place the chances of a ex-con reoffending are pretty much nil in most cases. Why would they when they can live more normal lives. Most thefts are crimes of desperation after all. If the ex-con can get and hold a job they won;t be desperate.
Meanwhile our current model of society and prisoner reform has people who made one mistake condemned to a life of poverty and desperation. Once you're and ex-con you are excluded from hundreds of careers that likely had nothing to do with you conviction. Getting hired is nearly impossible and when you are 9/10ths of the time you have to pay kickbacks. It's no wonder more and more people are re-offending in such conditions.
Read above for clarifications on why.
See, I disagree. I think some people are just plain born to be criminals! And I base that on the fact that most people aren't criminals ...most people follow the laws as best they can ...even those in desperate situations.
I disagree. I think criminals are born with the propensity to do evil. It's in their blood. There are gazillions of people in poverty and desperate situations, but they don't steal or commit robberies. ONLY those who have been born evil do it ...and mostly because they want to, not because they're pushed into it by desperation or poverty. That's just an excuse that liberal doo-gooders use to get criminals lighter sentences!
Baron Max
I thought that they try and help ex-cons get a job and back into society when they leave jail. Is that only in the movies?
Anyway how many of them do get a job, probably something menial maybe minimum wage and get bored. How many of them get bored with working their asses off for crappy money and start thinking about how they can make a whole lot of money a lot faster. How many of them still hang around the same ppl, criminals, delinquents that they did before they got in jail. How many of them in a matter of time will just fall back into the same routine again. Maybe it might start off slow with a buddy asking them to sell drugs or whatever, and then it grows into something that lands them in jail again and they cycle just continues. I think that some ppl are just prone to taking the wrong road in life, even if they are offered something better.
Some will actually learn a lesson and try and stay clean and out of trouble but what percentage is higher?
Some people are born with the predisposition towards taking the easy route. However having worked with many people when coming fresh out of jail and prison. I would say only one in fifty of them are in that catagory. Most were desperate, addicted, or just plain had a stupid moment. They made their mistake and now want nothing more to do with anything even remotely illegal. Just one problem, society isn;t done crushing the life out of them. They served their time, took their punishment and made amends. As society we should look to these people as no different than the majority of law abdiing citizens. I'm not saying make them bank manager, or anything, but most jobs should be left open to such individuals. They shouldn't be run out of neighborhoods. Their debt is paid their slate should be wiped clean.
Now of course I am not speaking of violent offenders or habitual criminals. Merely the first timers who made a simple mistake. And yes they might have thought it through and wanted to do it, but that is how most mistakes are made.
Okay so you use the fact that there are some people out there that are inherently badnews to condemn the rest. You want to punish everyone for what only a tiny fraction do. Some 17 year kid who snatches cash out of an open till is the same as a 34 years ex-con holding a .357 to the head of the cashier? Is that how things work in Buffalo world?
Look I am not looking for lighter sentences. What I am looking for is a fair shake so we do not see nearly as many reoffenders. I want first time ex-cons to have their slate wiped clean as far as employment and education goes. Why not do such a simple thing? After all by the laws of our land they have basically paid the penalty.
Some places try, but they are mostly underfunded, understaffed or completely corrupt. Ex-con are the silent victoims becuase if they complain they end up being tossed back into the prisons.
Well, i will admit there are some people just prone to making the same stupid choices over and over again. However we as a society have got to stop making those choices as attractive as they are. Minimum wage is not enough to support even a single person, even if they go on a Ramen diet. Housing is a pain in the ass to get as an ex-con and if you do find some all you neighbors will be ex-cons as well. Increasing your chance of the wrong element. Everyone treats an ex-con as if the lowest of scum. All of this can have even a sane moral person considerign a bank heist or two.
Most learn the lesson and try like hell to stay out of prison. However Society takes away all the tools needed for the job.
Yeah, but you're forgetting or ignoring that gazillions of others, in the same situations, DID NOT make those "mistakes". To me, that puts a major kink in your ideals of ...well, feeling sorry for the criminals.
But, see, in doing so, you're trying to put convict back into the same situation that gazillions of others are still in ....even tho' all those others did NOT commit any crimes at all. How can you see that as fair? Most don't commit crimes, yet you're showing them that if they do they might get lucky and not get caught. Or even if they do, they'll just be shuffled right back into society as if nothing happened!
In your mamby-pamby world, it seems that crime just MIGHT pay off, huh?
Baron Max