What is the endgame in Gaza?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
That's how Hamas got elected - rejection of a government that was unable to bring even hope of a normal way of life.spidergoat said:
That's what, three or four such governments in a row, and the Israelis are still at it? Off hand, it appears the constant here is the Israeli government and behavior.
I don't think anyone disputes Hamas' election. The world simply doesn't support it.
Most folks in the world don't care about the Israelis or Palestinians. Passions only tend to run high amongst the chronically obsessed.
Watch away.
The irony is that Hamas can stop that result at any time.
Do you truly believe that? have you looked at the history of the conflict? Israel has been violent and expansionistic long before hamas was on the horizon.
So much for bringing democracy to the masses, eh? And the US or Israel is not the world.
You'd be surprised how many people in the world are chronically obsessed with the Palestinians. Even the Americans are building a 60 feet steel wall costing 32 million dollars to box them into giving up their freedom and self determination. Thats one step ahead of the wooden dam the German built to flood the sewers in Warsaw. And that is chronically obsessed.
I am
Like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. Surrender and die. Or we'll be forced to take care of the Jewish problem
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It is what it is. If Hamas stays the course then they might be erradicated.
So hamas is to blame for behavior that predates them in your mind? No wonder peace hasn't been acheived with this kind of masterful logic in play
Democracy simply makes the process fair. It doesn't make the decisions good.
You mean the wall that Egypt wants to stop Hamas' missile smuggling? Right now the international community supports Fatah and will eventually reverse any non-wartime expansion into the West Bank. Notice the difference between how the world treats Fatah and Hamas and why that is happening.
I am
Good. The next step is to understand who has the power to change it and why.
[/QUOTE]Like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. Surrender and die. Or we'll be forced to take care of the Jewish problem
Of course... "stop attacking and we'll stop too" is sooo the equivalent of warsaw.
Any entity that has power and exercises it is the one to blame for the results (both positive and negative). Fatah seems to be getting it right.
Feast On the Weary, Excuse the Gluttons
Reminds me of a song.
Or, maybe:
"Most folks in the world" don't care about a lot of things, but that they do not care in no way makes those things right. Thus, they must reinforce their apathy with lies, each time what they don't care about intrudes on their crippled consciences.
Crunchy Cat said:
Reminds me of a song.
If you weary of the pain,
The pain will weary of you, too.
If you weary of the days,
The days will weary of you, too.
But if you weary of me,
I will weary of you, too.
I've seen the face of God,
And he hates me with disinterest.
Just like all the rest;
That hateful face of God
Is just like all the rest.
That evil face of God hates me like the rest.
(Floater, "Weary")
The pain will weary of you, too.
If you weary of the days,
The days will weary of you, too.
But if you weary of me,
I will weary of you, too.
I've seen the face of God,
And he hates me with disinterest.
Just like all the rest;
That hateful face of God
Is just like all the rest.
That evil face of God hates me like the rest.
(Floater, "Weary")
Or, maybe:
"Take a side," you say, "It's black and gray."
And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play.
"We are one," you say, but who are you?
You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown,
And this beast must go on and on and on;
Nobody gives a damn.
Feast on me, and take your fill;
And when I finish giving, go and find someone who will.
Am I talking a bit too loud?
Am I acting a bit too proud?
Well, it's always something,
Then I'm gone away—
And you're all starving.
(Floater, "The Feast")
And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play.
"We are one," you say, but who are you?
You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown,
And this beast must go on and on and on;
Nobody gives a damn.
Feast on me, and take your fill;
And when I finish giving, go and find someone who will.
Am I talking a bit too loud?
Am I acting a bit too proud?
Well, it's always something,
Then I'm gone away—
And you're all starving.
(Floater, "The Feast")
"Most folks in the world" don't care about a lot of things, but that they do not care in no way makes those things right. Thus, they must reinforce their apathy with lies, each time what they don't care about intrudes on their crippled consciences.
On the one hand, it's definitely the case that the political horizons of the parties to the conflict is shorter than the conflict itself, and that this has been the case for a long time, and that this is a serious factor in maintenance of the conflict.
On the other hand, this makes the supposition of an "endgame" here doubly bizarre. There is no prospect of any kind of an "endgame" anywhere in sight, so the presumption that one exists seems to represent a sort of magical thinking, a craving for resolution or drama of some type.
The prolonged denial of which sometimes finally snaps people out of their obsession with the conflict. When you've invested yourself in it as a fantasy theater, you reach a point where your gratification demands that the plot advance in some way. When it doesn't do that, the obsessed gradually become bored and disappointed, the conflict having lost its psychodramatic value.
Don't forget Japan, Australia and New Zealand. Which adds up to, what, about 1 billion people? Egypt doesn't seem to take very kindly to Hamas either...
Also, where did anyone dispute that Hamas was elected? Not that "most transparent election in the Middle East" means much, or that one can "freely" elect an armed terror group, but anywa...
Floater always brings a smile to my face
.Of course. It doesn't make them wrong either. Right and wrong aren't objectively real.
A better way (IMO) to view conflict and reactions to it is to remove as much of the subjectivness as possible. Conflict will always happen simply because of a fundamental rule of physics. What isn't forbidden by reality will happen. As humans we have evolved a particular bias that aids our survival as a cooperative species. We judge each other based on a gradient of threat (mean-ness) and value but only when there is meaningful interaction of some kind. As the Israeli / Palestinian conflict doesn't affect most of the world, there is simply no motivation to care about it... there is no meaningful stimulus to evoke a reaction.
Or before, look at how "the world" treated Fatah - this being the "world" perception of it: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/Fatah.htmlcrunchy said:
When Fatah had power, the Israelis treated the Palestinians as terrorists. When the PLO had power, the Israelis treated the Palestinians as terrorists. The Israelis have treated every Palestinian governing body as a terrorist organization. The Israelis have not modified their behavior toward the Palestinians in any way, regardless of who is ostensibly governing them.
The constant here is the continuing and cumulative abuse of the Palestinians by the Israelis, as they continue to expand the Israeli state into formerly Palestinian territory and usurp water and other resources from the Palestinians. The idea that Hamas is in control of this Israeli behavior, that any Palestinian governing body can mollify Israel or deflect the Israelis from their chosen course of action, by making agreements or something, is bizarre.
Take all the land, I assume.
? Last I checked, Fatah still had power. Just not in Gaza.
That's almost true. They don't presently treat Fatah as terrorists.
That part is bad and the international community will eventually press Israel to undo that. At the same time the Israelis did give back Gaza even though that turned into a big cluster fuck for 'em.
Israel has made it very clear that stopping rocket fire will prevent any aggression from them. I suspect the international community would enforce that promise as well.