What is "Rape Culture"?

[tali89]

1) I was contrasting the visibility of the rape culture you belong to with the invisibility of the robbery culture you do not belong to.

You previously claimed that "You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.", but now you're claiming that theft cultures are invisible. In an effort to try and rationalize away one contradiction, you've made yet another one.

2) Even rewriting to match your misreading: No, that's not a reasonable assumption.Both of my claims would be standard, ordinary observations under that reading, without contradiction.

Explain how someone outside of a supposed rape culture, who by your own admission does not see a number of elements of that culture, can easily identify that society as possessing a rape culture.

You are in error in claiming your time points showed innocuous greetings and comments,

So you're finally acknowledging that I never claimed that all of the behavior in the aforementioned video constituted innocuous greetings and comments? It's nice to know that you're capable of ceasing your misrepresentations when corrected (multiple) times.

Now, can you explain how the following are not innocuous greetings and comments? Can you explain what words or phrases carry a sexual connotation?

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

You also need to explain how my personal views are indicative of what millions of other people in my society believe. This must be the fourth time I've requested you address this, and you continue to dodge the issue. Shall I assume that you are conceding that you can't make valid assumptions about the societal beliefs by extrapolating from one individual?

By the way, you still have to adequately address the following:

- That I live in a rape culture.

- That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

- That I'm lying when I claimed I haven't heard anyone in my culture tell a rape joke, and explain how your assertion is relevant to me eating hamburgers.

- Clarify who is qualified to identify a rape culture, when you have claimed that people both within and outside of a rape culture may have trouble identifying it as such.

- You need to explain why the prevalence of rape is irrelevant when attempting to determine whether a rape culture exists, and why you claimed I was the only one discussing these statistics when it was another poster who posted them to fuel discussion of how common rape is in the United States.

- You need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

- You need to demonstrate that theft is taken more seriously than rape by the police, and that convicted thieves are given longer convictions than rapists.

- You need to demonstrate that convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals.

 

[Spellbound]

Now, can you explain how the following are not innocuous greetings and comments? Can you explain what words or phrases carry a sexual connotation?

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

Frustration and failure leads to forcible pursuit.

"What's up miss?" can be perceived as contumacious. "How are you doing?" as unoriginal and simple minded. "Have a nice evening" as polite. "How are you doing this morning?" as nice enough. "How are you doing today?" with a big smile shows confidence but is still too passive.

Your turn to comment on the nature of the following expressions:

1. "You look like you could be miss America beauty pageant winner of the year."

2. "Good day mi lady".

3."If you are free sometime I would like to have lunch or a coffee with you".

4. "I think we would be good together".

5. "I would like a chance for us to get to know each other better".

6. Most important: make eye contact and smile (without necessarily showing teeth).

 

[milkweed]

 

[Secular Sanity]

That was hilarious, but if the roles were reversed, not so much. Women slapping men is even glamorized. Go figure.

Is this protection or mate guarding? Is there a difference?

 

[iceaura]

You previously claimed that "You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.", but now you're claiming that theft cultures are invisible.

No, I'm not. I'm claiming that such cultures actually present are visible to outsiders who encounter them, and cultures not present are not visible to outsiders. I regard this as unremarkable, and the fact that you are going to such extraordinary lengths to deny the visibility of your rape culture symptomatic. There are only four ways of taking my combination of claims there, and you have now posted all three possible mistakings in the face of three repetitions and expansions of the plain reading. You are working hard at this. Why?

Explain how someone outside of a supposed rape culture, who by your own admission does not see a number of elements of that culture, can easily identify that society as possessing a rape culture.

By observing any of the numerous and flagrant other elements of such a culture - such as have been illustrated with specific examples of politician's jokes, documentary videos, etc, when I and several other people here explained that to you in the first place. And the second place. And the third place. And so forth.

So you're finally acknowledging that I never claimed that all of the behavior in the aforementioned video constituted innocuous greetings and comments?

I am still claiming, as always, that you were referring to the entire video, and illustrating your perception of normality in what you saw in it. That's because you were. The obliviousness with which you selected incidents of harassment to illustrate your claims of normality and innocuousness in that video was just the cherry on top.

You also need to explain how my personal views are indicative of what millions of other people in my society believe.

Not to you, or anyone else you are addressing here. They are exemplary, illustrative, btw - not indicative.

By the way, you still have to adequately address the following:

Still false. See the post you just quoted, immediately prior to your reply, for example.

You guys can spin up an imaginary world out of these misrepresentations and so forth, but you can't actually persuade anyone that they have posted what they have not, or live in a world they do not live in which lacks events and implications they encounter routinely.

You can't even get your audience to overlook the little "why?" details of your fantasy spinups - that Bill Burr did not get punched in the face by his girlfriend, in that little vignette, for example, so what's up with the headline?

Meanwhile: It doesn't matter in the least what exactly you get screwed up in your attempts to create these alternative realities, say whether Bill Burr got punched in the face by his girlfriend in a story about how he got punched in the face by his girlfriend, or any such detail (creating believable fictional worlds is difficult ) - he doesn't live under the continual and culturally tolerated threat of rape by any woman in his vicinity, and our world would be completely different if he did.

 

[milkweed]

 

[Tiassa]

You are working hard at this. Why?

Because you're talking about Tali instead of the issue. That is to say, you're talking about anything but the issue, and the easy gratification Tali gets from being the focus of attention is just icing.

Or, you know, I don't know, maybe I've got that backwards; like this is about egocentrism, and the convenient result of defending rape culture is the sticky glaze on the well-punched donut.

But seriously, it really is about discussing anything but the topic.

 

[birch]

The lack of distinction as to whether to commit a simple innocuous greeting is okay, good/bad manners, distractive, harassment or ruse is dependent on the situation and its effects.

Even in the video minus the overt stalking/harassment/inappropriate comments, was it okay for someone to say a simple, 'hello, how are you?' or along those lines? Yes, of course. It doesn't matter if its not well-recieved, or annoying under the circumstances.

However, that's not necessarily an indication of good manners. This is where tali ignores or won't distinct.

Greetings are committed (good manners) when its appropriate and non-intrusive or distractive to the other. When its not, its not good manners but can be opportunism.
Is it still okay to say what you want? This is what tali is getting at but without realizing even the seemingly innocuous isn't always so. Of course, people don't get hauled off to jail for hypocritical or deceptive thoughts, motivation, or speech or every minor faux pas. The determination of conduct with invisible lines of boundaries falls on the individual. So yes, under tali's premise, it's okay objectively. As long as they don't touch her, its fine. Consider the letter of the law. But trying to justify everything within this parameter as being innocent, good or even acceptable is where tali strokes a broad brush.

Of course, trying to 'distract' (rude and invasive) someone (revealed by context) is a finer point tali deems unimportant, unrecognised or besides the point. After all, its not illegal.

When someone commits a greeting its with an expectation that the other is obligated to recognize the other and return the favor. Can you imagine the number of times, she would have to stop or speak to these people on her way? Thats an imposition and wily people know that and try to elicit this 'obligation' of good manners to gain another's personal attention. These are antics.

This is not some lazy afternoon stroll in the park where you occasionally run into another couple or person and you know its no imposition for a friendly greeting. This is not some casual Sunday going to the grocers and you give a nod or hello to a random person occasionally you pass by. This is not Christmas eve where its greetings of peace and goodwill unto humanity all around to fellow strangers if you happen to be out etc.

If you are trying to greet when others are obviously busy or don't want to be bothered, that's merely a ruse to gain their attention irrespective of them.

After all, some just said hello as someone whizzes by. Tali may recognize it merely as silly or be completely stumped as to why.

Tali won't recognize that even greetings from strange men can have sexual undertones or inherent motivations which can be very irksome/bothersome/invasive generally for the recipient, if the perpetrator is not able or won't discern how well received it would be. Can you blame them for trying? No, as long as you realize the risks of rejection or even hostility.

Of course, there are other scenarios where total strangers may try to speak or solicit. A panhandler may try to stop someone and it could be inconvenient or benign depending on the situation.

Overall, it would be crazy to restrict expression but its just as crazy to believe its all aboveboard even with shows of it too. People can ne manipulative and sly too

 

[birch]

You also have to consider that males tend to have more sexist and non-platonic attitudes toward women in general. To many men and especially males of previous generations, even any attention paid or basic respect and friendliness from a female is often construed as romantic or sexual interest. They view friendliness from a female as submission or openness. It doesnt even matter if they know its just common friendliness or platonic, they just hone in as vulnerability even consciously twisting it as more. I've noticed mostly men do this because sexist males view as an object and what she thinks, means, feels or intends is not respected. This is a 'rapist' mindframe. Vulnerability is okay to be exploited and it will be justified that she wants it by ego. This is in part because that's the only interest they have or that's the only reason they pay females (friendliness or respect) any real mind. Its particularly troubling and even weird that males can view (especially consistent) friendliness in females as weakness or invitation to exploitation. All I can figure is the emotional more caring aspect that women exhibit that some men take as personal interest or invitation toward intimacy. Or the fact it comes from a woman who is more fragile than him and can't beat the living sh@t out of him. Therefore, he can intentionally misconstrue or believe whatever he wants even if its disrespectful or objectifying without any threat of serious backlash from the weaker sex.

The more I linger on it, the more I realize it is disturbing how men can so extremely objectify and denigrate women. They can even have contempt for her as a person or have no regard and still want to use sexually. That's pretty far-out disgusting and indicates some serious issues in how they define themselves as men and how they define women. Not all men but still prevalent enough that its not rare.

I remember talking to this older male who watched a woman around his age walk past looking at her with disgust and contempt, he mockingly and jeeringly commented to me 'you know, you're going to end up like that one day too'. Why? He felt entitled to have a younger female though he was old and ugly as well as I wouldn't be interested either. Why do men feel entitled to what they are not? Pretty obscene and peculiarly erroneous as well as deluded. He's not better, its the ego.

Its actually pretty stupid, disgusting and their innate sense of entitlement contributes even more to the defect of being notoriously moronic reading females, seeing only what they want to see. Of course, she is friendly or showing me respect because I'm so desirable so says my ego.

 

[billvon]

That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

They would be, if they were as pervasive as rape jokes.

- Clarify who is qualified to identify a rape culture, when you have claimed that people both within and outside of a rape culture may have trouble identifying it as such.

Absolutely, people have trouble identifying such a culture. In 1950's era Georgia, many people claimed that racism was not a part of their culture. They let coloreds into stores; gave them their own schools, even gave them their own bathrooms! They had the same rights as whites - blacks were allowed to marry blacks, just like whites were allowed to marry whites. How dare northerners claim that they had a culture of racism! After all, there were only a few lynchings, and not everyone was in the KKK.

- You need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

Google "catholic church sex scandal."

You need to demonstrate that convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals.

================================
Pennsylvania woman blamed for her own rape in state response to lawsuit
By Sara Ganim, CNN

Updated 10:51 AM ET, Thu September 25, 2014

Story highlights

• Omar Best, a convicted rapist, was allowed close contact with typist at prison
• Typist, 24, complained about unsupervised access
• Best eventually raped typist and was convicted; the typist filed a federal suit
• "It's an attempt to embarrass the victim," victim's lawyer says of state response to federal suit

The Pennsylvania attorney general's office is blaming a former state prison clerk for her own rape, in response to a federal lawsuit the woman filed.

The 24-year-old typist was working at the state prison at Rockview in Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, when she was attacked in 2013. She was choked unconscious and raped for 27 minutes by inmate Omar Best, who had been convicted three times previously of sex-related crimes, and then been transferred from a different state prison for assaulting a female assistant there.

"Despite this knowledge, defendants ... still allowed Omar Best to have unsupervised access to the offices of female employees," according to the lawsuit, which also blames the state for the rape.
===============================

 

[Tiassa]

​

re: On innocuous greetings​

It is a part of myself↗ I prefer not be seen in public―

Think of it this way, it's the reason why it took me so long to pick up on why Steinem is correct about pornography. Because that is supposed to be me, so it can't be bad.​

‡​

​

No, really, if I say I'd rather be a woman, just what does that mean? What, in this context, is womanhood?​

Because it sure as hell ain't all this.​

That is to say, what attracts me to the idea of actually being a woman is, in fact, twisted jealousy. And when I think about what I envy, I seriously must be crazy. Why in the world would anybody make that trade?​

―but it does beg a question:

• Just how the fuck much do I have to tart it up in order that men should offer me such innocuous greetings?​

 

[tali89]

tali89: You previously claimed that "You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.", but now you're claiming that theft cultures are invisible.

iceaura: No, I'm not.

Looks like I need to quote your own words back to you:

"You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.",

"1) I was contrasting the visibility of the rape culture you belong to with the invisibility of the robbery culture you do not belong to."

Emphasis mine.

So which is it? Are theft cultures easy to recognize by people who don't belong to them, or are they invisible to people who don't belong to them? At this point I think it might be a good idea for you to take a break from sciforums so that you can figure out exactly what you are contending in regards to this issue.

I'm claiming that such cultures actually present are visible to outsiders who encounter them

And as I pointed out earlier, no rape culture appears to be visible to me in the U.S, despite my being an outsider. Therefore by your own logic a rape culture doesn't exist in the U.S. Your response to this natural progression of your logic was essentially Nuh-uh.

tali said:
So you're finally acknowledging that I never claimed that all of the behavior in the aforementioned video constituted innocuous greetings and comments?
I am still claiming, as always, that you were referring to the entire video,

Yet in your previous post you claimed that the specific examples I cited from the video as being innocuous greetings were actually harassment, which means you were implicitly acknowledging I was not discussing every incident in the video. Now you're demonstrating double-think by reverting back to misrepresenting me as claiming that *every* comment made by a man in that video were innocuous greetings. It's this chopping and changing on your behalf that makes your attempts to misrepresent my views quite transparent.

tali said:
You also need to explain how my personal views are indicative of what millions of other people in my society believe.

iceaura: Not to you, or anyone else you are addressing here.

Well, it is a rule on sciforums that posters support their claims with evidence, although I know that this rule is selectively applied by the moderators. Even so, it's to your benefit to support your speculation rather than continually evade the issue, as it's your credibility that suffers at the end of the day.

So once again, how can a sample size of 1 be used to make valid statistical inferences about millions of people?

By the way, you still need to explain how the following comments from the video constitute sexual harassment:

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

I won't repeat the list of your other claims that you have yet to support, since I think you've got enough on your plate as it is. There's no need for me to apply too much pressure, since your house of cards is already tumbling down.

I'll also pause here to note something for the audience. Remember when I was banned for 3 days, and a number of left-wingers took that us an opportunity to dissect and misrepresent my posts? They piled on and took my posts apart almost sentence by sentence while I couldn't respond. Now that I'm back, look at how the situation has reversed. James R is missing in action, Bells is struggling to justify her comparison of women to children, iceaura seems to be straining under his numerous internal contradictions, and Tiassa has completely chickened out of supporting his suppositions, instead posting liberal opinion pieces which coincide with his own views. When left-wingers receive just a fraction of the heat they give to the opposition, they scatter like geese.

 

[Bells]

Hmmm? I'm not the one comparing women to children. You are. I asked you a very simple request, for your ex-boyfriend to stand on the street and utter those very comments you found so innocent to only men or children. And to see how he goes. Instead of addressing the issue, you seem to again go off on a tangent and troll. No surprises there. That is how you operate on this site.

Secondly, it is clear you have a reading comprehension because you seem to now be denying your own words and changing their narrative. Again, no surprises there, this is what we expect from you.

And thirdly, what audience are you talking to? The one in your head?

 

[wellwisher]

The female perception of a rape culture is due to women being less virtuous. Men are acting like they have always acted to less than virtuous women, just now there are more of these women than even before.

If you have two women at a party ,who don't like each other, they will often pretend to be nice to each other, but will gossip behind each others back. This female tendency is the basis for PC. PC is all about pretending to be nice public, but do the opposite in private. This is why PC seems to make the problem worse; fake. Natural men, not feminized men, tend to be more linear. If a male does not like someone, they will not pretend. This is why men often end up fighting.

The difference may have to do with natural male and female roles. The female as mother often needs to maintain an emotional ambiance for her children and family even if she is not feeling well; unconditional love.

The male is traditionally the protector and provider. To do this he needs consistent data, and not data that can be variable based on pretending and making people feel good. If a storm is coming, the male can't pretend this is OK, but rather he needs hard data so he can face this in a way to protect.

In modern times, women behave more and more like the hookers and ho's of the past. Birth control and abortion starts at 13 and makeup is bought by the pound. These women want the men to use the female two face, and pretend this does not impact them. But men are being consistent with needing consistent data so they react like men have always reacted to hookers.

If a male claims a women induces his actions, she will not accept any responsibility because she assumes a feminine male will pretend this is normal to her face and only have desire when she is not there. Men don't work that way, unless fully feminized. The perception of the rape culture appear to reflect the young men leaving the role of the feminine male. The pendulum is moving the other way. If women wish to be treated with respect this will not be because of PC rules of two face, but needs to be based on cause and effect; virtuous.

 

[Bowser]

The female perception of a rape culture is due to women being less virtuous. Men are acting like they have always acted to less than virtuous women, just now there are more of these women than even before.

If women wish to be treated with respect this will not be because of PC rules of two face, but needs to be based on cause and effect; virtuous.

I think women are the product of their environment. Clothing, makeup, and sexual promiscuity are all touted as virtuous in Western society. Maybe we are trying to apply a double standard for both men and women.

 

[billvon]

I think women are the product of their environment. Clothing, makeup, and sexual promiscuity are all touted as virtuous in Western society.

Clothing and makeup - yes, there is a heavy societal component in that.
Sexual promiscuity - given the popular portrayal of "the slut" in comedy, popular jokes and media, I'd have to disagree. Our society currently disparages excessive sexual promiscuity AND complete abstinence. Currently popular media considers women who are choosy, but who are willing to have sex occasionally before marriage, as the "norm."

 

[Beer w/Straw]

The female perception of a rape culture is due to women being less virtuous. Men are acting like they have always acted to less than virtuous women, just now there are more of these women than even before.

If you have two women at a party ,who don't like each other, they will often pretend to be nice to each other, but will gossip behind each others back. This female tendency is the basis for PC. PC is all about pretending to be nice public, but do the opposite in private. This is why PC seems to make the problem worse; fake. Natural men, not feminized men, tend to be more linear. If a male does not like someone, they will not pretend. This is why men often end up fighting.

The difference may have to do with natural male and female roles. The female as mother often needs to maintain an emotional ambiance for her children and family even if she is not feeling well; unconditional love.

The male is traditionally the protector and provider. To do this he needs consistent data, and not data that can be variable based on pretending and making people feel good. If a storm is coming, the male can't pretend this is OK, but rather he needs hard data so he can face this in a way to protect.

In modern times, women behave more and more like the hookers and ho's of the past. Birth control and abortion starts at 13 and makeup is bought by the pound. These women want the men to use the female two face, and pretend this does not impact them. But men are being consistent with needing consistent data so they react like men have always reacted to hookers.

If a male claims a women induces his actions, she will not accept any responsibility because she assumes a feminine male will pretend this is normal to her face and only have desire when she is not there. Men don't work that way, unless fully feminized. The perception of the rape culture appear to reflect the young men leaving the role of the feminine male. The pendulum is moving the other way. If women wish to be treated with respect this will not be because of PC rules of two face, but needs to be based on cause and effect; virtuous.

Taliban?

 

[Bowser]

Clothing and makeup - yes, there is a heavy societal component in that.
Sexual promiscuity - given the popular portrayal of "the slut" in comedy, popular jokes and media, I'd have to disagree. Our society currently disparages excessive sexual promiscuity AND complete abstinence. Currently popular media considers women who are choosy, but who are willing to have sex occasionally before marriage, as the "norm."

There are limits on what women can buy in clothing, but I think it is also promoted. Either way, it's my understanding that women dress for themselves, not others. They wear that which makes them feel good about themselves; whereas for men, for many, it doesn't matter. As for sexuality, eh, I suppose that's arguable. With the advent of twirking, having learned from my daughter's experience at school dances, sex might be, if it hasn't already become, a trivial matter.

 

[Tiassa]

There are limits on what women can buy in clothing, but I think it is also promoted.

"Promoted" is an understatement.

Either way, it's my understanding that women dress for themselves, not others.

Your understanding of women is observably deficient.

They wear that which makes them feel good about themselves; whereas for men, for many, it doesn't matter

Cha!

No, really, man, I think of the adjusters and lawyers at the insurance company I used to work for; I guess the lot of them that would rather just wear khakis and comfortable shoes instead of heels, hose, and an overpriced skirt were just lying.

With the advent of twirking, having learned from my daughter's experience at school dances, sex might be, if it hasn't already become, a trivial matter.

When I was a kid they said that about Madonna and the idea of enjoying womanhood.

When my father was a child, they still said that about the idea that women had a say in their own sex lives.

Virginia Republicans occasionally have to deal with their "Black problem", a carpetbagger named Dick Black, who moves around the state running for office on a generally conservative platform that is also explicitly pro-rape. So here's an idea for you: A prosecutor who argues it is impossible to rape your own wife, and that there are circumstances and settings in which a woman should expect to be raped―this latter including professional employment by the public trust.

Yes, really.

In Colorado, they very nearly sent a rape abettor to the U.S. Senate in 2010. But Ken Buck lost by a very narrow margin, so in 2014 they went with a more moderate version of misogyny―Of course I don't support that horrible bill that I cosponsored and refuse to take my name off, what do you mean support the bill?―when they sent Cory Gardner to the U.S. Senate. The good people of Colorado Four replaced Mr. Gardner by sending Mr. Buck, the rape abettor, to the House of Representatives.

So understand, Bowser, you're just the latest iteration of hatred.

At some point you need to comprehend that your "understanding" of women is incorrect, and devastatingly inadequate.

Do you acknowledge that women are human beings and have human rights, full stop?

Have you looked your daughter in the eye and proudly told her you refuse to acknowledge her humanity and human rights?

Why not?

 

[birch]

The perception of the rape culture appear to reflect the young men leaving the role of the feminine male. The pendulum is moving the other way. If women wish to be treated with respect this will not be because of PC rules of two face, but needs to be based on cause and effect; virtuous.

Everything and I mean, everything about your post was completely nonsensical and even delirious but especially this part.

Absolute bullshit. The only excuse a man needs is the female is visible and that she obviously has female assets. That woman in the video, for example, wasn't doing anything to draw attention, be two-faced (wtf? do you mean deception?), or being a hooker.

Men have mistreated, raped and denigrated women no matter what they did or didnt do, two-faced (you mean like male politics jackass?), covered from head to toe, virtuous or not etc.

In FACT, even more flagrantly, brutally and violently in the past where they had more power over women. Virtue has nothing to do with it and men who are drunk with power or abuse it could care less if they compromise or destroy anothers virtue. Or do you think abducting and forcing yourself on virgins is an indication of her lack of virtue? or literally enslaving women (even young children) and forcing them into prostitution. There 'virtue', personality, character, morals, personality, iq/eq, favorite color, what they wanted or not was not taken into account or mattered. Men had the power and they decided how a woman was going to be used and treated based on their wants/needs.

Jackass, a woman doesn't need to or should have to prove herself to you or any man (virtue?) to be respected as a human being and not be violated just as men don't need to prove their 'virtue' even if they happen to have no 'virtue' themselves.

Your hypocrisy that women must be virtuous as to be judged by men leaves men out of this dynamic and responsibility. Its okay for men to be manwhores or scum of the earth. Lmao