What is Hell

[Mosheh Thezion]

Oxygen:... it is just as theoretical that the energy could reincarnate into a cow...
but such would literally be the constant recycling of souls...
and as such.... as a universal process is not an effective means of collecting volumes of good high quality soul jewels for Gods collection...

although.. if reincarnation was a true process, then such a process would likely result in the development of much higher quality souls... yet the harvests would be few and yield little... and such would be a waste of the universe...

for as such... the specific individual memories of the people per lifetime have less meaning... and less value... which as a mindset, allows people to spend life meditating on nothingness when they could be colonising the moon.



Godless:
the evidense..



the bible.. my interpretation based on evidense.



unification....


-MT

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

*************
M*W: Again, why must a force of energy have a name. It already has a name -- Energy. Why not simply call it that?

I see. You're a scientist. hmmmm... If you were a scientist, you'd know there is no word called "supposively."

Your immaturity is showing.

No.. what is showing is my awful grammer.. as i am self taught, mostly.

-MT

 

[Godless]

That's not evidence that's a hypothesis formulated on the assumption that a big bang happened. Wrong kiddo to try and pull this one over.

I don't adhire to the BB theory.

The only test of scientific truth is how well a theory corresponds to the world we observe. Does it predict things that we can then see? Or do our observations of nature show things that a theory says are impossible? No matter how well liked a theory may be, if observation contradicts it, then it must be rejected. For science to be useful, it must provide an increasingly true and deep description of nature, not a prescription of what nature must be.

In the past four years crucial observations have flatly contradicted the assumptions and predictions of the Big Bang. Because the Big Bang supposedly occurred only about twenty billion years ago, nothing in the cosmos can be older than this. Yet in 1986 astronomers discovered that galaxies compose huge agglomerations a billion light-years across; such mammoth clustering of matter must have taken a hundred billion years to form. Just as early geological theory, which sought to compress the earth's history into a biblical few thousand years crumbled when confronted with the aeons needed to build up a mountain range, so the concept of a Big Bang is undetermined by the existence of these vast and ancient superclusters of galaxies.

click

Furthermore the bible is the wrong book to bring as some kind of ontological proof of our universe, these are stories and rationalizations written by nomads who were at the cusp of their mental evolution, thus rendering the scriptures as unrealiable source of scientific theory.

Lets take a look of what the church accepted as a cosmological reality in the middle ages, they believed the geocentric theory of Heraclides (330 B.C.) to be the way our universe actually worked, today thanks to a brave man who had to deliver his findings in his death bed to escape prosecution as heretic from the church set the motion in a way to our Reinesance. His name you should know was Nicolaus Corpinicus.

Furthermore if we were to ref. the bible it expands in this geocentric theory as well.

(The mobility of the sun
The most important biblical quote supporting a geocentric universe can be found in the Book of Joshua. This will be used as the starting point for our scriptural cosmology.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

The miracle of Joshua appears again as a reference in The Book of Habakkuk.

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

The evidence in support of a geocentric model is overwhelming here. Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary. The sun was commanded to stand still because it is the sun that moves. Descriptions of its motion can be rather poetic.)click

Good try man, but no dice!.

Godless

 

[Medicine*Woman]

That's not evidence that's a hypothesis formulated on the assumption that a big bang happened. Wrong kiddo to try and pull this one over.

I don't adhire to the BB theory.

click

Furthermore the bible is the wrong book to bring as some kind of ontological proof of our universe, these are stories and rationalizations written by nomads who were at the cusp of their mental evolution, thus rendering the scriptures as unrealiable source of scientific theory.

Lets take a look of what the church accepted as a cosmological reality in the middle ages, they believed the geocentric theory of Heraclides (330 B.C.) to be the way our universe actually worked, today thanks to a brave man who had to deliver his findings in his death bed to escape prosecution as heretic from the church set the motion in a way to our Reinesance. His name you should know was Nicolaus Corpinicus.

Furthermore if we were to ref. the bible it expands in this geocentric theory as well.

(The mobility of the sun
The most important biblical quote supporting a geocentric universe can be found in the Book of Joshua. This will be used as the starting point for our scriptural cosmology.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

The miracle of Joshua appears again as a reference in The Book of Habakkuk.

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

The evidence in support of a geocentric model is overwhelming here. Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary. The sun was commanded to stand still because it is the sun that moves. Descriptions of its motion can be rather poetic.)click

Good try man, but no dice!.

Godless

*************
M*W: Thanks, Godless. You've brought up some good points. I'd like to reiterate that when the bible refers to the sun, moon and stars, etc., it is nothing but an ancient astrological calendar. I don't claim to be an astrologer, by any means, I wish I knew more about it. I've learned more about astrology from the bible than from any other source!

"The coming day of the Lord" refers to Sun-day, the day of the sun who was viewed as the ultimate supreme god of all creation. Your quotes from Joshua and Habbukuk also refer to astrological positions, the latter most likely referring to an eclipse taking place in the Sign of Sagittarius since "arrow" was mentioned.

The "wars" spoken of were most likely shooting stars or planets obscured by the sun and moon, or a convergence of planets lining up.

The ancient nomads you mentioned probably nomadded their ways by the stars as sailors have done since they built their first thatched canoe.

The repetitions found in the bible are ways of explaining cyclic cosmology and have absolutely nothing to do, necessarily, with anything happening on earth. Although, there is "a time to plant and a time to refrain from planting," for those who tilled the Earth, the whole Lucifer's rebellion thing was nothing more than a meteor shower of "falling stars." After all, Lucifer was the "light bringer."

My humble advice to those who are reading the bible and to those who thump it (you know who you are), would be to look at the scripture from the cosmological angle it was written, and I promise you, it will become ever so clear that it's nothing but ancient astrology.

 

[c7ityi_]

Although, there is "a time to plant and a time to refrain from planting," for those who tilled the Earth, the whole Lucifer's rebellion thing was nothing more than a meteor shower of "falling stars." After all, Lucifer was the "light bringer."

are you unable to understand such things as spiritual (or "mental") darkness. meteor shower... gimme a break. just as there is a sun out there that gives light to the physical world, there is a light within us that gives light to the inner world.... that light is lucifer, who is both satan and god at the same time.

My humble advice to those who are reading the bible and to those who thump it (you know who you are), would be to look at the scripture from the cosmological angle it was written, and I promise you, it will become ever so clear that it's nothing but ancient astrology.

the bible is about god, and so is astrology. but it's not ONLY astrology.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

Thats fine if you don't believe in BIG BANG... niether do i... thats my point.

and im sorry to say, the best alternative to a BIG BANG, is this idea,, based fundamentally on the application of energy from an outside sourse.

-MT

 

[Oxygen]

if reincarnation was a true process, then such a process would likely result in the development of much higher quality souls... yet the harvests would be few and yield little... and such would be a waste of the universe...

Mosheh
All souls are of the highest quality, even that of the cow (which I sense that you regard as worth less than a human soul, although cows are quite a useful animal [or are you taking a friendly jab at my avatar? ])

...high quality soul jewels for Gods collection...

Sounds like we have to make sure we're pretty enough to be part of some cosmic trinket box. I'd like to believe that my existence has a higher meaning than that.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

Oxygen:
prettiness has nothing to do with it..

and cows maybe real nice, and peaceful, and gentle...

but thats because the bulls are mean.

and cows and bulls dont do much.. dont think much, and so dont live very interesting lives...

and the question we need to ask ourself, is whether God would want the memories of a cow.. sitting in a field all day, everyday, chewing cud... boring.

the life of a human, even a retarded crippled one, would still be 10,000 times more interesting... even if it had suffering.

if you believe in re-incarnaition, then you should know that the common believe in Hindu, and Buddhist countries, is that we improve ourselves with each life, and get closer to perfection.. or by being bad.. we go in reverse.. and become something less than human, and have to start over... the cycle of lives towards perfection.

what religion are you?
-MT

 

[Oxygen]

I believe in reincarnation. I do not necessarily agree with the Hindu and Buddhist systems, which are humanocentric. (I think that's the word for it.) And just because a bull or a cow doesn't do anything that humans find interesting doesn't mean that they are mere zombies stanfing in a field waiting to get milked, bred or slaughtered. Because of where I live I have the opportunity to observe cow herds every day. Have you ever seen bovines actually playing? It's not a common sight, and I at first thought it was limited to the calves, but I have seen two adults chase each other (albeit at lower speeds) taking turns nipping at each other's flanks, kind of like "tag". I have yet to see a "mean" bull. I've seen some aggressive ones, and I saw one who found a gap in a fence and got out on to Patterson Pass. I wouldn't call him mean. Gutsy, yes. Mean, no. He stood at one side of the road and feigned charges at the cars as they went by. (I say 'feigned' because he only got near enough to make the car swerve, not to actually hit the car.) We had to pass him but had seen his pattern. So as we went by my husband swerved toward him, stuck out his hand and slapped him. That was one surprised bull! Observe animal behavior a bit more and see what interesting lives they lead. If you live in or near a city, pay attention to pigeons in the underpasses. I watched them one day as they dove at cars. They weren't just diving from ledge to ledge. There was a group of four in particular that with each pass got closer and closer to the cars. While no cars were passing by, they stayed on their ledges. As soon as a car entered the underpass, one or two would swoop across at windshield level, as though they were trying to see who could get closer to the car without getting hit.

As for religion, I have none. I used to. I was born RC but as I got older and discovered different belief systems, I also saw their uses, how they help, and how they hurt. When I walked away from gods and religions altogether I became more at ease with myself and the world around me. I came to see religion to be like training wheels on a bicycle, keeping you upright until you develop your balance and can ride on your own. Some people need religion to steady their lives like training wheels steady a bicycle. I don't anymore. I rely on my own judgement to keep myself steady. Sometimes that judgement is off and I take a spill, but I just get back up and dust myself off and continue.

 

[duendy]

so hell can also be seeing meaninglessness in others, othe species, mountaines, rocks, water, streams, things

so a person in this stae would see animals as mere automations, just there to be exploited...

 

[Oxygen]

duendy-I agree. It indicates a lack of compassion for anything other than one's own kind, and some people don't even have that.

I had two dear pets who passed away a couple of years ago within a week of each other. The dog was 17, the cat was 21. I saw them born and when they died I dug their graves. I was emotionally crushed because of the bond that had formed. Any god that tells me that the life of a serial killer/child molester is worth more than Rex and Mamacat isn't worthy to kiss my ass.

 

[genep]

Imagine yourself, by yourself, completely alone. ....

I imagine Hell as a place of total isolation knowing full well that God exists, that you made a choice not to believe and now am left in utter darkness without anyone, ever.

Peace. :m:

These words "I imagine..." is the definition of the ego, the mind.

THE EGO IS HELL.

To be egoless is TO BE HEAVEN+GOD itself.
To think otherwise is to miss the SAME SIMPLE MESSAGE that all non-egos keep echoing through the ages:


That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind - that alone is God, not what people worship. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)The Upanishads

I have put my truth in your innermost mind, and I have written it in your heart. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Psalm 46

For the kingdom of God is within you. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)Jesus of Nazareth

Whoever knows himself knows God. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)Muhammad

The state of silence is a state of entire peace, in which the intellect ceases to occupy itself with the unreal. In this silence, the great soul who knows and is one with Brahman enjoys unmingled bliss forever.(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Shankara

Don't follow the advice of others; rather, learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Your body and mind will become one, and you will realize the unity of all things. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Dogen

Many people imagine that there is "creature being" here and "divine being" in heaven. This is not true. You behold God in your life in the same perfection, and are blessed in exactly the same way, as in the afterlife.
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Meister Eckhart

Whenever a mind is simple and receives a divine wisdom, old things pass away, - means, teachers, texts, temples fall; it lives now, and absorbs past and future into the present hour. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Ralph Waldo Emerson

If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Shunryu Suzuki

If we find fullness of joy in the thought that God exists, we should find
the same fullness in the knowledge that we ourselves do not exist, for it is
the same thought. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) - Simone Weil

If the mind is happy, not only the body but the whole world will be happy.(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Ramana Maharshi

"There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep
seeking reality though in fact we are reality. We
think that there is something hiding reality and that
this must be destroyed before reality is gained.
How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh
at all your past efforts. That which will be the day
you laugh is also here and now." (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Ramana Maharshi

"You are all Buddhas
There is nothing you need to achieve.
Just open your eyes." (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Siddhartha Gautama

It is proper to doubt. Do not be led by holy scriptures, or by mere logic or inference, or by appearances, or by the authority of religious teachers. But when you realize that something is unwholesome and bad for you, give it up. And when you realize something is wholesome and good for you, do it. (because : YOU ARE heaven +god) Gautama Buddha

"The spirit of man is inseparable from the Infinite, and
can be satisfied with nothing less than the Infinite."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- James Allen

"That which is essential is invisible to the eye."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Antoine de Saint Exupery

"There is in all visible things...a hidden wholeness."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- Thomas Merton

"The fact is that because no one thing or feature of
this universe is separable from the whole,
the only real You, or Self, is the whole."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- Alan Watts

 

[duendy]

genep....dont use Alan Watts' words to justify your ideas. he was not at all meaning what you do---not my experience of his.....twas Watts who really enouraged FULL expression of ALL feelings, NOT just emphasizing comedy

you see i view patriarchal mindsets--of which i include Vedanta--as a demonizing mindset. it loves scapegoating. in your case the 'victim' is the ego......now admittedly one can have TOO much ego. Wattsexplained about this in his book, 'Pyschotherapy East and West', but this doesn't mean doing away with ego entirely. for 'ego' is really one' unique point of view is all, what makes me me and you you

in ancinet traditions tere is a spsirtual event called 'ego-death'--actually this doesn't mean the ego DIES, it means that A worldview does an a new more all-embracing ego is 'born'...if this is not understood and one idenifies with the'One' or 'Universe' or 'God' then tis leads to all kinds of self-agrandizement/inflation

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

the bulls are perhaps not MEAN... but tuff and rugged, and yes... aggressive..

there job is to defend the cows... from predators...

as a bull is a forminable animal.
-MT

thats why the cow was domesticated... they are easy to catch.

 

[genep]

genep....dont use Alan Watts' words to justify your ideas. he was not at all meaning what you do---not my experience of his.....twas Watts who really enouraged FULL expression of ALL feelings, NOT just emphasizing comedy

...

in ancinet traditions tere is a spsirtual event called 'ego-death'--actually this doesn't mean the ego DIES, it means that A worldview does an a new more all-embracing ego is 'born'...if this is not understood and one idenifies with the'One' or 'Universe' or 'God' then tis leads to all kinds of self-agrandizement/inflation

duendy -- they are just words, the Supreme Comedy.

If you are not going to agree with yourself second to second then why on earth should I care about what you think when it changes from second to second.
And if you can understand that then you will understand why I also don’t care about what I think because it also changes from second to second.
-- laughs

ECHO --
Except for perhaps a few dozen people on earth
each person reads the same words differently.
And the joke get bigger
because each day the same person reads the same words differently.
And the joke gets even bigger
as the mind’s needs and hormones changes the meanings of these same words in the same person from minute to minute and second to second.

And the Supreme Comedy can only rocket to another level when you ask me what these words mean when I have nothing to do with the way the meanings of words change from person to person let alone minute to minute.

And the Supreme Comedy rockets yet to another hilarious level
when dictionaries then go on to tell us, with the utmost authority,
that the same words can have different meanings,
in different ways
but not on different days.

-- UV-gap

 

[Zephyr]

Hell is traditionally a place of ultimate misery. But misery is caused by chemicals in our brains. Does that mean our souls have glands too?

 

[Oxygen]

Mosheh-Being "easy to catch" only facilitated their domestication. Still, earlier humans had to deal with those aggressive bulls in order to get the cows. Plus, you can't have cows unless there are bulls around to help create them. As the domestication of livestock played a part in the creation of settled communities which, for better or for worse, led to more advanced civilizations, which, for better or for worse, led to a search for god beyond the natural religion, I think your system underestimates the value of the animal. I prefer to think along more naturalistic lines that all life forms on this planet are part of the same web with no particular one being more or less valuable to the whole than the other. That's why when a species goes extinct by whatever means, Mother Nature tries to fill in the gap lest the web unravel and fall apart.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

and so then what is hell?
-MT

 

[duendy]

and so then what is hell?
-MT

what hints do we have:apart from the laughing genep, most of us know whatit is like to feel hellish dont we? in moments of despair, terror, dread......Sme peple who tis culture classes as 'mentall ill' actually can have hellish visions etc, as well as heavenish. but we are talkinghell

We also are very aware of hellish places and situatons on Earth....terrible violent
areas where you can get harmed, ar zons, awful events like Holocaust, Tsunami, Whatis happening is places in Africa, starvation, war etc etc etc

In modern consciousness research (Stanislav Grof) we havevast amount of data from pople who hav experientailly had all kinds of 'non-ordinary' experience including hellish xperience facilitated both by psychedelic psychotherapy, and Holotropic Breathing

Also in Near Death Experiences, spme have had not-so-pleasant experiences, but hellish experiences

So one ting we KNOW. the EXPERIENCE of hell can be had psycologically and physically in our lifetime, right? but we also want to know can we experience such when REALLY dead?

who can tell us?

one can surmize its possibility. one ting torealize though, that unlike the patriarchal conception of 'hell', the more ancient pagan understanding is the the 'Underworld/Otherworld' is ambiguous..ie., itis not OPPOSEDto 'heaven'----and is a poweful place of learning. Ad is not everlasting--nothng is--but is part of natural process of experiential potentia