What is free will.

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

that has dire legal consequences
”
Not really, one has no choice but to lock up those that cause harm etc. It's a survival thing.

why lock them up - after all they didn't actually do anything

“
so if I was to burn your house and murder your family, technically I am not culpable?
”
Technically, no. One would need to look at why the action was done - mental illness, fragile nature that led to serious offence at my statement that caused your outburst etc etc.

so in other words you feel your view is sufficient for the practical abolishment of the legal system, and in fact all systems of reward and punishment in this world (there's no real reason why you deserve a bigger pay cheque than the person down the street, since both of you are simply acting according to genetics, environment etc)

“
how about if one's brain is telling one to fly a passenger jet into a building?
”
One does it.

so you can't blame them then
I wish you had brought up this point earlier - it would have made it easier to deal with all you attacks on theism

“
To quote Roger Penrose

The issue of "responsibility" raises
”
Ooh, the quoting game..

you are trying to establish that your views are in line with current/cutting edge/dominant academic thought - quoting can help establish the status quo

Here's one from Swami Vivekananda, (one of the most famous and influential spiritual leaders of the philosophies of Vedanta and Yoga.):

Vivekananda is bogus
Go to any university that teaches vedantic study and mention Vivekananda as a Vedantist and they will laugh in your face (although they may have respect for him as a political proponent ) - some even consider him an atheist

'Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here'

notice how he doesn't quote vedanta

 

[SnakeLord]

why lock them up - after all they didn't actually do anything

Uhh, yes they did actually do something. I think you've hit a hurdle somewhere.

so in other words you feel your view is sufficient for the practical abolishment of the legal system

No. As explained on my last post that I guess you missed, the legal system is needed. That's not a hindrance to my statements.

there's no real reason why you deserve a bigger pay cheque than the person down the street, since both of you are simply acting according to genetics, environment etc

The "etc" in your statement was "experience". One guy has different experience to another and thus has another job and thus gets different pay. I don't follow your reasoning.

so you can't blame them then

Their experiences and environment led them to an inescapable belief that a god exists and that the western world were enemies and that their death would make them heroes and get them lots of virgins. Ultimately the answer is no, but do note that this is 'ultimately'. Personally such action is usually not condoned because it is a threat to your own survival, and most people have a strong urge to survive, (it's genetic).

you are trying to establish that your views are in line with current/cutting edge/dominant academic thought

Which it certainly is.. Spend some time with causal determinism, logical determinism, theological determinism, biological determinism etc from people such as d'Holbach, Ginet, James, Lewis, Locke, Schopenhaur, etc etc etc and so on and so forth.

Vivekananda is bogus

Take that up with your fellow hindus.

As we've now turned to the 'bogus game', it needs to be mentioned that Penrose's views on the human thought process are not widely accepted in scientific circles. He becomes "bogus" when other people disagree? K then.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Might as well point out modus operandi. This helps police catch criminals because they can determine in advance what the criminal is going to do based upon observation of past activities.

This applies to everyone, and I'm sure you'd have to agree upon some reflection. You will know the ways to talk to your mother or wife, how they will react to certain things you do etc.

That doesn't mean they don't have free will. It just means they are in the habit of doing things a certain way. At any time they can choose to change their "modus operandi".

You are equating habits with involuntary actions. They are not the same.

 

[SnakeLord]

At any time they can choose to change their "modus operandi"

Which only happens due to external issues, (environment/experience etc). It's not a choice, it's a response.

 

[radicand]

This question is open to atheists and theists alike.

A simple but probing conundrum.

It is interesting to see what people think free will is. In this instance we shall define the tern coming from what we think it means based on what christians believe god gave us.

The 2005 second quarter issue of The Philosopher’s Magazine tackled the issue of the problem of free will. The article was written by John Martin Fischer. I am not a subscriber so I cannot link the article.

Anyway, Mr. Fischer defines it briefly in the opening paragraph by writing: "...free will as motivated by the desire of an agent to make a difference to the world through his free choice..."

I am normally not one to just take some one else's word for it, but I like this as a definition. This seems to be a solid definition.

What is your motivation behind the question?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Which only happens due to external issues, (environment/experience etc). It's not a choice, it's a response.

What are you, a robot? You never do things spontaneously?

It's always this way with those who claim there is no free will. Basically, if mankind is not made up of omnipotent gods free of external influence, you claim he has no free will. That's crap. It's just a way to dodge responsibility for your actions.

A guy I knew in high school always scored one point less than me on exams. So we were of about equal intellegence. When I graduated, I decided to go to college, he joined the army.

While in the army, he signed up for the college fund. He got out with like $50,000 to use for school. He went one semester, then dropped out. Why? Why did he quit while I got a BS and then a doctorate? I choose to stay. He choose not to.

Another guy in college decided to stay up all nite and party every single nite. He ended up dropping every class except for weight lifting which was at like 3 PM. So he'd party all nite, roll out of bed at 2:45 and go lift weights. He only lasted one semester. That was his choice. My choice was to party less and study more.

In high school most of my friends were into various drugs. I wasn't. I choose not to. I didn't want to fuck up my brain. I figured I might need it later.

So go ahead and believe you're some kind of biological robot responding involuntarily to stimuli. I'll go ahead and continue making choices.

 

[heliocentric]

Even taking into account determinism we still have a reasonable degree of autonomy.
Yes genetics and environment do give you a limited framework in which to opperate within. But genetics and environment dont really choose on your behalf, they just limit the scope of options available to you.

Its really no different from programming a robot to be able to walk fowards, backwards, left and right.
The robot only really has 4 variables to play with, but even within this narrow framework of choice the robot can still excersise a degree of autonomy and free will.
The robot can combine forwards, backwards, left, right in any order or combination of moves it sees fit.
Now with human beings replace those 4 variables with the nth number of variables we're genetically bestowed with and it becomes apparent that we do have free-will.
All you can really disprove is absolute free-will, which definitely doesnt exist, but then absolutes usally never do outside of conceptual models, so meh.

 

[superluminal]

Free will is an absolutely inherent part of every organism with conscious decision-making abilities.

This is clearly apparent from what we now know as Quantum Mechanics. Determinism leads to only two possible causes:

1) There is a god who influences and directs your behavior without your knowledge, and therefore you are unable to do anything that is not part of gods plan or will.

2) From the most elementary particles on up to you, physics is 100% deterministic and therefore, no matter how you behave, your behavior has been determined from the 100% predictable subatomic events that constitute you, that are in turn, ultimately dependent on interactions with all other particles in the universe.

We can dismiss #1 since the god hypothesis is far from demonstrated. #2 has been shown to be completely and utterly wrong in every way by the demonstrated facts of the quantum nature of the cosmos.

You have free will in the truest sense based on the fact that, even in theory, no entity, no matter how advanced, could predict your behavior from first principles.

This is supported by chaos theory (rooted in the understanding of the inherent uncertainty shown by QM) in that the tiniest disturbance to a system can have completely unpredictable results. The more complex the system, the more pronounced the deviation from "predictability" can be.

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no free will; there is genetics and environment and what we are preconditioned to respond by the interaction of the two.

 

[superluminal]

There is no free will; there is genetics and environment and what we are preconditioned to respond by the interaction of the two.

Re-read post above ^^^^^^^

 

[S.A.M.]

Re-read post above ^^^^^^^

Advertising.

 

[superluminal]

Advertising.

Truth.

 

[madanthonywayne]

There is no free will; there is genetics and environment and what we are preconditioned to respond by the interaction of the two.

No wonder you're a liberal. You think no one is responsible for their actions.

I hope this means the end of your criticism of President Bush and the US in general. After all, we are only doing what genetics and the enviroment forces us to do!

 

[superluminal]

No wonder you're a liberal. You think no one is responsible for their actions.

I hope this means the end of your criticism of President Bush and the US in general. After all, we are only doing what genetics and the enviroment forces us to do!

SNAP!

 

[S.A.M.]

No wonder you're a liberal. You think no one is responsible for their actions.

I hope this means the end of your criticism of President Bush and the US in general. After all, we are only doing what genetics and the enviroment forces us to do!

Ah but I'm no simple minded empiricist; I'm a philosopher who prays.

 

[superluminal]

Ah but I'm no simple minded empiricist; I'm a philosopher who prays.

Oh. brother...

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh. brother...

Thats Ms Sistah to youh, brutha!

 

[madanthonywayne]

Ah but I'm no simple minded empiricist; I'm a philosopher who prays.

There is no free will; there is genetics and environment and what we are preconditioned to respond by the interaction of the two.

These two statements do not jibe.

Your belief in God is nothing more than the interaction of your genotype and the enviroment? Your ideas on philosophy nothing but DNA + external stimuli? Human thought no more impressive than a phototaxic response in a plant?

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

why lock them up - after all they didn't actually do anything
”
Uhh, yes they did actually do something. I think you've hit a hurdle somewhere.

“they did?
I thought you said it was all environment?

so in other words you feel your view is sufficient for the practical abolishment of the legal system
”
No. As explained on my ...

nope
sorry - you don't do anything - its all environment and genetics (or are you forgetting that)
i

“
there's no real reason why you deserve a bigger pay cheque than the person down the street, since both of you are simply acting according to genetics, environment etc
”
The "etc" in your statement was "experience". One guy has different experience to another and thus has another job and thus gets different pay. I don't follow your reasoning.

looks like I have to remind you again - the whole money thing is just an artificial construct by people who don't know the truth - there is no such thing as free will, thus all issues of reward and punishment are vetoed

“
so you can't blame them then
”
Their experiences and environment led them to an inescapable belief that a god exists and that the western world were enemies and that their death would make them heroes and get them lots of virgins. Ultimately the answer is no, but do note that this is 'ultimately'. Personally such action is usually not condoned because it is a threat to your own survival, and most people have a strong urge to survive, (it's genetic).

glad we cleared that up - now there is no need for you to air your views and suggest what should or shouldn't be done since its all meaningless - nobody has the ability to surmount genetics and environment

“
you are trying to establish that your views are in line with current/cutting edge/dominant academic thought
”
Which it certainly is..

Spend some time with causal determinism, logical determinism, theological determinism, biological determinism etc from people such as d'Holbach, Ginet, James, Lewis, Locke, Schopenhaur, etc etc etc and so on and so forth.

and lo and behold it appears like any other aspect of academia - conflicting views, no consensus, etc etc

“
Vivekananda is bogus
”
Take that up with your fellow hindus.

strangely enough, most people teaching vedantic studies are not hindus, and they agree

As we've now turned to the 'bogus game', it needs to be mentioned that Penrose's views on the human thought process are not widely accepted in scientific circles. He becomes "bogus" when other people disagree? K then.

lol - at least Penrose presents something within his field of expertise

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Ooh, the quoting game..

Here's one from Swami Vivekananda, (one of the most famous and influential spiritual leaders of the philosophies of Vedanta and Yoga.):

'Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here'

Snakelord
“

Vivekananda is bogus
Go to any university that teaches vedantic study and mention Vivekananda as a Vedantist and they will laugh in your face (although they may have respect for him as a political proponent ) - some even consider him an atheist

notice how he doesn't quote vedanta

LG. It seems that even when SL quotes a revered teacher you disagree with him. Can you find a few examples of where a vedantic university calls Vivekananda bogus?

Is it not in any case something that you believe in.
That if we bind ourselves to the material world, we are caught up in the cycle of cause and effect, and that to escape this cycle we need to go beyond material things.

Sometimes I feel that you two have to disagree with each other as a point of principle. It is like a game you are playing.
Here you seem to have adopted each other's viewpoints, and you are still disagreeing!