What is free will.

QuisUtDeus

Registered Member
This question is open to atheists and theists alike.

A simple but probing conundrum.

It is interesting to see what people think free will is. In this instance we shall define the tern coming from what we think it means based on what christians believe god gave us.:D
 
This question is open to atheists and theists alike.

A simple but probing conundrum.

It is interesting to see what people think free will is. In this instance we shall define the tern coming from what we think it means based on what christians believe god gave us.:D
I posted this some three years back, kind of says it all.

Free will.
Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?

Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.

Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.

Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?

In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.
 
This question is open to atheists and theists alike.

A simple but probing conundrum.

It is interesting to see what people think free will is. In this instance we shall define the tern coming from what we think it means based on what christians believe god gave us.:D

It means you can become self-realised, if you so choose.

JAN.
 
It means getting along with others and respecting them as you want them to respect you.
 
Nice one for admitting you possibly couldn't comment on something you have no knowledge of.

Since you defined free will as "what christians believe god gave us" then it's hardly surprising is it?
As a non-christian it's futile for me to participate in a discussion when the parameters are so limited.
In other words, you're not interested in what free will IS or COULD BE, you just want a pre-defined and circumscribed talk-fest about christian beliefs on the subject.
 
With my philosophy-hat on id say its the ability to select from a finite number of choices within a closed system.
Although alot of those choices *may* be determined by your upbringing/genes, so free-will is more like the amount of leg room youve got in a padded cell.
 
To do what you want.

I will also say that knowledge became evil immediately after the first lie was told.
 
Everybody is free to choose his own destiny, everybody creates his own reality.
Well, that is free will.

"The mind is everything, what you think, you become" - The Buddha -
 
It is interesting to see what people think free will is. In this instance we shall define the tern coming from what we think it means based on what christians believe god gave us.:D

I don't think that free will exists. For example I could make you experience certain emotions/state of mind/feelings by saying/doing something that would make you so. Thus you don't have free will because I just made you feel that, I controlled your will.

You just responded to stimuli, that's all. There's no free will, but reacting to external stimuli. Human behavior is largely predictable (because we know how the person is going to respond to a certain stimuli), just like the behavior of other animals.
 
I posted this some three years back, kind of says it all.

Free will.
Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?

Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.

Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.

Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?

In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.

Actually you are wrong to think that. Simply god isnt a negative thing, if he exists his perfection runs analogously with suffering to achieve purification and therefore he has never sent a person to hell. Free will is to choose the path to embrace sin (satan/hell) or to repent sin (God/heaven). Likewise god doesn't send you to hell you choose it, through ignoring love you become so detached from god that by the time u get put in front of gods tribunal your soul cant handle his infinite love and the mistakes its made, your soul rejects its worthliness thus damming itself to an eternal absence of love. Thats why on earth we have to heal our soul (though love) as much as possible, Christs purpose on earth. Also in terms of gods love and in regards to the poor and suffering is a lame reason for there being no god. He doesnt cause the suffering. What do u think the point in jesus was? His only son suffered ridiculously not to mention Mary his mother who had to watch her son be persecuted, beaten and then crucified. Jesus screams at your soul, wake up! Life is a battle, eternal bliss is the prize.

I dont have all the time to go through everything you have said in depth so ill summarise some of the points you made that are answered and you should look them up.

1. You dont necessarily go to hell if you dont believe in Christ or his existence, to generalise this upon all Christian belief is a spurious statement.
2. Pride
3. Ancestral sin very important for the understanding of heaven, hell etc
4. God doesnt send you to hell. You reject heaven, god has perfect forgiveness man doesnt.
5. Free will .
6.no religion is the correct religion. Christians should be vessels of gods angels that pass the good news on. Not an elitist group of gods chosen. To think that you are going to heaven because u believe in Christ is absurd i can assure you hitler isnt in heaven.
8. Satanists believe in christ.
7. The more holy a place the more evil that surrounds it. The devil wants to bring down these places so he infests them. pedophile priests, nazi leaders, suicide bombers. The church doesn't exclusively teach that if you are not part of it you go to hell. Its is simply there to guide people and to fight a spiritual war. There are three churches church triumphant (heavens), church suffering (purgatory) and church militant (earth) . Church militant doesn't mean fighting physical evil, it talks only of spirits.
9.The soul obviously isn't innately aware of evil (adam and eve) hence the teachings of the church.
10. What about the people who have experienced hate all their life but can show nothing but compassion and love for others?
11. bringing intelligence into the equation is ridiculous. C.s. lewis do you think he had a low i.q? J.RR Tolkien how about he? Of course you will finde religous fundamentalists with low i.qs but simile with atheists.
12.You get judged on how much love you gave in your life at every given opportunity. Not religon, not belief, politics, friends you keep, or intelligence.
Just how much did you love others?
Why do atheists argue against something they dont understand?
 
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I don't think that free will exists. For example I could make you experience certain emotions/state of mind/feelings by saying/doing something that would make you so. Thus you don't have free will because I just made you feel that, I controlled your will.

You just responded to stimuli, that's all. There's no free will, but reacting to external stimuli. Human behavior is largely predictable (because we know how the person is going to respond to a certain stimuli), just like the behavior of other animals.

I always could just ignore you.
 
Act your age granddad.

Or better yet you could go away.
You get an answer you don't like and come up with that?
Pfft.
So much for intelligence.

Dude please tell me that you didnt just justify his comment?
What you are doing is just offensive and has a lack of object to it. This is a forum to discuss belief not to be-little people. However if you wish to constantly see if you can wind me up with your witless retorts then i invite you to as you are just wasting your time.

Otherwise i suggest we agree to disagree.
 
Dude please tell me that you didnt just justify his comment?
Nope: there's great deal of truth in what he said, we DO react to stimuli.

What you are doing is just offensive and has a lack of object to it.
Offensive in that I point out your errors?
You should learn from it and thank me.

This is a forum to discuss belief not to be-little people.
No, this is a sub-forum in a SCIENCE forum, if all you wish to discuss is different aspects of belief (with the object of belief accepted as a given then I seriously suggest you're in the wrong place).
Have you bothered reading the rules:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34473
http://www.sciforums.com/announcement.php?f=22
Specifically -
C. Stating Opinions
If you have an opinion, back it up with evidence, a valid argument and even links and references if possible.
Which is what someguy did: backed it up.
Your (reasoned???) response was to suggest that you could ignore him.
Way to go.


However if you wish to constantly see if you can wind me up with your witless retorts then i invite you to as you are just wasting your time.
Wasting my time?
You mean you have no intention of learning anything?

Otherwise i suggest we agree to disagree.
Agree to disagree?
Depends what rubbish you post: you need correcting, I'm available.
 
I think he meant: Instead of forcefully reacted by the stimuli, he can just ignore the stimuli, by using free will.
 
I think he meant: Instead of forcefully reacted by the stimuli, he can just ignore the stimuli, by using free will.

And then the question becomes: how far (and how deeply) are the responses to those stimuli ingrained?
Societal, chemical, biological?
It could be (and has been here on SF) argued that EVERY response we make is a reaction to stimuli and that there is no choice whatsoever - we just react, and justify it to ourselves later.
 
He wouldn't take a biscuit from "Satan's whore" - might be laced with demons or something.
 
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