What is free will?

I decide every waken moment on who i want to be. Constantly adapting to change, improvising as i go. Allways as me to be how i choose to be. If i am cold i will choose to warm up. If i am tired i may choose to lay down. If i have a fear i want to work on i may do so. If i don't like something about my self i will seek to change me. We all do it all the time. Aka self determination.
Hungry me, i eat and then there is a not so hungry me. But i could choose to fast to lose weight or for other reasons... see?
No, your body decides how you are, you are merely along for the ride, there is no choice involved.
Any choices you make are in response to you body's chemical demands

Ask if animals decide who they choose to be every waking moment?

The point is that you do not need to choose. Your body's subconscious interoception does all the chemical work. If you had to choose, you would live for five minutes.

Do you have any idea of what goes on inside you every seconf of every day? Trillions of subconscious chemical interactions are busy keeping your body alive. Watch Anil Seth.
 
The choices considered by the driver are a result of the determined neurochemical process of thought.
The neurochemical processes of the thoughts involved are a result of the (presumably, here, deterministic) patterns inculcated over a lifetime's growth and development of the mind.
Substrates do not determine patterns.
You can only do what the bag of chemicals calculates you must.
You are the "bag of chemicals".
So you do what you choose from the alternatives you possess - you make a decision based on a criterion, and carry it out as an act of will. That decision has degrees of freedom - are we getting closer to being able to discuss them?
Nope:
Go ahead and discuss how the chemicals in your head that facilitate your thoughts can defy the determinism that they exhibit everywhere else.
That supernatural assumption is sitting on the discussion like a toad.
- - -
Right. And that affords you a choice as to notes and composition?
Yes. It's often written on the score, it's always available. Ask any classical musician.
The single light scenario is a choice between action and inaction based on a single symbol. You see the difference?
Yes. It's simpler, and clearer. Until you understand it, there's no point in muddling with more complicated situations.
 
There is something that you may have failed to consider - learning.
Do tell what you have learned that affects your control over your bodily functions?
Do you know of any one who can play the game chess with out learning the rules first?
Are you comparing a living body to a chess game? You're gonna lose the game eventually, regardless what you consciously choose to do to make your body function at peak performance. Healthy diet, exercise, vitamin supplement? It is just a tad more complicated than that.

p.s. the rules of the game of life is encoded in your DNA. That's the "learned" program and it is an exquisitely tuned game being played inside you without your consciously learned knowledge.
p.p.s. "evolution" and "natural selection" are the natural "learning" processes of all things.

I believe it's called "epigenetics".

But perhaps you are a little naive in viewing your body and its activities. Chess is a childs game compared to the game of life that goes on inside you without you even being aware of it. It's only when things go wrong that your conscious brain gets "notified" with a demand for corrective action. That's when we go to see a doctor.
Once learned every move is calculated, deliberate and self determining. Every move made is done freely and is dependent on how well you apply the rules for your own self benefit.
Ask your heart and your lungs and the flora in your guts, how they decide to keep functioning day after day for some eighty years, without your conscious participation.
Certainly that dang butterfly a few billion years ago didn't teach me how to play chess as I had to teach my self by my own self determination.
Really? Butterflies were using the airstream for millions of years when you were still a probability to fly thousand of miles to their breeding grounds.
Who made those travel arrangements? Bacteria and pure chemistry!!

Your body is engaged in an incomprehensibly large chess game among billions of bacteria and chemical chess moves.
If that and millions of other similar examples is not sufficient to show self determination at work I really don't know how it can ever be.
That's the illusion.
You don't need a brain at all to be alive and functioning. The paramecium does quite well even without a neural network, let alone a brain.

If a brain is necessary, how do these organisms manage to live?

Watch this Drew Berry clip of what goes on inside you every second of the day and night, without you being the least aware of it.

and this newer one;
These animations show cellular biology on the molecular scale. The structure of chromatin, the processes of transcription, translation, DNA replication, and cell division are shown. All animations are scientifically accurate and derived from molecular biology and crystallography research.
Note the magnification levels of the representation of various epigenetic activities.

Our bodies are biological universes! The numbers of active parts inside your body are astronomical.

Now there's a chess game, being played with exquisite precision, completely independent from our conscious decision making processes.
 
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That supernatural assumption is sitting on the discussion like a toad.
IMO, you have this backwards. The supernatural assumption of "will" excludes the chemical component of thought and replaces it with some vague supernatural notion of "will" which is able to control or override the deterministic natural biological chemistry.

I am not saying we have no will, just that "will" is generated by chemical "survival' responses.

IMO, "fight or flight" is a chemical survival reaction, not an act of will.
 
IMO, you have this backwards. The supernatural assumption of "will" excludes the chemical component of thought and replaces it with some vague supernatural notion of "will" which is able to control or override the deterministic natural biological chemistry.
The point was that these guys assuming any freedom of will must be supernatural is crippling the discussion. They - and you - should drop that assumption.
I am not saying we have no will, just that "will" is generated by chemical "survival' responses.
Substrates do not determine patterns.
 
FREE WILL in a nutshell.!!!

Free will occurs in the brain -- verified by the feelin that we have free will… an demonstrated by the fact that we make choices on a daily basis… so thers no need for further investigation… an besides… its good that people thank they have free will… otherwise society woudnt work as good as it does.!!!

The End.!!!
 
Ask your heart and your lungs and the flora in your guts, how they decide to keep functioning day after day for some eighty years, without your conscious participation.
maybe i should just ask 'em for advice on how to play chess?
 
FREE WILL in a nutshell.!!!

Free will occurs in the brain -- verified by the feelin that we have free will… an demonstrated by the fact that we make choices on a daily basis… so thers no need for further investigation… an besides… its good that people thank they have free will… otherwise society woudnt work as good as it does.!!!

The End.!!!
You think so? Do you really think humans could not function without conscious decision making?
Do you know how well a human body works without any conscious decision making? Check this out, this mentions everything we have been talking about;
Are you fascinated by the incredible machines around you? On a typical day, you might ride in an automobile, talk on a smartphone, access the Internet on a computer, and watch a movie on a high-definition television.
While all of these machines are awesome examples of today's technology, they're not nearly as impressive as another complex machine. What are we talking about? Your human body, of course!
Scientists concluded that the average human body contains approximately 37.2 trillion cells! Of course, your body will have more or fewer cells than that total, depending upon how your size compares to the average human being, but that's a good starting point for estimating the number of cells in your own body!
https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/how-many-cells-are-in-the-human-body

These cells are in a constant state of Mitosis, the machinery that creates NEW CELLS in our bodies
The Mitosis Cell Cycle,
Before a cell starts dividing, it is in the "Interphase." It seems that cells must be constantly dividing (remember there are 2 trillion cell divisions in your body every day), but each cell actually spends most of its time in the interphase.
Interphase is the period when a cell is getting ready to divide and start the cell cycle. During this time, cells are gathering nutrients and energy. The parent cell is also making a copy of its DNA to share equally between the two daughter cells.
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/cell-division


Our brains have nothing to do with this process. It occurs completely without our consent. Neat huh?

That's just for starters of how our bodies work and "tell our brains what it needs", without our awareness or consent.

All our decision making rests on the conscious or subconscious reception and response to external or internal "input".

All the conscious or subconscious decisions we make are "involuntary", but because we make them it gives an appearance that they are from free will. They are not. They're determined by our physical needs.
And our physical needs rest on the demands placed by our bodies in their quest for "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction". This is not voluntary, it is a natural imperative which rules all living things.
This is what theists consider the "hand of god", but it is the "hand of bacterial quorum sensing"
 
I'll teach you if you don't know how to play.....:)
Thanks for the offer but my gut bacteria are probably more suited.... ( humor - no offense implied )

It is rather amazing how much incredible organic engineering goes in to creating an ability to sustain most of the time a capacity to self determine. Automated systems functioning quietly in the background all to support the "learned" mobility, animation and decision making processes of a free willed individual. An incredible sado-masochistic symbiotic relationship if one wishes to treat it all in dualistic terms, between body and will. I for one do not, but I understand why others need to.
 
The point was that these guys assuming any freedom of will must be supernatural is crippling the discussion. They - and you - should drop that assumption.
I have no idea what you are talking about? I am certainly not talking about supernatural phenomena. You are.
I am talking hard physical biological functions. It is just at an extremely small scale, but never super-natural.
Trust me....:rolleyes:
Substrates do not determine patterns.
Actually they do. Substrates are patterns. Many bacteria only form substrates.
Bacterial Cellulose as a Substrate for Microbial Cell Culture
Bacterial cellulose (BC) has a range of structural and physicochemical properties that make it a particularly useful material for the culture of bacteria. We studied the growth of 14 genera of bacteria on BC substrates produced by Acetobacter xylinum and compared the results to growth on the commercially available biopolymers agar, gellan, and xanthan.
We demonstrate that BC produces rates of bacterial cell growth that typically exceed those on the commercial biopolymers and yields cultures with higher titers of cells at stationary phase. The morphology of the cells did not change during growth on BC.
https://aem.asm.org/content/80/6/1926
Divisions of morphology.
Comparative morphology is analysis of the patterns of the locus of structures within the body plan of an organism, and forms the basis of taxonomical categorization.

Functional morphology is the study of the relationship between the structure and function of morphological features.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphology_(biology)
 
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Thanks for the offer but my gut bacteria are probably more suited.... ( humor - no offense implied )
:cool:
It is rather amazing how much incredible organic engineering goes in to creating an ability to sustain most of the time a capacity to self determine. Automated systems functioning quietly in the background all to support the "learned" mobility, animation and decision making processes of a free willed individual.
Which do you think provides the greater impetus, 13.7 billion years of mathematical learning (evolving) of physical objects, or 30 years of book study about the mathematical physical nature of the universe?

Question; bacteria can learn, can they develop free will?
An incredible sado-masochistic symbiotic relationship if one wishes to treat it all in dualistic terms, between body and will. I for one do not, but I understand why others need to.
Sure that is the dilemma spiritualism poses with the proposition of Free Will.
This dilemma is avoided with the proposition of Determinism.

I keep it real simple. No matter what I choose, it is a deterministic result of a lifetime of prior causalities and mental processing and learning.

The proof lies in the fact that ten different persons will respond in ten different ways to a given set of circumstances. Each is allowed to choose their deterministic response, none are free to resist the ultimate response and choose other than what they actually do choose.

Determinism does NOT mean a single possible answer. There is usually a range of possible allowable responses. Such as the deterministic "fight or flight" (or hide, or play dead) response to a perceived danger. None of the choices by free will, but as an instinctual deterministic response to danger.
 
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:cool:

I keep it real simple. No matter what I choose, it is a deterministic result of a lifetime of prior causalities and mental processing and learning.
Fortunately scientific truths are not dependent on opinion or personal preferences.

..and what is more there is an entire world of Judiciary, some of the smartest minds on the planet who will support the notion of self determination and for one of the relatively rare moments in my life, I am not on the outer of majority consensus.... hee hee

The bulk of scientific research, especially medical, is devoted to sustaining and increasing the power of individual self determination... so go figure as to your position....
 
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Quantum Quack said,
Fortunately scientific truths are not dependent on opinion or personal preferences.
I agree.
Have you ever considered "physical causal closure"?
Physical causal closure is a metaphysical theory about the nature of causation in the physical realm with significant ramifications in the study of metaphysics and the mind. In a strongly stated version, physical causal closure says that "all physical states have pure physical causes" — Jaegwon Kim,[1] or that "physical effects have only physical causes" — Agustin Vincente
Those who accept the theory tend, in general although not exclusively, to the physicalist view that all entities that exist are physical entities. As Karl Popper says, "The physicalist principle of closedness of the physical ... is of decisive importance and I take it as the characteristic principle of physicalism or materialism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_closure
The bulk of scientific research, especially medical, is devoted to sustaining and increasing the power of individual self determination... so go figure as to your position....
I think it is more a matter of devotion to sustaining and extending life, not choosing to live. And that is eminently compatible with the concept of evolution and natural selection.
The quest for survival.
 
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Determinism does NOT mean a single possible answer. There is usually a range of possible allowable responses. Such as the deterministic "fight or flight" (or hide, or play dead) response to a perceived danger. None of the choices by free will, but as an instinctual deterministic response to danger.
entirely founded on the underpinning motive of self benefit or self interest. Not some universal deterministic grand plan.
 
entirely founded on the underpinning motive of self benefit or self interest. Not some universal deterministic grand plan.
I agree. There is no deterministic Grand Plan, that spiritualism. But it is not proof of free will either, IMO.

And we go full circle back to the mathematical universe.
every heard of psychoneuroimmunology?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology
other wise generalized to refer to psycho-somatics.
Thanks for the link.
The main interests of PNI are the interactions between the nervous and immune systems and the relationships between mental processes and health. PNI studies, among other things, the physiological functioning of the neuroimmune system in health and disease; disorders of the neuroimmune system (autoimmune diseases; hypersensitivities;
immune deficiency); and the physical, chemical and physiological characteristics of the components of the neuroimmune system in vitro, in situ, and in vivo.
Nowhere does it mention "free will", does it?
 
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I think it is more a matter of devotion to sustaining and extending life, not choosing to live.

have you not seen the direct correlation between life and self determination?
Once a person can not longer self determine (Alzheimer, dementia, old age, decapitation etc...... what happens?
 
FREE WILL in a nutshell.!!!

Free will occurs in the brain -- verified by the feelin that we have free will… an demonstrated by the fact that we make choices on a daily basis… so thers no need for further investigation… an besides… its good that people thank they have free will… otherwise society woudnt work as good as it does.!!!

The End.!!!

Thanks for the "like" QQ :)

You think so?

Not at all... my "FREE WILL in a nutshell" post was just tossin a bone to those who cant brang themself to discuss actual free will --- it seems that they feel boxed-in sinse they thank supernatural is the only explanation for ther view that will is free.!!!
 
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