Mr. "I don't know" neither believes there is a God or there is no God. Therefore is neither theist or atheist. He is not necessarily Godless unless you consider Godless a belief. If Godless means there is actually no God, then any claim of Godlessness must be on all whether theist or not.
What exactly is atheism?
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Enmos
Valued Senior Member
You either believe in God or you don't.
It is an epistemological basic that everything you know/believe to be true in your subjective knowledge may or may not be true in objective actuality.
Let's say in actuality there is a God. The following positions:
1. God exists. (True in actuality).
2. God does not exist. (False in actuality)
3. I don't know whether or not God exists.
If in actuality, there is no God:
1. God exists. (False in actuality.)
2. God does not exist. (True in actuality.)
3. I don't know whether or not God exists.
In actuality, all are either with God or without God/Godless.
Thus, no matter what claim you make, actuality remains the same.
Correct that the claim that "I don't know" is one who does not believe there is a God. However, there is no reason to want to group the undecided into an ism. They do not fall under atheism as much as they do not fall under theism.
Let's say in actuality there is a God. The following positions:
1. God exists. (True in actuality).
2. God does not exist. (False in actuality)
3. I don't know whether or not God exists.
If in actuality, there is no God:
1. God exists. (False in actuality.)
2. God does not exist. (True in actuality.)
3. I don't know whether or not God exists.
In actuality, all are either with God or without God/Godless.
Thus, no matter what claim you make, actuality remains the same.
Correct that the claim that "I don't know" is one who does not believe there is a God. However, there is no reason to want to group the undecided into an ism. They do not fall under atheism as much as they do not fall under theism.
What a pain that must be for those that believe in a god but - as much as anyone else, also "don't know". Is he no longer a theist because he doesn't know? Anyone without a belief in god/s is an atheist. Knowing whether such entity exists or not doesn't change anything, unless you contend that every theist that doesn't know but believes isn't a theist.
There is no such thing.
Everything one believes, is based on the extent of one's knowledge. Whether they are claiming to believe it or know it with 100% certainty, it is still a belief. A claim to not know either way is having neither belief.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2088534&postcount=9
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Enmos
Valued Senior Member
If you don't know you don't believe in god.. :shrug:
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Atheism means "without god" :bugeye:
Yes atheism is about without God. If one doesn't know, one is not of the "without God" position. If you don't know it does not mean you believe there is no God. Atheism is to be without God. Unknown, is simply complete uncertainty either way which is not atheism.
So who does know either way? It is not about knowing but about having a belief or not having a belief. A theist does not know whether a god does or does not exist. According to you these theists have no belief.
Such statement is worthless. They most certainly do have a belief, (a belief in a god that they don't know exists). If you don't have that belief you are an atheist - you are without that belief in gods.
Knowledge is a different issue, (agnostic) but is not a middle ground between theism and atheism, indeed both theists and atheists are quite often also agnostics.
Atheists say they are weak atheists to avoid being as ignorant and making the same mistakes theists do. Although, it makes perfect sense to be a strong atheist.
A belief is taking a position. To say "I believe X is true", it is irrelevant of whether or not you are 100% certain of it. Certainty has no relevance in the case of these terms. It is simply a position based on the extent of one's understanding.
X is true = I believe X is true. There is nothing else to it. To claim I don't know has nothing to do with level of certainty. It simply means an individual doesn't know with any level of certainty. If a person claims they do not know something, they cannot make a statement of belief.
"I don't know" = I do not claim either belief = I do not take either position.
"I believe X is true" = I take position that X is true. Level of certainty is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the matter.
X is true = I believe X is true. There is nothing else to it. To claim I don't know has nothing to do with level of certainty. It simply means an individual doesn't know with any level of certainty. If a person claims they do not know something, they cannot make a statement of belief.
"I don't know" = I do not claim either belief = I do not take either position.
"I believe X is true" = I take position that X is true. Level of certainty is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the matter.
What mistake is that? Taking a particular position has nothing to do with certainty. Claiming God exists or does not exist has nothing to do with certainty.
3 POSITIONS
God exists < This is a belief (regardless of level of certainty).
God does not exist < This is a belief (regardless of level of certainty).
I don't know if God exists < This implies having no form of belief. (on any level of certainty).
God exists < This is a belief (regardless of level of certainty).
God does not exist < This is a belief (regardless of level of certainty).
I don't know if God exists < This implies having no form of belief. (on any level of certainty).
Curious... how does position 2 differ from position 3??
It’s not a position it is a state where they don’t have a belief in god. People who have never heard of Yahweh are still godless.
Didn’t you say
?
Those that haven’t decided do not have the belief. So they without the belief.
A = without - atheist
Less = without - godless
You don't seem to understand the difference between making a statement, and the meaning behind the statement. Anybody can say anything they want. A person can say "I believe there is not a God, but there is a God". If you take your statement literally, it doesn't work. You literally cannot believe something exists, and don't know if it exists at the same time. However, the idea behind the statement is clear.
The person is basically saying that to the extent of his knowledge, God does exist.
Position 3 is somebody who simply doesn't know. Position 2 is somebody who is basically saying that to the extent of his knowledge, there is no God.
That was before people started applying different connotation to Godless. In any connotation, Godless means without God. If, in actuality, there is no God, and any individual that believes there is a God still remains Godless.
Semantically, the term "uncertainty" is often misinterpreted:
1. The sense that the individual does not have 100% certainty of a position.
2. The sense that the individual has absolutely no level of certainty on the issue at hand.
The term certainty is also misinterpreted. It is pointless to use those terms.
A person's "claim" of certainty/uncertainty has nothing to do with a person's "actual" position on a matter. The only thing that is relevant is the limit of one's understanding. Any claim of knowledge, belief, certainty about something is a position based on the limit of one's understanding. No matter how you say it, this is a belief.
Any claim of "I don't know or "I am unsure/uncertain" is not a claim of "I am not 100% certain". It is a claim based on the limit of the individual's understanding that the person does not know on any level. Thus is not a belief either way.
1. The sense that the individual does not have 100% certainty of a position.
2. The sense that the individual has absolutely no level of certainty on the issue at hand.
The term certainty is also misinterpreted. It is pointless to use those terms.
A person's "claim" of certainty/uncertainty has nothing to do with a person's "actual" position on a matter. The only thing that is relevant is the limit of one's understanding. Any claim of knowledge, belief, certainty about something is a position based on the limit of one's understanding. No matter how you say it, this is a belief.
Any claim of "I don't know or "I am unsure/uncertain" is not a claim of "I am not 100% certain". It is a claim based on the limit of the individual's understanding that the person does not know on any level. Thus is not a belief either way.
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