What do you believe....

Dave Lush said:
Frozen, you should read Caesar's Messiah.

http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Roman-Conspiracy-Invent/dp/1569754578
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M*W: Hi Dave, and welcome to sciforums. You're the first poster who has mentioned Caesar's Messiah (besides me). I think there is something to this. Have you read Francesco Carotta's extensive research Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity?

Interestingly, Atwill parallel's the life of Jesus Christ and the life of Titus. In the NT there is a book of Titus. I haven't yet compared the two, but I am interested if there is any parallel there. I do believe there is a connection between Flavius Josephus and the NT. What do you think?
 
Geeser,

Before my debunking of your source book begins i need to know this-

If someone told you a small yellow bird visited them at night outside their window sill and communicated through telepathy would you consider this person prone to delusions- YES or NO?
 
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John99 said:
Geeser,

Before my debunking of your source book begins i need to know this-
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what source book you've lost me, I've read numerous books fact and fiction, I dont have one that I use as a source so you've completely lost me!
John99 said:
If someone told you a small yellow bird visited them at night outside their window sill and communicated through telepathy would you consider this person prone to delusions- YES or NO?
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if it was the very first time they told me it happened, then no, I could not say prone, but I would think they had been dreaming.
however if they had told me this story repeatedly and they totally believed it then it would be a yes, they would not only be prone to delusions or hallucinations, but could be suffering with a bipolar disorder and would need to see a shrink.
 
Hi M*W,

I know of the Carotta book but I haven't read it. I've almost bought it a few times but have not wanted to spend the $30 for something I already know. Also, Carotta and his supporters are very rude on the internet and dismissive of the CM thesis. They certainly haven't endeared themselves to me. Atwill is always very kind about it and says sure the writers of the Gospels borrowed freely from the life of Julius Caesar as it suited them.

Seems to me that somebody may have borrowed episodes of somebody's life is interesting but not the heart of the issue. What we really want to know is who wrote the gospels and why. Is Carotta saying that the administrators of the cult of Julius Caesar wrote the canonical gospels? Does that make any sense chronologically? I haven't thought about it much but I don't think it would. Unless the Julius Caesar cult was still being maintained in the time of Vespasian and Titus, or if the Flavians took something they had written 100 years earlier and totally subverted it for their own purposes. Anyhow what matters is that the gospels as we have them clearly commemorate Titus' Judean military campaign and Josephus (the official historian of the Flavian court, after all) tells us plainly so. Also, Jesus prophecies in precise in correct detail when and how Jeruselum will fall to Titus and Vespasian (the Father). Even if this is a later addition to the gospel (which I don't believe it was) it would still be profoundly important because it says somebody deliberately equated Jesus and God the Father with Titus and Vespasian.
 
What fools, if you want to read tabloid tales as a goof thats one thing but to actually believe it is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity. I would not give this guy $30 for this book unless it is in the fiction section, and it was viewed for what it is - entertainment. And think of the trees used to print this thrash, couldn't he just settle for an article in the National Enquirer?
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The book is for sale at Amazon for $12 not $30. It may cost you more for shipping and tax but clearly Atwill is not getting $30.

Fact:
If the Romans needed to bring the Jewish people into line (which is the main theme of this book) then they would have done what the Roman Empire had done to become an empire- go to war...AND they would have won, it did not cost the Romans anything to quell uprisings...SAD/
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Check your history, John99. The Jewish rebellion was hugely costly and embarrassing to the Romans. It was rather similar to us and say, Iraq.

Atwill discusses this issue in this interview:

http://www.rodephemet.org/atwill radio 63007.mp3

And the most amazing thing is that how many Jews converted to Christianity after the Romans played this trick on them? um, i don't know maybe five, OK maybe a few more but then..oh, forget it.
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How well the plan worked is irrelevant to whether it existed or not. The neocons thought they could clean up Iraq in 3 months. That this now seems laughable doesn't mean they couldn't have thought so then.


Are we witnessing the downfall of our civilization due to degeneration of human intellect?
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Just the opposite of course. The obvious can no longer be suppressed, due to the decentralization of control of the media and the resulting free marketplace of ideas.

Unless you are equating civilization with Christianity. Then it is your civilization falling not mine. Yes we are about to witness the downfall of that.

As i write this post i am overcome with sadness, i will not allow myself to sink into despair, my only hope is this is not a sign of natural regression, not a fact of nature, not what happens to civilizations when they 'run out of gas'. Part of me knows the answer to this but i just will not let myself believe it.
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Yes I guess part of you recognizes just from reading the reviews at amazon, that the Atwill thesis is obviously true and that you are in for some readjustment of your thought processes. I wish you luck in your journey. Try to break free man.
 
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Dave Lush said:
Hi M*W,

I know of the Carotta book but I haven't read it. I've almost bought it a few times but have not wanted to spend the $30 for something I already know. Also, Carotta and his supporters are very rude on the internet and dismissive of the CM thesis. They certainly haven't endeared themselves to me. Atwill is always very kind about it and says sure the writers of the Gospels borrowed freely from the life of Julius Caesar as it suited them.

Seems to me that somebody may have borrowed episodes of somebody's life is interesting but not the heart of the issue. What we really want to know is who wrote the gospels and why. Is Carotta saying that the administrators of the cult of Julius Caesar wrote the canonical gospels? Does that make any sense chronologically? I haven't thought about it much but I don't think it would. Unless the Julius Caesar cult was still being maintained in the time of Vespasian and Titus, or if the Flavians took something they had written 100 years earlier and totally subverted it for their own purposes. Anyhow what matters is that the gospels as we have them clearly commemorate Titus' Judean military campaign and Josephus (the official historian of the Flavian court, after all) tells us plainly so. Also, Jesus prophecies in precise in correct detail when and how Jeruselum will fall to Titus and Vespasian (the Father). Even if this is a later addition to the gospel (which I don't believe it was) it would still be profoundly important because it says somebody deliberately equated Jesus and God the Father with Titus and Vespasian.
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M*W: Carotta's book isn't as easy to read as Atwills. I prefer Atwill's, too. It's direct and to the point. I usually order my reference books from Amazon.com at the used book price. I can't remember how much I paid for it, but it was much less than $30. I want to read as much as I can about the Roman's writing the NT. Josephus is the likely author. However, I think there is some strong astro-theology parallels in the NT, but then the Romans were big into astrology and they saw their emperors as divine.

It's good to hear your viewpoints on this theory.
 
Oh man, the Romans pulled of this ingenious ruse and they were so smart that they then changed their minds???

http://www.google.com/search?q=1st+...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/kingdoms.html

Also once the Christians became such a problem to Rome they could have just said "hey we made it all up and we can prove it"

Some interesting links:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html

http://killeenroos.com/1/Romefall.htm

Augustus was Caesar at the time of the birth of Christ not to mention Julius Caesar was MURDERED.

"The Senate rose in respect for his position when they saw him entering...

...That was the moment for the men to set to work. All quickly unsheathed their daggers and rushed at him. First Servilius Casca struck him with the point of the blade on the left shoulder a little above the collar-bone. He had been aiming for that, but in the excitement he missed. Caesar rose to defend himself, and in the uproar Casca shouted out in Greek to his brother. The latter heard him and drove his sword into the ribs. After a moment, Cassius made a slash at his face, and Decimus Brutus pierced him in the side. While Cassius Longinus was trying to give him another blow he missed and struck Marcus Brutus on the hand. Minucius also hit out at Caesar and hit Rubrius in the thigh. They were just like men doing battle against him."
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I have studied Roman history from when i was a child, but i am using mostly links because i would be typing for a long time, and this is laughable. The map below shows Roman provinces listed at the top right and you should know see that doing this would be a logistical nightmare not to mention senseless:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_395.jpg

Look at the Emperors of the time and you should see that anyone even suggesting such a thing as Atwill does would need to be quite dim. I would say that even suggesting such a thing to a Roman Emperor would have been a death sentence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

Finally check youtube for Atwill Interviews and have a good laugh, could be propaganda...
 
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_Fr0zEn said:
These things aren't the reason I have doubt. True, the Christian God could very easily do any of those things. But I believe a great deal of the Bible to be metaphors. While He could perform these feats, I never believed He actually planned to perform them.



You'll have to forgive me; im tired/ listening to the White Stripes so its hard for me to intelligently explain all this.
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Yeah i am tired also. I am suffering from the flue and i am not at my best.

Some of the bible is symbolism of course. But much of it i believe is actual happenings both past and future. You say planned to perform them? I prefer to Believe He always knew He was going to need to preform them but that he did not plan to perform them. You are right though it is very hard to explain these things even while you’re in good health and rested.

What I said about "judgement day." Its a common Christian belief that "Christ will come." I heard a preacher (that I have a lot of respect for) once talk about all this (over dinner or whatever) and I remember him asking "Where did he go?" Christ promised his Holy Spirit to be with us always. Im not exactly sure I can explain it any better, but that was his idea.
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Yes judgement day is my belief also, But the final judgement will not happen upon the return of the Messiah Jesus. But 1000 years after the return of Jesus.

No to the question "Where did he go?"

Now i cannot be sure from the detail of your story as you say you where tired when you put this down. But i have heard some people say Where did the Holy Spirit go to. Well the truth is that people left the love of the truth (That being the truth taught by Jesus) and when they do the peace and wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit departs from them. Then they are left with no guidance and they walk down the road of religious traditions that seek to justify their rebellion against the words of Jesus.

So the Holy Spirit withdraws from those who reject the Word of God. As Jesus says:

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
I say become Agnostic.

Keep searching for proof/disproof in the name of science you won't find much and will proberly move further away from religion. However, keep in the back of your mind that there may be a God.
 
John99, thanks for posting the links. I looked at all of them and especially enjoyed the lead poisoning one. Have you seen the recent media stories based on a study by an economist that links crime rates falling to removal of lenvironmental lead?

Of course this has nothing to do with Atwill's thesis that I can see. Not sure if you meant it to be. The other links seem superfluous to me as well.

The Flavians were long gone by the time of Diocletian. Regardless of origin, any cult that challenged the power structure would have to be at risk of persecution.

The wikipedia article on the Jewish rebellion describes three expensive-sounding rebellions of which the one in the late 60s to 70s was only the first. This certainly does not support your previous contention that the Romans could effortlessly crush the Jews at will.

The real reason to accept the Atwill hypothesis is not circumstantial. Rather, it's because they left clues in the writings of Josephus and parallels with the New Testament. I am under an impression that these parallels are widely accepted but misinterpreted as that the writers of the canonical gospels borrowed freely from Josephus. This hypothesis fails however to account for the strange nature of Josephus' history itself, as evidenced for example most profoundly in Josephus' story of the cannibal Mary of the seige of Jeruselum.
 
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Dave Lush said:
John99, thanks for posting the links. I looked at all of them and especially enjoyed the lead poisoning one. Have you seen the recent media stories based on a study by an economist that links crime rates falling to removal of lenvironmental lead?

Of course this has nothing to do with Atwill's thesis that I can see. Not sure if you meant it to be. The other links seem superfluous to me as well.

The Flavians were long gone by the time of Diocletian. Regardless of origin, any cult that challenged the power structure would have to be at risk of persecution.

The wikipedia article on the Jewish rebellion describes three expensive-sounding rebellions of which the one in the late 60s to 70s was only the first. This certainly does not support your previous contention that the Romans could effortlessly crush the Jews at will.

The real reason to accept the Atwill hypothesis is not circumstantial. Rather, it's because they left clues in the writings of Josephus and parallels with the New Testament. I am under an impression that these parallels are widely accepted but misinterpreted as that the writers of the canonical gospels borrowed freely from Josephus. This hypothesis fails however to account for the strange nature of Josephus' history itself, as evidenced for example most profoundly in Josephus' story of the cannibal Mary of the seige of Jeruselum.
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I dont know what to tell you. Doesn't look like anyone is taking this book seriously and you want to force me to? I get info from credible sources like BBC calibre researchers not any book that comes along that will soon be forgotten.

Six months ago every one was ******** their pants over 'finding where Jesus was buried', remember that?

People read the Bible and can dream up whatever they like, some see codes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

But go right ahead and believe all the stories you want to.
 
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I dont know what to tell you. Doesn't look like anyone is taking this book seriously and you want to force me to?
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Suit yourself by all means. You could be right - maybe it will all blow over and be forgotten.

Of course I'm doing my small part working against that. Atwill's thesis seems obviously true to me, and profoundly important. If and when it hits critical mass - watch the fun.

There's said to be a movie in the works, although it appears to be overdue to start production. Also, a German-language edition coming out in the fall, according to Atwill on his website. He also says it is by a more major publisher who will actually promote the book as opposed to Ulysses who have done nothing.

I have a feeling this cat won't go back in the bag so easily. Christianity has made more than a few enemies over the years, and now it just may be payback time.
 
These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.
 
Dave Lush said:
These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.
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M*W: There is more logic and potential truth in Atwill's theory than in the story of Jesus married Mary Magdalene and sired the Merovingians (the Vine of Mary). I researched that theory in serious depth, but now I realize it cannot be true. That 'theory' came about from ancient astro-theological myth, even though a plethora of authors have written about it with movies that followed. My opinion is that it doesn't really matter what christians may think about these theories. Those who matter are the ones doing the comparative research as well as those who care to learn from it.
 
Dave Lush said:
These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.
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1. I have neither the disire or need for your dirty paper, nor would i "invest" in a project that has not begun production.

2. Dont be [DELETED].
 
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