What do you believe....
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John J,
There is nothing that says that reality is something good or has a happy outcome. Death is ugly and final - unfortunately religions attempt to make this reality look like a magical gateway to a perfect paradise – perhaps the biggest con trick humanity has ever foisted on itself.
Certainly choosing to believe a fantasy is true can be a distraction that can make you happy. Can you be happy deliberately choosing to be deluded?
Sandy,
And yet other’s see it quite irrelevant.
People are unique, but this particular journey is well trodden – the indoctrination as a child, the constant insistence throughout youth and from family that Christianity is correct, the intelligent questioning of the indoctrination, the search for facts, the rejection of baseless fantasies, and finally rational thought and skepticism of religious claims.
I think the point is that he doesn’t, that is what he is searching for.
No he doesn’t, that is what the indoctrination states.
But can you demonstrate anything more than you have chosen to believe that a baseless fantasy is true and that you find that fantasy more satisfying than facing reality?
can you prove death is final? energy can only be transformed, never destroyed. death is only transformation. not the end of something. nothing in this universe can be observed to come to an end. only transformed into something else.
obviously some people can.
peace.
Adstar,
Baseless assertion. No one can show that gods can exist yet let alone that one might actually exist.
Or to simply acquire a rational outlook and never look back.
This statement is wonderfully full of religiously inspired indoctrination: A heavily biased attempt to associate religion as truth and non-belief with untruth. What would be nice is an objective search for truth and rational thought.
Looks like preaching to me. Yup it is definitely preaching. I think that’s what he doesn’t need right now.
Good healthy ‘IF” statements there.
LOL – no I think what he said was that he is beginning to realize the silliness and absurdity of religions.
It should be the questioning of the entire god concept.
Whether true or not, right?
Empty,
You mean like the fact that of the many billions of people who have died there is a 100% result that none have been seen again. Sounds pretty damn final to me. Or do you have some indication that something else is possible?
OK.
Nonsense, death by definition is an end; much like a lump of ice ceases to be ice when it melts into water. That lump of ice no longer exists. When a person dies and their body is burnt or rots in the ground then that person no longer exists. That energy and bio matter is a result doesn’t help that person in any way.
And in the case of a human body this tends to be energy and bio matter. So what is your point?
If you are happy believing in a fantasy as your life then good for you.
so either they come back as flesh and blood to walk the earth or they dont exist?
so out of all the possible quantum possibilities in the universe. consciousness existing in another dimension to our own after death is impossible?
that lump of ice does still exist but it is transformed into another form. but those atoms still exist and are not dead. so who is saying that our conscious minds have not been inprinted into the universe somehow and stored into another fabric of existence? out of all the wierd possible outcomes of the universe its not that far fetched. and i dont believe or diss-believe anything untill i have proof its possible or impossible.
untill something is proven 100% to be impossible i dont count it out. you can feel free to though i dont mind.
my point is that energy can not be destroyed only transformed. i dont doubt that our biological bodies break down.
i dont believe anything. i chose to stay open minded until something is proven impossible. if i say something is "possible" how is that a fantasy ? i didnt say its true i said its possible.
peace,
Frozen -- it's only normal to question ... everything. if you're a halfway intelligent person you will question and question. wonder and ponder. but what drives you in the end -- in my opinion -- will be what you desire. it won't be anyones religions or concept etc, because humans well, we have the disposition to justify our actions saying they're 'right' because we desire them.
not what any church or religion desires but what you want. if you find that in a church then it must be because u want that. if you find it in drugs, then you want that. if you find that in X, x = whatever, then u must want x.
not one human adheres perfectly to any religion or philosophy. humans bend the rules, we change them to suit our own desires. just hopefully in the end what you want is something beneficial to humanity and not destructive heh
not what any church or religion desires but what you want. if you find that in a church then it must be because u want that. if you find it in drugs, then you want that. if you find that in X, x = whatever, then u must want x.
not one human adheres perfectly to any religion or philosophy. humans bend the rules, we change them to suit our own desires. just hopefully in the end what you want is something beneficial to humanity and not destructive heh
Empty,
The point here is that transformation results in the loss of the original item. That my dead body will be transformed into base elements and recycled is of no value to me as I once was.
When a biological entity ceases to have any biological cohesion and there are no means to restore that cohesion then that original entity will have ceased to exist.
Given one can imagine an infinite number of fantasies why pick that fantasy as having any merit over anything else?
But it is no longer a lump of ice. In the same way that a human after death is just a combination of energy and ashes or rotting meat. In both cases the original identifiable human no longer exists. If I make a screwdriver out of a piece of metal then melt the metal and make a wrench then that screwdriver will no longer exist.
The point here is that transformation results in the loss of the original item. That my dead body will be transformed into base elements and recycled is of no value to me as I once was.
Again it is one fantasy out of an infinite number and as such it has no merit. You are also suggesting another foolish fantasy that consciousness is somehow independent of the brain.
Can you describe any such particular weirdness beyond fantasies to support that position?
Humans are simple biological entities – there is nothing more complex here or need to create any fantasies beyond that.
A fantasy isn’t something necessarily impossible, but simply an outrageous unsupportable speculation. The argument here would move onto the differences between possibility and probability and of course credibility.
Cris, where Empty is correct is asserting that death isn't an end to the total sum of energy that comprises a human (which is typically rapidly tranformed during docomposition after death). In theory, there is no beginning or end to energy... just periods of transformation and points of rapid change people often attribute labels of 'beginning' and 'end'. Where Empty isn't correct is his implication that this also applies to consciousness. It's an emergent phenomena of specific configurations of energy (the brain... and I am treating matter and energy as the same) and when too much difference is applied (ex. death), the emergent phenomena ceases. So while the energy is not destroyed and simply transforms, the emergent phenomena of consiousness stops (i.e. it has a real beginning and end).
These things aren't the reason I have doubt. True, the Christian God could very easily do any of those things. But I believe a great deal of the Bible to be metaphors. While He could perform these feats, I never believed He actually planned to perform them.
What I said about "judgement day." Its a common Christian belief that "Christ will come." I heard a preacher (that I have a lot of respect for) once talk about all this (over dinner or whatever) and I remember him asking "Where did he go?" Christ promised his Holy Spirit to be with us always. Im not exactly sure I can explain it any better, but that was his idea.
You'll have to forgive me; im tired/ listening to the White Stripes so its hard for me to intelligently explain all this.
Frozen, you should read Caesar's Messiah.
http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Roman-Conspiracy-Invent/dp/1569754578
http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Roman-Conspiracy-Invent/dp/1569754578
daves right, frozen, heres a summary. http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html
What fools, if you want to read tabloid tales as a goof thats one thing but to actually believe it is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity. I would not give this guy $30 for this book unless it is in the fiction section, and it was viewed for what it is - entertainment. And think of the trees used to print this thrash, couldn't he just settle for an article in the National Enquirer?
Put your faith in some guy named Joseph Atwill who writes a book over 2,000 years later and his far fetched impressions.
Fact:
If the Romans needed to bring the Jewish people into line (which is the main theme of this book) then they would have done what the Roman Empire had done to become an empire- go to war...AND they would have won, it did not cost the Romans anything to quell uprisings...SAD/
And the most amazing thing is that how many Jews converted to Christianity after the Romans played this trick on them? um, i don't know maybe five, OK maybe a few more but then..oh, forget it.
To think that this stuff is taken seriously by a segment of modern society is embarrassing. But i have come to the conclusion that mankind is in fact becoming less intellectual with the passage of time...now just more proof...i am genuinely sad for our civilization...so sad, what will the future bring? And will ignorance permeate our society like a communicable disease insidiously poisoning future generations? Only time will tell, but for now i just ask where did we go wrong? Are we witnessing the downfall of our civilization due to degeneration of human intellect? The last stand of the creative mind? When did this happen...when when when?
As i write this post i am overcome with sadness, i will not allow myself to sink into despair, my only hope is this is not a sign of natural regression, not a fact of nature, not what happens to civilizations when they 'run out of gas'. Part of me knows the answer to this but i just will not let myself believe it.
I am responding to people on the internet named Dave, Frozen and geeser, where have i gone wrong? where where where :shrug:
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"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Listen to your daddy John, or is what he said irrelevant to you? Thing is I've noticed you calling people fools in many posts of yours and I'd hate to see you burn for eternity because of it. Repent now while you still can.
how is that any different to belief in the bible.
why is that any different than putting your faith in a book that is totally baseless, the bible.(think of the amount of trees that have had to die to print the bible the qu'ran the vedas etc etc.)the bible is complete fiction but it not put in the fiction section is it.
we suggested he read it, not that he believed it, he could also read about mithra, attis, dionysus, krishna, horus, and many many more, or if he so wishes he could watch this http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ it just aids him in becoming a clear thinking individual.
how do you think most atheists, become atheist, through study.
Because the Bible is a beautiful original creation, i have not fully studied it but i have read passages from it here and there. I know most of what is in it anyway, i am gifted in that way/
The book about the Romans you mention is crap. That Zeitgeist movie i will watch when i have time but it is all fantasy and speculation so it is a lot like watching paint dry.
The book about the Romans you mention is crap. That Zeitgeist movie i will watch when i have time but it is all fantasy and speculation so it is a lot like watching paint dry.
as is reading the bible, but I did it.
you need study other information, to get a clear understanding of religion and religious books.
accepting one book as truth, and using the very same book to authenticate itself is deluded and foolish.