What do you believe....

F

_Fr0zEn

Registered Member


I know this is long, but it'd really help me out if you could read it all and maybe say something in reply. Thanks a lot - Fr0zEn

Hello everyone. I am new to this message board. I was searching google for religious debates and came across this site. I've been eyeballing it for a week or so, and finally decided to become a member and make a post or two.

I grew up (in portland) in a Christian family. I have a brother and a sister, both of which, as far as i am aware, claim to be Christian. If you had asked me a year and a half ago, I would have claimed the same thing. So what changed? What do I claim now? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The summer before and the entirety of my senior year of high school seemed to bring much change to my life.

I stopped going to church for two main reasons; 1) I didn't have any good friends. I was nice to everyone and people were nice to me, but no good friend that I did stuff with outside of Bible studies. 2) My parents stopped going, claiming that the church's views and teachings were too narrow-minded and literal (or at least thats the reason I gathered). I think thats around where things started to change. I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it. She just blew it off as something that everyone goes through.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?

It was after this that my Christian spirituality and faith began to fade. I never (and still haven't) admitted to not believing in (a) God, but I certainly wasn't living a Christian life. I've been pondering my quandary for many weeks now, and I sought out a board like this to perhaps offer enlightenment or something like that.

I guess I could ask (if you read all of that gargantuan 1st post) what your thoughts on my predicament are. How did you became to believe what you believe now? And what is your rational?
 
I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.
 
_Fr0zEn said:
I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.
Click to expand...

I went thru a similar set of events many yrs ago. I had,actually only believed in some portions of the bible but always found much of it ridiculous,especially the often cruel,"nutty" behaviour of the Old Testament God,Yahweh.
It's very patriarchial slant and treatment of women also disturbed me.
Now, when I consider the nature of the bronze age hebrews thou, it all makes perfect sense.

So, I embarked on a quest to explore other religions which I did.Paganistic beliefs had fascinated me so I took time to look into the various pantheons out there as well,hung out with pagans for awhile, read and researched and learned what I could.

Then I came across all the accounts of Near Death experiences and after reading as many as I could ,finally realized...as far as an afterlife and God,this was about as close as you can get. At least these were accounts from people all over the world and for the most part, modern day people.
The overall consensus of them seemed to confirm (what I believe anyways) is that many religions do have a "core" spiritual truth but due to humanitys' ignorance they quickly got lost in all the man created dogma by the people involved in their formation.
All the various religions and beliefs of the world are simply due to different peoples "view" on God with all the cultural habits of the people involved factored into it.

So, if NDEs' are simply the dying brains final "dream" before death as skeptics believe and we simply vanish into oblivion, I guess I will have to always keep that possibility in mind. I don't believe this to be the case thou.
It would be up to you to determine your views on this matter of course.

Anyways, have a look at this site. It could explain a lot more than what I can put here.
All the best to you!:)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html
 
_Fr0zEn said:

I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it.
Click to expand...


Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.

And understand that Satan was never an angel, according to the Bible. Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14).

So the idea that you are better than the folks that, as you put it "take the Bible literally" is baseless, although it is self-glorifying and needs to go.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?
Click to expand...


How can't just one be right?

What is one's final authority? That is the big question in life. One hears and reads so many things - in the end it boils down to a question of final authority.

The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy. Of course you will hear the usual litany of braying and contention with respect to this, but check it out.

A good resource to help you is:

http://www.tektonics.org/

God bless you.
 
The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy.
Click to expand...

It's silly to claim it is inerrant. It's directly self-contradictory in different parts. As for prophecy, what has it predicted successfully so far?
 
Nutter said:
Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.
Click to expand...
Good grief!:rolleyes:
I think you understand full well the point he was making. There are some Christian sects that take the Bible MORE literally than others.
e.g. Was the Earth created in 6 days, per the Genesis account? Some believe so. Some don't.


_Fr0zEn, welcome to the realm of rational thought and thinking for one's self. It is a scary first few steps, though. :D
 
Nutter said:
Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.
Click to expand...
I'm actually talking about more complex metaphors than that.

Let me give you an example. Revelations is a good one. First off, most Christians (the ones at this church at least) believe that Christ is going to come back and save humanity and all this crazy stuff is going to happen. They actually believe that the dead Christians will rise out of their graves and ascend into the sky to meet Jesus with trumpets sounding in the background, etc. I also never believed in a literall armageddon for that matter.

More examples in Genesis. The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve; most Christians believe that is the actual literal truth and haven't ever dreamed of it being any other way. I believe to be more of a metaphor, rather than a physical place. Also, Genesis claims God to have created the earth in 6 days, but God lives outside the realm of time. 6 days to him can mean anything he wants it to mean. Thats how I always was able to agree with evolution, saying it was the tool by which God created man.

Anywho, thats more along the lines of what I was talking about. Not trivial stuff like that.
 
There are plenty of people as smart as you who have asked these same questions. Some become atheists, some agnostics, some switch religions, and some plod on despite the apparent contradictions. Those are your choices. Other religions will have the same problems. Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope. Plod on. You will see there are many practical uses for religion besides the eternal salvation of the soul.
 
Spiritual growth is like climbing a ladder. Most of us do it and are at a certain point/wrung. We often take a step up only to take two steps down. It all depends on your quest at the time. Some keep climbing, some stop, some descend, some fall off, and some want to go even higher.

Your spiritual journey is unique. You know the right thing to do. You know the Bible and how your personal relationship with God is vital to your peace. So you are questioning things now. That's ok and to be expected.

I trust you will make the right decision for yourself. You seem like a wise person who knows the truth. :)

I came to believe what I do because I ran out of answers. I wanted more. I had everything I ever dreamed of but still had the hole in my soul without the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Only He can fill that hole. I was a Catholic. I didn't get it. Now I do. :)
 
_Fr0zEn said:
I also want to say...
I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian.
Click to expand...
yeah brainwashing is very hard to shake off,
I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull)
Click to expand...
well were you or not,
my guess is youre same as before,you dont become worse by losing your religion,on the contrary you start to think more reasonably.
WTF is wrong with having pride anyhow?
you are supposed to have pride when you acomplish something,otherwise whats the point of doing anything..
when I had a relationship with God.
Click to expand...
you NEVER had any fng RELATIONSHIP with any god,you just repeat the same old nonsense like all the rest of the "brainwashed ones"
But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.
Click to expand...
believing in YOURSELF certaintly works for me,
sure I fuck up sometimes,everyone does,we are human after all,but then I have only ME to blame, no devil,god or anyone else.
now come ...join the DARK SIDE!! :D
 
Nutter said:
Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.

And understand that Satan was never an angel, according to the Bible. Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14).

So the idea that you are better than the folks that, as you put it "take the Bible literally" is baseless, although it is self-glorifying and needs to go.




How can't just one be right?

What is one's final authority? That is the big question in life. One hears and reads so many things - in the end it boils down to a question of final authority.

The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy. Of course you will hear the usual litany of braying and contention with respect to this, but check it out.

A good resource to help you is:

http://www.tektonics.org/

God bless you.
Click to expand...
the cherubium are an order on angels
 
_Fr0zEn said:


I know this is long, but it'd really help me out if you could read it all and maybe say something in reply. Thanks a lot - Fr0zEn

Hello everyone. I am new to this message board. I was searching google for religious debates and came across this site. I've been eyeballing it for a week or so, and finally decided to become a member and make a post or two.

I grew up (in portland) in a Christian family. I have a brother and a sister, both of which, as far as i am aware, claim to be Christian. If you had asked me a year and a half ago, I would have claimed the same thing. So what changed? What do I claim now? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The summer before and the entirety of my senior year of high school seemed to bring much change to my life.

I stopped going to church for two main reasons; 1) I didn't have any good friends. I was nice to everyone and people were nice to me, but no good friend that I did stuff with outside of Bible studies. 2) My parents stopped going, claiming that the church's views and teachings were too narrow-minded and literal (or at least thats the reason I gathered). I think thats around where things started to change. I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it. She just blew it off as something that everyone goes through.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?

It was after this that my Christian spirituality and faith began to fade. I never (and still haven't) admitted to not believing in (a) God, but I certainly wasn't living a Christian life. I've been pondering my quandary for many weeks now, and I sought out a board like this to perhaps offer enlightenment or something like that.

I guess I could ask (if you read all of that gargantuan 1st post) what your thoughts on my predicament are. How did you became to believe what you believe now? And what is your rational?
Click to expand...

relax dude your a christian from what you said had been going to a conservative christian church and then your parents i guess began believe in a more liberal idea of christianity. as long as you belive in god and are a decent person i think you have nothing to worry about.
 
John J. Bannan said:
There are plenty of people as smart as you who have asked these same questions. Some become atheists, some agnostics, some switch religions, and some plod on despite the apparent contradictions. Those are your choices. Other religions will have the same problems. Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope. Plod on. You will see there are many practical uses for religion besides the eternal salvation of the soul.
Click to expand...

what the fuck is your problem with atheists and agnostics?
 
_Fr0zEn said:
I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.
Click to expand...

Well God knows the specifices in your life and in the beliefs you where taught or that you formed.

It is sometimes necessary for people to reject what they have learnt to move away before they can turn back and have a fresh look at God.

If you are prideful and hate the love of the truth your move into atheism will be a permanent one and you will become an anti-christ like so many others in this world.

But if you are meek and you have love for the truth then you will look once again at the message of the Messiah Jesus and throw off all the baggage of religious traditions. You will then be lead to where God wants you to be.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
_Fr0zEn said:
I'm actually talking about more complex metaphors than that.

Let me give you an example. Revelations is a good one. First off, most Christians (the ones at this church at least) believe that Christ is going to come back and save humanity and all this crazy stuff is going to happen. They actually believe that the dead Christians will rise out of their graves and ascend into the sky to meet Jesus with trumpets sounding in the background, etc. I also never believed in a literall armageddon for that matter.
Click to expand...

If there is a God then these things are as nothing to Him. I do not understand why anyone disbelieves in God because of these kinds of things? If God is God then He has the power to make these things happen.

IS it that you do not believe in God because of the things he is going to do. Or you don't believe in God so you don't believe these things can happen.

What comes first? Disbelief in God or Disbelief in His Works?

If one believes in God all these prophecies are easy to believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
_FrOzEn,

Welcome to the world of rational thought.

Keep one thing clear in your mind - it is not necessary to believe something is true if there is no support for it. It is perfectly aceptable to state/observe that there is insufficient information to make any conclusion re the supernatural and religions in all of their forms.

And to take a healthy skeptical position is NOT the same thing as asserting the opposite - i.e. that something does not exist as that can be equally irrational.
 
become a daoist. its a good life. you dont have to do much or believe anything. you can kind of make stuff up as you go along too.


peace.
 
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