What Constitutes Acceptable Suicide?

[mordea]

Firstly: No, not all suicides are brought about by or caused by "depression". As a point of fact, some are calm, straightforward, logical ways to accomplish something or to avoid dealing with something.

The vast majority of suicides are caused by some sort of underlying mental illness. The examples of 'rational' suicide that you cite are incredibly rare, and attempting to conflate them with suicides caused by mental illness is a little misleading.

He was not depressed, just in over his head.

How do you know that he was not depressed?

Secondly: Depression is not comparable to leukemia.

Not in all aspects. However, there are some similarities, which make it an appropriate analogy in some contexts.

but much depression can be successfully 'cured' with decent diet, an exercise program and a couple of hours of bright light every day.

I don't agree, and think you are trivialising what can be very serious diseases that may also be difficult to manage.

People that I have known with leukemia died a slow, miserable death irregardless of what they tried.

As have people with depression and psychotic illness.

 

[Stoniphi]

I find the indirect ad hominums as effective as the direct ones.

I know how people that I know, speak with and spend time with feel because I watch them, listen to what they say and see how they act. If you cannot do this, it is your misfortune and you have my condolences.

Cured my ass, managed MAYBE by SOME people but no one is cured. This proves you have NO idea what the hell your talking about. Wow you had a couple of people you know comit suicide which OVIOUSLY makes you an expert. Forget those who live it, forget those who spend 6 + plus YEARS studying mental illness before they are alowed to treat ANYONE even UNDER supervision. You oviously know it all.

Hey, thanks for your attempt to invalidate my education, professional experience, personal feelings and misfortunes as well as my success in dealing with what can - and often is - a fatal emotional disorder. I wish you the the same luck in dealing with your obvious problem.

You do not know me, you do not know of my education, my experience or what I do - yet you can slam - dunk my life and knowledge with an off-the-cuff ad hominum insult and figure that you have somehow 'won' something? Bravo there, tough guy, and thanks for the online diagnosis, analysis and prognosis. I guess that since in your opinion I haven't really dealt with my depression that I have to go kill myself now?

Your accuracy is no doubt as tight as your logic. :tongueincheek:

When I threatened suicide to prevent my (military) parents from sending me off to the military academy, my motivation was anger and payback. It was NOT depression. I was NOT depressed - I was furious and determined. Those were my feelings at the time, none of you can change that or make them any different than that because you are not me and you do not control my feelings - period.

Suicide is when you voluntarily kill yourself for whatever reason. Period. You do not get to pick and chose which particular self - killings you will allow to be called suicide by others, that is not within your power or control. You do not get to dictate the reasons for that self killing either, as that also is not under your control or within your power.

You don't have to accept either the suicide or the motivation though, it doesn't make any difference to the dead person.

 

[visceral_instinct]

What he may need to hear most is that they are temporary.

I'm with Fraggle. Just knowing that something will go away, is a great help.

 

[Nasor]

I'm with Fraggle. Just knowing that something will go away, is a great help.

Perhaps - but for someone who has suffered from depression for decades, it might be hard to convince them that things will get better. The average suicide "victim" is over 40 and has suffered from depression for years, and something like 40-50% of them have previous suicide attempts. In other words, they are people who have been very unhappy for a very long time. "It will all get better" probably doesn't seem plausible to such a person, based on their many years of experience of things not getting better.

 

[Orleander]

Orleander: ...From a Native standpoint; All our lives are made up of memories. Each moment that passes becomes a memory in an instant. It's the memories that count.....

well, considering the high Native suicide rate, the memories must suck.

 

[Neverfly]

well, considering the high Native suicide rate, the memories must suck.

Due to the pretty despondent living conditions and alcohol, substance abuse.

Bear in mind, Native Americans lived a vastly different culture a very short time ago. Suddenly, generations meant nothing as they were lifted out of the culture by greedy men that continue to do damage to what they took by force.

So yes, there are some sucky memories, involved.


Also, nice to note that you disseminated my post to one line just to be a little smart ass.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

* * * * NOTE FROM A MODERATOR * * * *

WOULD YOU PEOPLE PLEASE STOP BITCHING AT EACH OTHER?

This is a sensitive topic. Some of the people posting have had friends or relatives commit suicide; others have friends and relatives who are in pain. It's easy to get upset in an environment like this. So please cut each other some slack and don't aggravate it.

STOP THE PERSONAL INSULTS. If you disagree with someone you can do it with reason and civility, not with smart-ass remarks.

We call this "self sarcrifice" NOT suicide.

Actually in America these days we do call them "suicide bombers." That is now the standard name for those assholes.

Come to think of it, I remember people calling the kamikaze pilots "suicide pilots" when discussing WWII in the 1950s. They didn't have bombs so they weren't suicide bombers.

This proves you have NO idea what the hell your talking about.

Please stop the personal insults. You're not the only one who's doing it. I'm talking to EVERYBODY.

Perhaps - but for someone who has suffered from depression for decades, it might be hard to convince them that things will get better.

Sorry, we seem to have gotten off track here. I was speaking specifically about the young man who was upset about his friend committing suicide. He is experiencing grief. That will pass. Maybe sooner, maybe later, but it will become bearable. Just knowing that this will pass can be helpful; you can look forward to the future knowing it will be better. Once you're my age and you've had some really sad things occur, you know you get over them. But teenagers haven't had that experience.

The average suicide "victim" is over 40 and has suffered from depression for years, and something like 40-50% of them have previous suicide attempts. In other words, they are people who have been very unhappy for a very long time. "It will all get better" probably doesn't seem plausible to such a person, based on their many years of experience of things not getting better.

I wasn't speaking about those people and did not mean to belittle their feelings. Sorry if I did not communicate clearly.

My favorite uncle committed suicide when he was about 35 and I was about seven, in 1951. Somehow my parents helped me understand it. They even had to explain what the word "suicide" meant. That must have been hard for my mother, he was her little brother. Her father had just been killed by a truck while crossing the street a few years earlier; I never knew him. My other grandfather was also killed in a traffic accident. It was spooky: the quintessential American death for both of them.

 

[Neverfly]

* * * * NOTE FROM A MODERATOR * * * *

This is a sensitive topic. Some of the people posting have had friends or relatives commit suicide; others have friends and relatives who are in pain. It's easy to get upset in an environment like this. So please cut each other some slack and don't aggravate it.

Apologies to the forum. My heritage is an extremely sensitive topic for me.

 

[Gypsi]

Why is it acceptable to choose when to die when you are suffering from physical pain, but not mental pain?

Why is mental pain seen as something less serious when in all actuality, mental and emotional pain leave the deepest scars?

I think that if I am totally honest my personal feeling would be that it's not considered acceptable because it pains and scars the people who loved the person who committed suicide, in a way that is remarkably difficult to resolve.

It creates unasked for, inescapable pain and it's difficult to resolve because it is in many ways felt as a betrayal of everything we believed we knew and of our own sense of value in that person's life. It makes a lie of everything.

In this way, it's more difficult to come to terms with - to accept - than the loss of someone to illness or accident. In those cases, we lose someone but they remain intact (as it were).

With suicide, we lose them and lose what we thought we knew of them, too.

Most likely in reality much of what we knew remains true but certainly I think there is an overwhelming sense of double loss and beyond that (a long time after) still the questions.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Who gets to decide when it's "acceptable" or "okay" to take your own life?

My condolances for your loss.

I've suffered from bipolar/depression problems for many years. I have tried to commit suicide before but received excellent psychological help from very well trained professionals. It took them awhile to "adjust" my medications so that they would benefit me and since then I've still felt the depression lows but the medications have helped keep me from hitting the bottom as I once did. Seeking help is very important and if those who are helping you don't seem to be helping then move along and find some others that will help. You can tell when they are trying to help because some of them just don't care. You need always to remember that YOU are the one in charge of your own destiny, not others, so always do what YOU want to do to either seek help or don't. No one but yourself can control what you want to do and it is your decision to do whatever it is you need to do in order to be either helped or not.

 

[Stoniphi]

...... My heritage is an extremely sensitive topic for me.

My great grandmother (the sole living member of her family at the time) escaped the Trail of Tears, made her way North to a small rural town in Illinois where she met and married my great grandfather. Many of us understand the sensitivity, we all need to be here, now, however.

 

[Neverfly]

My great grandmother (the sole living member of her family at the time) escaped the Trail of Tears, made her way North to a small rural town in Illinois where she met and married my great grandfather. Many of us understand the sensitivity, we all need to be here, now, however.

It was the Now that I was reacting to in Orleanders comment.