What Constitutes Acceptable Suicide?

[ogdred]

i would treat it the same way as if someone said they had cancer or any other medical condition. if the "threat" was imidiate i would call an ambulance, if it was not imidiate i would refer them to a GP to get a referal to a psycologist.

And that psychologist would probably, among other things, work out some strategies with the depressed individual to help them fight their suicidal urges. Depression is a mental illness and there is a mental component to fighting it (or, on the other hand, succumbing to it).

the fact that some people die from it doesnt "belittle" those who suffer anymore than some people dying from cancer "belitles" those who survive or suffer for years with it

People do not have the option of resisting the urge to succumb to cancer. Cancer either kills you, or it doesn't. I'm sure dealing with cancer is a struggle, I don't mean to suggest it isn't, I'm simply saying that one cannot through sheer determination resist death by cancer. That is not the case with depression and suicide.

Yes, when you suggest that depression either kills or it doesn't, no free-will involved, you are absolutely dismissing all the millions of sufferers who've had the urges and fought them. Most importantly I don't think your suggestions are accurate, but secondarily I think it's obvious that they are not helpful to sufferers of depression. I would rather my suicidal loved one feel empowered to fight their illness, rather than think that every time they feel an urge to hurt themselves the depression is simply winning and they're helpless to fight it.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I don't agree that seeing suicide as 'dying of depression' is insulting to sufferers who overcame it.

It's like saying that referring to someone as 'dying of cancer' is an insult to people who had it and survived.

 

[Asguard]

And that psychologist would probably, among other things, work out some strategies with the depressed individual to help them fight their suicidal urges. Depression is a mental illness and there is a mental component to fighting it (or, on the other hand, succumbing to it).



People do not have the option of resisting the urge to succumb to cancer. Cancer either kills you, or it doesn't. I'm sure dealing with cancer is a struggle, I don't mean to suggest it isn't, I'm simply saying that one cannot through sheer determination resist death by cancer. That is not the case with depression and suicide.

Yes, when you suggest that depression either kills or it doesn't, no free-will involved, you are absolutely dismissing all the millions of sufferers who've had the urges and fought them. Most importantly I don't think your suggestions are accurate, but secondarily I think it's obvious that they are not helpful to sufferers of depression. I would rather my suicidal loved one feel empowered to fight their illness, rather than think that every time they feel an urge to hurt themselves the depression is simply winning and they're helpless to fight it.

no, its your post which is the insult for suffers. I not only STUDY this stuff but i LIVE it as well and you have no idea what your talking about or the hurt that your attitudeds can cause people. "Suck it up, you just lack will power" is one of the most distructive statments you can possably make to someone who suffers depression. IT IS A DISEASE, no less and one with the potentual without (and sometimes even with) treatment to be a lethal one.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Jesse there is an interesting anthology called 'On Suicide' by John Miller. Its an amazing compilation of reflections on the subject by authors like Primo Levi, Walker Percy, Emile Durkheim and others. It relates to the subject from a variety of perspectives that may be of interest to you, might help you wrap your mind around the subject.

 

[jessiej920]

REPLY TO ALL

I just want to thank everyone for providing words of comfort as well as thought-provoking opinions. I know this subject can be touchy, but just reading through everyone's posts, seeing that people took the time to respond, makes me feel so much better. The truth is, I am pretty numb to this whole situation, hence the fact that I felt the need to take it to sciforums and have it dissected for me.

I think the worst part about it is that I understand why my friend did it. I know the type of pain he was suffering...so I don't feel as angry and hurt by his actions as others.

What Asguard said -
That's how I feel about suicide too. It sucks that they were that far gone, but on the other hand, they found peace, they're no longer suffering.

I agree. My friend is at peace now.

What exactly is the underlying presumption here? That the guy was obligated to continue to live in agony so that these people wouldn't have to deal with the emotional trauma of having someone they know die? It sounds to me like they're the ones being selfish...

That's what I said. How is it selfish to end your own suffering?

jessie, do you see now? even people who empathise make the fundermental mestake of assuming its a CHOICE, is it a choice to die from cancer? of course not and nither is suicide. it is the leathal conclusion of a disease, no choice, no ethic or morals involved.

I think this right here helps me come to terms with what happened more then anything else. Thanks, Asgaurd.

I was getting ready to write one of my usual long-winded responses, but I scrolled through the entire thread and discovered that everybody agrees with me. How refreshing!

Oh crap. I wrote one of my usual long-winded responses anyway. Well I hope there's something in there that you find helpful.

Keep in touch. We care. Well at least I do!

I read your whole post (it was long)! Thank you for taking such time to respond and thank you for caring. It helps to know that others out there understand.

oh wow. A friend of my son's hung himself last week. He was only 19.
My son is more angry than sad right now.

I am numb.

First, I am very sorry for your loss.

Thanks to the anonymity of the internet, I feel like I can share my own experiences.

Years ago I lost a girlfriend to suicide. I went through different phases of grief as most people do, but without a doubt my dominant feeling about the situation was and still is anger. We did not have a secretive relationship--I knew she had moments of weakness, and she knew that if she gave into them I would be destroyed. She chose to inflict that destruction.

Understand, I am not ignorant about depression and mental illness. I am certainly more familiar with these things than I would ever choose to be. And, I am somewhat ashamed to admit, the desire to follow suit after my partner was practically irresistible for a time. I do believe this is where some of the anger stems from--if only I'd been as uncaring as she was, I could have left the pain behind too. What kept me here (a good thing, in retrospect) during that horrible aftermath was the unwillingness to destroy my family.

So, I was angry because I felt betrayed. But here is another thing to consider: this was a person who I relied upon, who I needed. She was my strength when things fell apart. Suddenly, in one thoughtless moment, she had not only wrecked me but taken away the only thing which could have eased such pain. Simply put, I could not afford to be sad because I'd lost the only person I'd privilege with such vulnerabilities. So, I got mad. And, incidentally, that did the trick and I got through it with minor cuts and bruises.

I guess my point is this: grief is incredibly complicated. People don't really get to decide how they react to tragedy. I think it's a shame that these people you refer to cannot muster the self-restraint to keep potentially hurtful feelings to themselves. At the same time, lets not assume that they are simply ignorant or selfish.

Thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry that happened to you. I can't imagine the pain of losing a partner to suicide. I understand the anger and I think the last part of your post really makes sense. I know that people are angry with my friend and I know that they are angry because they loved him.

I am so very sorry for your loss.

To answer your question there is no really acceptable form of suicide, none that can be justified a priori. What there is, are limited options. Everyone, given the chance, would prefer to live. But people fear loss of independence, loss of control. When that fear becomes overwhelming, it supercedes our instinct to survive.

Thank you for the condolences and for your response. I think your point is interesting...I never thought about fear superceding our basic instinct to survive unless physical danger was imminent, but I can see how that could also apply to mental and emotional pain.

Asguard is right. The word *committing* suicide shouldn't be used because 'committing' denotes a crime.

My stance on suicide, in a nutshell: You know when someone is in extreme physical pain, they start acting weird? Scream, thrash around, pull a messed up face, maybe yell things like 'Get me some fucking morphine'??

Well, suicide is like that. The guy in extreme physical pain isn't thrashing around and yelling just to annoy people because he's selfish. He is doing it because he is in extreme pain and the pain impulses are overloading his brain and his normal function is gone. Same goes for suicide.

V.I., you never fail to put into words the exact image I have in my mind. And I think you are right, "committing" does seem to denote crime. In fact, it IS a crime, legally, to take your own life. Criminalizing suicide doesn't help those that suffer from depression and mental illness, it only ostracizes them.

 

[Orleander]

My son feels that his friend committed murder. He wants someone to suffer for his friends death. He wants justice. He wants there to be a trial so that there are answers to his friends death.
How do you deal with the anger of it when the person has murdered them self?

 

[visceral_instinct]

Um, how about considering that poor person's suffering, instead of his own feelings? It's not hard. Use the morphine analogy like I said earlier.

Sorry for my angry demeanour, I just have no time for the 'Suicide is selfish' crowd. None. Zilch.

 

[Orleander]

Um, how about considering that poor person's suffering, instead of his own feelings? ....

My son's feelings are as valid as his dead friends. Its too late to do anything about how his friend felt. Its not to late to do anything about how my son feels.

Should I tell my son his feelings are selfish?? :bugeye:

 

[visceral_instinct]

No you shouldn't, and I didn't say his feelings were not valid. He has the right to his feelings, and he has the right to express them and ask for help.

He should understand, though, that his friend simply struggled to cope with pain and failed. Not that he committed a crime. As I said, being angry at someone for committing suicide is like being angry at someone for thrashing about because they are in extreme physical pain.

 

[Orleander]

No you shouldn't, and I didn't say his feelings were not valid. He has the right to his feelings, and he has the right to express them and ask for help.

He should understand, though, that his friend simply struggled to cope with pain and failed. Not that he committed a crime. As I said, being angry at someone for committing suicide is like being angry at someone for thrashing about because they are in extreme physical pain.

Not all people who kill themselves do it out of depression. Some are drunk and mad at their girlfriend. Not every suicide is because of depression

 

[visceral_instinct]

Not all people who kill themselves do it out of depression. Some are drunk and mad at their girlfriend. Not every suicide is because of depression

What were the circumstances here, again?

 

[Orleander]

why? Its either acceptable or its not. Why is doing it in a blind rage with an "I'll show you!" mentality any less acceptable than a person suffering from depression?

 

[ogdred]

no, its your post which is the insult for suffers. I not only STUDY this stuff but i LIVE it as well and you have no idea what your talking about or the hurt that your attitudeds can cause people. "Suck it up, you just lack will power" is one of the most distructive statments you can possably make to someone who suffers depression. IT IS A DISEASE, no less and one with the potentual without (and sometimes even with) treatment to be a lethal one.

Asguard, you misrepresent my position. This is obviously a very emotional issue, one which I don't foresee being resolved here.

It's like saying that referring to someone as 'dying of cancer' is an insult to people who had it and survived.

I addressed the distinction in the post directly prior to your comment here.

My son feels that his friend committed murder. He wants someone to suffer for his friends death. He wants justice. He wants there to be a trial so that there are answers to his friends death.
How do you deal with the anger of it when the person has murdered them self?

Orleander, I think that the best thing you can do is recognize the tragedy of the situation. Be a sounding board for your son, so that he has an outlet for his anger--one which won't judge him or misinterpret his feelings. You can commiserate with him without pretending that you understand exactly how he feels (I think saying "I understand" is a huge mistake in these situations; even two people experiencing the exact same thing could not possibly understand how one another feels). How very awful that people, especially young people, must learn to cope with this sort of thing.

 

[Neverfly]

Orleander: How old is your son?
It seems to me that anger is a natural reaction. No matter what the cause of death may be.

From a Native standpoint; All our lives are made up of memories. Each moment that passes becomes a memory in an instant. It's the memories that count.
A death is a time of celebration for some. To celebrate the memories given and shared.
It is impolite to speak of the dead.
But to remember- is everything.

And any death is a tragedy. An accidental one in which someone slips in a tub and gets knocked out and drowns to a committed crime. How death occurs means nothing to how much weight the memory of life causes one to think of that person in the days that follow.
These memories are a gift to be celebrated. Not the waste of death. Nor the waste of vengeance.

Depending on the age of your son- this may be a developmental experience for him.
On Topic:
visceral_instinct:

being angry at someone for committing suicide is like being angry at someone for thrashing about because they are in extreme physical pain.

This really hits the nail on the head. And maybe Orleander can use these analogies to help his/her son develop emotionally.

This topic hits some personal bits in my past and I've avoided commenting here.
I've lost close people to suicide.
One must remember, that although suicide is self murder, it pertains to a VICTIM dying.
A suicide cannot be treated as much a murderer as a victim. After-all, it was His Life to do with as he chose.
To over-ride deeply ingrained survival instinct, one must be in severe agony.

For the OP: I can add nothing that's been said already.

 

[mordea]

why? Its either acceptable or its not. Why is doing it in a blind rage with an "I'll show you!" mentality any less acceptable than a person suffering from depression?

What the...

Should I tell my son his feelings are selfish??

Tell him suicide is usually a complication of inadequately managed mental illness (be it depression, psychotic illness, or alcoholism).

no, its your post which is the insult for suffers. I not only STUDY this stuff but i LIVE it as well and you have no idea what your talking about or the hurt that your attitudeds can cause people. "Suck it up, you just lack will power" is one of the most distructive statments you can possably make to someone who suffers depression. IT IS A DISEASE, no less and one with the potentual without (and sometimes even with) treatment to be a lethal one.

Pretty much. I wonder how many of the people commenting here actually have clinical depression?

 

[visceral_instinct]

why? Its either acceptable or its not. Why is doing it in a blind rage with an "I'll show you!" mentality any less acceptable than a person suffering from depression?

That's a good point there actually, Orly I think doing something like that indicates a mental illness just as not caring enough to lift your head up (ie depression) does.

 

[Stoniphi]

Many of you folks seem to be very confused about these issues. A couple of points here.

Please bear in mind that I have known several persons who have killed themselves over the years and that I have some substantial background on this topic area. As an adult survivor of extreme and repeated child abuse, for many years I suffered from severe depression and was constantly thinking of suicide. I remember the sweet/sour kiss of the blade and carry the scars to this day. I have been there and turned away. That does not mean that you have to agree with me though, I am not here to argue with you.

Firstly: No, not all suicides are brought about by or caused by "depression". As a point of fact, some are calm, straightforward, logical ways to accomplish something or to avoid dealing with something. How's about all of those Japanese Kamikaze pilots that killed themselves by ramming their aircraft into Allied ships during WW2? Do you really think that they were all depressed soldiers? What about the fellow who dropped on the grenade over in Iraq to save his fellows? I doubt that he did so because he was depressed.

Case in point: One of my wife's best friends (who is going in to have a cancer removed from her breast this week) lost her husband last year - car running in the closed garage. Then she found out that he was in debt for many thousands of dollars. They had been living sort - of high on the hog for quite some time, he said that his business was doing well. It wasn't. He had racked up a lot of serious problems, couldn't see a way out, so he left the situation to my wife's friend to take care of. She is. He was not depressed, just in over his head. Not all self - killings are due to depression.

Secondly: Depression is not comparable to leukemia. Yeah, if you are depressed you sure may think so, but much depression can be successfully 'cured' with decent diet, an exercise program and a couple of hours of bright light every day. People that I have known with leukemia died a slow, miserable death irregardless of what they tried.

..A lot of people scoff at psychotherapy, but it's usually accompanied by an admonition to "suck it up," "grow up," "stop being so silly," "learn to deal with it like I did," "you'll get over it if you'll just muster up some patience," "wait until you have children and then you'll know what real mental pain is," etc.

Uh, they should disregard that type of silliness and see a decent shrink.

Last point for now: Even IV heroin will not kill you unless it has been adulterated with something nasty. Yeah, some of the prescription synthetics will stop your heart and some are considerably more addictive than heroin (not as addictive as tobacco though). A person becomes and addict for a reason or for reasons personal. There is not a spirit in the drug that does it to them or that will kill them - that is all the individuals responsibility. Many OD deaths are purely accidental. The answers here, like many in life, are neither simple or easily understood.

Lets put away those broad paintbrushes and curb the anger - there is no need for that.

 

[dixonmassey]

Suicide is a mental state when one doesn't give rat' arse what people think about acceptability of a suicide or whatever else they might think. Seriously suicidal people don't need anybody's approval and/or affirmation. As far as their concern human race ceases to exist to matter.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Should I tell my son his feelings are selfish?

What he may need to hear most is that they are temporary.

Even IV heroin will not kill you unless it has been adulterated with something nasty. Many OD deaths are purely accidental.

Sometimes they are accidental due to the customer having to mix his own dose, sometimes due to the poor quality control that characterizes the black market: contamination or the wrong proportion. Sometimes they are deliberate: a gangster getting rid of a customer who talks too much or doesn't use discretion.

These are all good examples of why drugs should be re-legalized. My grandfather sold cocaine and heroin in his pharmacy and none of his customers had these problems. He mixed the doses himself, he kept track of how often they were buying it, and if he thought somebody was getting too enthusiastic about it, or perhaps was patronizing a second pharmacist, he'd have a chat with the guy's wife or mother next time she was in the shop buying her laudanum.

 

[Asguard]

Many of you folks seem to be very confused about these issues. A couple of points here.

Please bear in mind that I have known several persons who have killed themselves over the years and that I have some substantial background on this topic area. As an adult survivor of extreme and repeated child abuse, for many years I suffered from severe depression and was constantly thinking of suicide. I remember the sweet/sour kiss of the blade and carry the scars to this day. I have been there and turned away. That does not mean that you have to agree with me though, I am not here to argue with you.

Firstly: No, not all suicides are brought about by or caused by "depression". As a point of fact, some are calm, straightforward, logical ways to accomplish something or to avoid dealing with something. How's about all of those Japanese Kamikaze pilots that killed themselves by ramming their aircraft into Allied ships during WW2? Do you really think that they were all depressed soldiers? What about the fellow who dropped on the grenade over in Iraq to save his fellows? I doubt that he did so because he was depressed.

We call this "self sarcrifice" NOT suicide. There for the point is irrelivent and missleading

Case in point: One of my wife's best friends (who is going in to have a cancer removed from her breast this week) lost her husband last year - car running in the closed garage. Then she found out that he was in debt for many thousands of dollars. They had been living sort - of high on the hog for quite some time, he said that his business was doing well. It wasn't. He had racked up a lot of serious problems, couldn't see a way out, so he left the situation to my wife's friend to take care of. She is. He was not depressed, just in over his head. Not all self - killings are due to depression.

What exactly do you think he was FEELING? "Hey this is a great way to screw the bitch"? Depression is not ONLY biological in origion, for alot of people it has a "real" enviromental cause. Case in point is the amount of men (mainly) who commit suicide with in 1 year of death, divorce or otherwise loss of a partner

Secondly: Depression is not comparable to leukemia. Yeah, if you are depressed you sure may think so, but much depression can be successfully 'cured' with decent diet, an exercise program and a couple of hours of bright light every day. People that I have known with leukemia died a slow, miserable death irregardless of what they tried.

Cured my ass, managed MAYBE by SOME people but no one is cured. This proves you have NO idea what the hell your talking about. Wow you had a couple of people you know comit suicide which OVIOUSLY makes you an expert. Forget those who live it, forget those who spend 6 + plus YEARS studying mental illness before they are alowed to treat ANYONE even UNDER supervision. You oviously know it all.

Uh, they should disregard that type of silliness and see a decent shrink.

As i said

Last point for now: Even IV heroin will not kill you unless it has been adulterated with something nasty. Yeah, some of the prescription synthetics will stop your heart and some are considerably more addictive than heroin (not as addictive as tobacco though). A person becomes and addict for a reason or for reasons personal. There is not a spirit in the drug that does it to them or that will kill them - that is all the individuals responsibility. Many OD deaths are purely accidental. The answers here, like many in life, are neither simple or easily understood.

Lets put away those broad paintbrushes and curb the anger - there is no need for that.

HAAHAHAHAH, yes all deaths are due to other chemicals, right. Then why exactly do the ambos carry narloxone? Oh right to cure the magical type 2 (wont breath) respitory failure which oviously has NOTHING to do with the narcotic overdose blocking the CO2, O2, and PH detectors in the aortic arch, the caroted arteries and the Pons from being transmitted to the medulla and the signals from the medulla from being transmitted down to the diaphram and the intercostal mussles. No that couldnt POSSABLY be the reason