What church should I try?

[davewhite04]

Cris,

You cannot use logic to disprove God, I would have thought you'd have learned this by now. Your arguments might make some people doubt there beliefs but would that changed the world for the better?

Your god, science, simply cannot answer all the questions. For example, if someone creates a universe one day, that would only proove that intelligence was behind it.

I tend to agree with water, this is an ego thing.

If you want to change some religious folks mind using logic, then talk to some suicide bombers that are currently causing chaos in the world by killing innocent people then at least your position would not be so egotistical.

Dave

 

[okinrus]

I was expecting someone to ask that, especially when one of the objections to Christian evangelism is that we don’t like religion being pushed in our face.

1. It’s tremendous fun debating face-to-face on contentious issues.

2. It helps me practice thinking on my feet (brain and memory training). Sciforums debates are fine but we always have plenty of time to research the correct answers. Face-to-face debates are far more difficult - I like the challenge.

3. Without significant opposition any statements made are erroneously assumed to be accepted and true.

4. The persecution of atheists over the millennia has effectively silenced them to where they are fearful of the odds against them. That apathy needs to change otherwise the religionists will continue to dominate, at least in the USA. Religion appears to be rapidly dying in the more advanced countries of Europe; I’d like to help make it die in the USA as well.

5. I truly believe that if more people saw religion as not providing any real answers that there would be a massively greater motivation to use science to solve our problems. That would be very good news for my own personal well being and ultimate survival.

6. I see the widespread acceptance of religion here in the US as a serious wrong that needs to be righted and my nature tends to be proactive.

7. While I respect the idea that every individual is free to believe whatever they wish I feel that the magnitude of religious belief has achieved a level of independent momentum that too many go along with the ideas out of peer pressure and culture as opposed to individual determination. I am not so much opposing the individuals but the meme of religion acceptance that has spread out of control.

8. While the religious evangelist attempts to convert others by stating what people should believe; my approach is more about teaching how to decide what to believe or not to believe based on clear thinking rather than indoctrination.

9. I don't think a live and let live policy is acceptable all the time the religionists play by different rules. If I want to preserve my way of life then I must actively defend it and fight for it.

You could try non-denominational churches, but there they'd be more interested in converting you than debating you. Lutherans and Presbytarians seem too service based. Liberal churches that tend to accept people of vastly different views might also have debates, but the atheist, agnostic, and religious societies is your best bet, I think.

 

[Cris]

Davewhite,

You cannot use logic to disprove God, I would have thought you'd have learned this by now.

I’m not about trying to disprove a god, but trying to encourage people to see reason.

Your arguments might make some people doubt there beliefs but would that changed the world for the better?

To have a world based on reason rather than illogic – gosh what a choice.

Your god, science, simply cannot answer all the questions.

But god fantasies have not and can’t answer any.

For example, if someone creates a universe one day, that would only proove that intelligence was behind it.

Unless of course they only had animal instincts and were driven to it, in which case intelligence doesn’t come into it.

I tend to agree with water, this is an ego thing.

And that is wrong because?

If you want to change some religious folks mind using logic, then talk to some suicide bombers that are currently causing chaos in the world by killing innocent people

But they take their lead from the irrational institutions they follow. If people were properly taught to think then religions wouldn’t exist and we wouldn’t have suicide bombers. The basis for their actions is religion. Remove the basis and we solve the problem.

 

[Cris]

okinrus,

Many thanks for the guidance.

 

[davewhite04]

Cris,


I’m not about trying to disprove a god, but trying to encourage people to see reason.


So you think that just because someone has faith in God they have abandoned reason in everything? How foolish.


To have a world based on reason rather than illogic – gosh what a choice.


I don't know what world you live in, but here in the UK we have adopted atheism with open hands(as well as other things), churches are being turned into art galleries etc. The economy is good, but what a state this country is in. I fail to see what good has come out of lack of faith in God myself, it's just pure speculation on your part.


But god fantasies have not and can’t answer any.


We leave science up to science. However if you want to get a theory of where we came from, then Genesis is as good as anything science has to offer.


Unless of course they only had animal instincts and were driven to it, in which case intelligence doesn’t come into it.


So you think it's possible for a monkey to create a universe?


And that is wrong because?


It's up to you what you do. I actually find debating interesting like yourself, and prefer to do it in the flesh, so hopefully you'll find like minded Christians. But if you come to the table without any interest whatsoever in listening to what people say then is that fair on the people you are debating? It's just a complete lack of respect if you ask me.


But they take their lead from the irrational institutions they follow. If people were properly taught to think then religions wouldn’t exist and we wouldn’t have suicide bombers. The basis for their actions is religion. Remove the basis and we solve the problem.

Listen. Many atheists/agnostics nevermind theists are not properly taught how to think, they just live their lives as best they can. Your crusade which is only targetting one religion tells me that you have got a massive chip on your shoulder and your taking it out on Christians, this is not uncommon. So we'll forget all the good religion is doing in the world(and has done) just for the actions of a few nutcases, that used it to justify their actions, good idea, the world will be like paradise with no religion, just think about it.

 

[c20H25N3o]

If people were properly taught to think then religions wouldn’t exist

So because we cannot see a graviton, we should not postulate it's existence?
According to your logic, if it cannot be seen or measured then it does not exist right?

peace

c20

 

[KennyJC]

I don't know what world you live in, but here in the UK we have adopted atheism with open hands(as well as other things), churches are being turned into art galleries etc. The economy is good, but what a state this country is in. I fail to see what good has come out of lack of faith in God myself, it's just pure speculation on your part.

You would say that. But the UK is doing well. The only thing that is creating friction in society is with the way the government is trying to deal with religious muslims. And again, this just comes down to religion creating tensions in society.

You should count yourself lucky you live in a secular nation as the facts show society is healthier as a result.

 

[Cris]

Davewhite,

So you think that just because someone has faith in God they have abandoned reason in everything? How foolish.

It would have been had I said that.

I don't know what world you live in, but here in the UK we have adopted atheism with open hands(as well as other things), churches are being turned into art galleries etc. The economy is good, but what a state this country is in. I fail to see what good has come out of lack of faith in God myself, it's just pure speculation on your part.

Yup – the void left by abandoning religion needs to be filled with rational morality. The transition is going to be painful.

However if you want to get a theory of where we came from, then Genesis is as good as anything science has to offer.

Such fiction doesn’t represent a theory. Worse is when people assert that it is true. What is wrong with simply agreeing that we don’t know yet?

So you think it's possible for a monkey to create a universe?

My point is that there is no evidence to support the idea that anything complex results from intelligence. Man is our only example of intelligence and he has never built anything complex. Everything that appears complex was the result of something simpler. The evolution of the computer for example could be traced back to the time the first caveman marked a stick with his first kill. In this case intelligence isn’t the source but just one component in an evolutionary process.

But if you come to the table without any interest whatsoever in listening to what people say then is that fair on the people you are debating? It's just a complete lack of respect if you ask me.

OK, yes I understand. One of my greatest failings in the past has been my tendency to side with the other person’s point of view, makes me a terrible salesman and a sucker for a strong salesman. That is my personal challenge, to control the emotional side and tackle the issue purely from the intellectual and logical. As I have said earlier, a confrontational approach cannot be effective. And it is necessary to understand the opponent.

Many atheists/agnostics nevermind theists are not properly taught how to think, they just live their lives as best they can.

Agreed, most simply follow the current fashions, much like sheep or lemmings. Very few on either side give the issues serious thought.

Your crusade which is only targetting one religion tells me that you have got a massive chip on your shoulder and your taking it out on Christians, this is not uncommon.

Or payback from my entire British school life being subjected to daily Christian worship and religious instruction. So Christian evangelists are allowed with impunity to force themselves in our faces but I’m not. Isn’t that hypocrisy on your part?

So we'll forget all the good religion is doing in the world(and has done) just for the actions of a few nutcases, that used it to justify their actions, good idea, the world will be like paradise with no religion, just think about it.

No I have to agree that simply the removal of religion isn’t going to solve our problems. It needs to be replaced with a rational structure. The trick is to replace the crumbling crutch of religion with something substantial.

 

[Cris]

C20,

So because we cannot see a graviton, we should not postulate it's existence?
According to your logic, if it cannot be seen or measured then it does not exist right?

No, you are free to speculate as much as you like, but do not assert them true until you can demonstrate some evidence.

Disbelieving a proposition is not the same thing as believing it is false.

 

[genep]

All religions have a problem except one. No matter where you go you are always there. Except in the church of thoughtless-silence called meditation.
In thoughtless-silence you will sooner or later have to Realize that you need the disorder and chaos of a church or religion like a toothache.

 

[Cris]

In thoughtless silence you will not realize anything since to realize something is a thought.

 

[davewhite04]

The only thing that is creating friction in society is with the way the government is trying to deal with religious muslims. And again, this just comes down to religion creating tensions in society.

The only thing that is causing social friction in the UK is the way the goverment is dealing with religious Muslims? Are you smoking pot?

This link suggests that religion has a very small part to play in regards of crimes in the UK(Scotland in this link, but it is a fair example), in fact it isn't even mentioned. Can you provide any figures that show Christianity is causing social friction in the UK?

 

[davewhite04]

Cris,


It would have been had I said that.


Apologies, another disadvantage with debating online, so many misunderstandings arise.


Such fiction doesn’t represent a theory. Worse is when people assert that it is true. What is wrong with simply agreeing that we don’t know yet?


Well neither of us can be certain what did actually happen at the birth of the Universe. The difference between us is that you believe the Bible is complete fiction and I don't so obviously our opinions are going to clash.


My point is that there is no evidence to support the idea that anything complex results from intelligence.


Interesting. So who invented the word complex?


Man is our only example of intelligence and he has never built anything complex.


I would say that a telephone system is complex, but obviously you don't agree, or did I misunderstand something?


Everything that appears complex was the result of something simpler.


I see where you're coming from actually But lets disect your example of the caveman.

The caveman marks the number of kills he achieved in one day, on a wall.

A computer is invented that makes this task more efficient.

My example is short, but can you see the flaw in your example?

I mean you could call a scientific theory "complex", we can only apply the word to us and not some super humans or gods. Newton, when the apple dropped and a moment of inspiration arose, he made it look easy but it was complex (the workings of the universe). Fair enough we didn't create the universe, but that doesn't make his work any less complex, if you see what I mean.


OK, yes I understand. One of my greatest failings in the past has been my tendency to side with the other person’s point of view, makes me a terrible salesman and a sucker for a strong salesman.That is my personal challenge, to control the emotional side and tackle the issue purely from the intellectual and logical. As I have said earlier, a confrontational approach cannot be effective. And it is necessary to understand the opponent.


You lost me with this reply.


Or payback from my entire British school life being subjected to daily Christian worship and religious instruction. So Christian evangelists are allowed with impunity to force themselves in our faces but I’m not. Isn’t that hypocrisy on your part?


It sounds like you have had a bad experience with the religion, I don't know the details but I sympathise with you, I myself never had this experience. I have got a friend who was a nervous wreck because of this Catholic school he attended when he was younger. Now he's happy, married and has kids, but the memories are still there. Is this Christianities fault? Did Jesus command that everyone must be taught the Bible in school?


No I have to agree that simply the removal of religion isn’t going to solve our problems. It needs to be replaced with a rational structure. The trick is to replace the crumbling crutch of religion with something substantial.

I honestly cannot see the negative patterns you see with my religion, I can see them clearly with one other specific religion but not mine. You might say I'm blinded, but what is so bad about people singing hymns together once or twice a week and doing charitable work? This is all most Christian churches I know do. If you argue you want it removed from schools, then you already have your wish, but to remove something from society actually reduces the choices people have(I have no idea what you plan to replace it with) when they are old enough to look into things like philosophy and religion for themselves.

Just because you think it's garbage, it doesn't mean it is garbage.

 

[Cris]

DaveWhite,

Well neither of us can be certain what did actually happen at the birth of the Universe. The difference between us is that you believe the Bible is complete fiction and I don't so obviously our opinions are going to clash.

Not quite. The claims of the bible are fantasy because no one can show otherwise.

I would say that a telephone system is complex, but obviously you don't agree, or did I misunderstand something?

Looks like you did misunderstand. Show me the man who invented the modern telephone system. You can’t. It wasn’t created, it evolved from simpler systems going way back to when we discovered electricity and made use of simple wires. Man’s intelligence was just a catalyst as part of that evolutionary process.

The caveman marks the number of kills he achieved in one day, on a wall.

A computer is invented that makes this task more efficient.

My example is short, but can you see the flaw in your example?

You’ve neglected to mention the millions of years of small steps in between that forms an evolutionary process not an act of creation, i.e. the modern computer evolved and wasn’t created, and is still evolving.

It sounds like you have had a bad experience with the religion, I don't know the details but I sympathise with you, I myself never had this experience.

LOL, not a bad experience just a terrible waste of time and deflection of thought.

I honestly cannot see the negative patterns you see with my religion, I can see them clearly with one other specific religion but not mine…

I can provide a list but firstly why spend time believing something fervently and with conviction that cannot be shown to have any truth to it?

Just because you think it's garbage, it doesn't mean it is garbage.

But more importantly you cannot show it isn’t garbage; I’m not the one believing in it.

 

[davewhite04]

Cris,


Not quite. The claims of the bible are fantasy because no one can show otherwise.


Well based on this logic, the big bang theory is also fantasy.


Looks like you did misunderstand. Show me the man who invented the modern telephone system. You can’t. It wasn’t created, it evolved from simpler systems going way back to when we discovered electricity and made use of simple wires. Man’s intelligence was just a catalyst as part of that evolutionary process.


Just because one man didn't "invent" the telephone system that doesn't make it any less of a complex job for someone to create, does it? I would class the light bulb as complex, and I think Thomas Edison invented that. This is a very weak argument Cris, it is bordering on absurd.

Do you think man now is more intelligent then they were when they built the pyramids(just out of interest)?


You’ve neglected to mention the millions of years of small steps in between that forms an evolutionary process not an act of creation, i.e. the modern computer evolved and wasn’t created, and is still evolving.


The first light bulb didn't evolve. Unless you try to connect it a lantern or candle


I can provide a list but firstly why spend time believing something fervently and with conviction that cannot be shown to have any truth to it?


There is plenty of truth in it, you just choose to ignore it. Do you believe Jesus Christ actually was a historical person?


But more importantly you cannot show it isn’t garbage; I’m not the one believing in it.

I think I can show you it isn't all garbage actually, but if you don't open your eyes then it'll be like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[Godless]

Well based on this logic, the big bang theory is also fantasy.

Actually it may just be fantasy, and furthermore supported by religious beliefs.

click

Another link: Click

Godless

 

[Cris]

Davewhite,

Well based on this logic, the big bang theory is also fantasy.

Unlike religious claims scientific theories aren’t presented as assertions of truth, they are always held as the best explanations available for observed and detected phenomena but with the full acceptance that they might be found faulty. Religious fantasies are the opposite – they are asserted as absolute truth with no allowance for contradiction.

Just because one man didn't "invent" the telephone system that doesn't make it any less of a complex job for someone to create, does it? I would class the light bulb as complex, and I think Thomas Edison invented that. This is a very weak argument Cris, it is bordering on absurd.

I’m not sure you understand the issue yet. Edison could not have completed his invention without the prior developments of glass, metals, electricity, generators, and a vast host of prior scientific and technological apparatus that he used. All he did was move the evolutionary process forward slightly.

Do you think man now is more intelligent then they were when they built the pyramids(just out of interest)?

No I suspect there is little difference. Then why didn’t the ancient Egyptians create the modern computer since it is incredibly useful? They couldn’t because there were too many evolutionary steps still to come. Intelligence alone is just a part of evolutionary processes not a substitute. Outside of evolutionary processes intelligence is near to useless. This pretty much destroys the justification for the universe being created outside of evolution.

I challenge you to present anything meaningfully complex that was the sole result of man’s intelligence that didn’t depend on some prior development or idea.

The first light bulb didn't evolve. Unless you try to connect it a lantern or candle

There you go you are beginning to understand. All the components and equipment used to develop and test the idea of the light bulb was the result of centuries of prior evolutionary developments.

There is plenty of truth in it, you just choose to ignore it.

Why not try presenting some credible evidence then rather than making mere assertions.

Do you believe Jesus Christ actually was a historical person?

No, since there is no credible historical evidence.

I think I can show you it isn't all garbage actually, but if you don't open your eyes then it'll be like banging my head against a brick wall.

Try – you have only made assertions to date. Remember that religionists gave up trying to present evidence or proofs long ago and have insisted ever since that faith was all that was needed. Faith simply means being convinced that something is true without proof – i.e. the definition of irrationality.

 

[davewhite04]

Cris,


Unlike religious claims scientific theories aren’t presented as assertions of truth, they are always held as the best explanations available for observed and detected phenomena but with the full acceptance that they might be found faulty. Religious fantasies are the opposite – they are asserted as absolute truth with no allowance for contradiction.


To be fair, both theists and atheistic scientists can come across as being full of self belief, to the point of being stubborn. I agree that scientific theories aren’t presented as assertions of truth, it’s just the people who talk about these theories that do present them as assertions of the truth, and this can be said about Bible bashers too.


I’m not sure you understand the issue yet. Edison could not have completed his invention without the prior developments of glass, metals, electricity, generators, and a vast host of prior scientific and technological apparatus that he used. All he did was move the evolutionary process forward slightly.


I see what you are saying and it is a fascinating subject. But just because a light bulb is made of something that already exists, doesn’t mean its any less complex.


No I suspect there is little difference. Then why didn’t the ancient Egyptians create the modern computer since it is incredibly useful? They couldn’t because there were too many evolutionary steps still to come. Intelligence alone is just a part of evolutionary processes not a substitute. Outside of evolutionary processes intelligence is near to useless. This pretty much destroys the justification for the universe being created outside of evolution.


I agree there is little difference. It is a good question regarding the Egyptians though… So I guess that if intelligence is a part of the evolution process then we need a few thousand or million years yet to notice a significant change in intelligence? But judging by your hopes of living forever, we are pretty much intelligent enough now to concentrate on conquering the universe possibly. Doesn’t this sudden surge of knowledge go against the theory of evolution btw?


I challenge you to present anything meaningfully complex that was the sole result of man’s intelligence that didn’t depend on some prior development or idea.


As the Bible said (thousands of years ago), nothing new under the Sun


Why not try presenting some credible evidence then rather than making mere assertions.


Do you think it is possible to predict the future? I would think not… so consider the following.


No, since there is no credible historical evidence.


A book was written well over a thousand years ago that talked about a man called Jesus. In this book the main character(Jesus) predicted that many people will come along after he died and claim to be him.

Today and in the past many people have strangely enough done exactly what this man said.

If this man didn’t exist, then the author could predict the future, but how many fiction writers do you know of that can predict the future, please provide evidence.

Someone knew the future in my opinion, and it is just complete ignorance if this isn’t considered.

Hmm why would the author want to write books if he had this gift...


Try – you have only made assertions to date. Remember that religionists gave up trying to present evidence or proofs long ago and have insisted ever since that faith was all that was needed. Faith simply means being convinced that something is true without proof – i.e. the definition of irrationality.

If faith simply meant the definition of irrationality then we could remove one word from the dictionary.

 

[Godless]

A book was written well over a thousand years ago that talked about a man called Jesus. In this book the main character(Jesus) predicted that many people will come along after he died and claim to be him.

Which Jesus was that, there were several BTW.
click

If this man didn’t exist, then the author could predict the future, but how many fiction writers do you know of that can predict the future, please provide evidence.

Jules Verne; From the Earth to the Moon
H.G. Wells; The War in the Air (BTW this book was written before the airplane actually was invented)

Someone knew the future in my opinion, and it is just complete ignorance if this isn’t considered.

Heck when it comes to predicting the future, Nostradamus predicted lots more things than the bible.

Godless

 

[Einstuck]

God's sun shines on the just and the unjust.