What caused you to turn away from your faith?

[Billy T]

You could interpret it that way if you chose, but that doesn't add up to evidence. To have actual evidence, you need something that isn't subject to arbitrary re-interpretation...

Of course Genesis is not evidence for God. It is merely a report of the belief of the writers. I never said Genesis was evidence: As counter to your point (2) I said: "But there is evidence for the God of the Bible, scientific evidence called the Big Bang."

Clearly I am saying that the "scientific evidence" is the big bang, not Genesis. I only note that the activities of God as described in Genesis about the creation of the universe down to man are similar to the description of modern science about this same chain of events.

Note the part now bold above: God of the bible. (Describing which god) I did not say there is evidence of God in the bible - that would be circular reasoning - something a convinced Christian might do. To make the point clear the modern Big Bang does not give evidence for the god of the Greeks (or the predecessors of Zeus) BB not does not give evidence of any other God of the X book or legend that I know of. Only the bible's report bears some resemblance as far as I know to the same sequence of events described, crudely in Geneses' terminology and more accurately in modern science terms.

For example there has not always been a strong similarity between the biblical and scientific stories of creation - there was not even a creation event when Hoyle's steady state universe was the accepted scientific POV.

 

[Acitnoids]

Nutter,
Obviously the part were I said "God was evil" got under your skin. As it should have but not for the reason you cited. Your post is, sadly, a cut and paste from the essay you linked to. That article was overloaded with nonsensical assumptions. I'm not trying to insult you or convert anyone. What I do know is that, I was (falsely) accused of practicing witchcraft by my peers. A little more than three-hundred years ago this would have guaranteed my death. Wrong is wrong no matter the circumstance. Humans are the ones that don't fully understand this.

 

[Adstar]

Once again, these were just questions which had nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence of God. 1 Samuel 15 clearly states that God commanded the genocide of the Amalekites many generations after they attacked the Israelites as they fled Egypt. Why would anyone follow a God that condones mass murder against a people who had nothing to do with the original transgression? The depiction of God in 1 Samuel 15 is an evil one, period. Unless of course you can somehow justify genocide.

If He is God. And He is God, then not to follow Him is madness. His ways are above our ways and His thoughts are correct. You have judged God and declared Him evil and you base this on your own judgement that is faulty and imperfect. Pride comes before destruction and the prideful trust in their own judgement.

Ask any scholar how Jesus fulfilled this prophecy and what it means for us today and they will lead you to those same chapters in the Bible. The destruction of the temple came with his death and it being rebuilt in three days came with his resurrection.

Once again what is the link between the 3 day prophecy and the original scripture we where discussing? You have not demonstrated the link.

My church took the words of the Bible very literally. The first rainfall described in the Bible was that of the flood but in Genesis 2:4-6 it clearly describes the conditions for making rainbows even though "God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,".

This is describing the state of affairs during creation. Not at the time of Noah.

Genesis 2
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Once again. No scripture that proves that rain and rainbows did not happen before the flood.

And anyway even if rain did not happen before the flood why would that be a basis for saying that the bible is stating that refraction and reflection did not exist before the first rain fell????

This is weird. You are stating that because there where no rainbows before rain fell that the bible is claiming that refraction and reflection did not exist before the first rain fell. Why am i wasting my time even discussing this imaginary point with you. There is no basis for the discussion.

In Genesis 9:14, God said "And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:". What does that say about the existence of refraction and reflection (the cause of rainbows and eyesight) before the flood seeing that this wasthe first time anyone had seen a rainbow. Maybe you can give me a verse which states that rainfall and rainbows did exist before the flood.

LOL the point is irrelevant. Where is the bible claiming that refraction and reflection did not exist before rain fell on earth?

No I did not.

Yes you did. You stated that all the churches where condemed. while the scriptures state that they where receiving a warning and a call to repentance here:

Acitnoids

In the book of Revelations, God judges the twelve churches by extinguishing their lampflames one by one. All will be condemned and yet people are still willing to die for the teachings of their church.

Stop lying please.

Is this indicative to how you interpret the Bible?

I am showing clearly how you are unable to interpret the Bible. Like most anti-christ you cannot even read it with basic comprehension.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Adstar
If He is God. And He is God, then not to follow Him is madness. His ways are above our ways and His thoughts are correct.

Comments like this fascinate me. You will never hear me say something like this because, in my mind, it just sounds so cadenced and delusional. We learn by questioning things, not by accepting stories as fact. This is why I asked those questions way back then.

This is describing the state of affairs during the creation. Not the time of Noah.

I am fully aware of its context, thank you. But the fact still remains, nowhere between these two events does it say that God caused it rain until He opened the floodgates of heaven seven chapters later. This is what my childhood chruch believed and what caused me to question them.

Why am I wasting my time even discussing this imaginary point with you. There is no basis for the discussion.

Agreed. There is no evidence for a global flood (which would have happened something like five to six thousand years ago) so my questioning of such events are indeed imaginary points.

Yes you did. You stated that all the churches where condemed.

If I said that "I will do something", does that mean that I had already done it? Either way, this is inconsequential. I reiterated myself which should have clearified your misinterpretation.

I am showing clearly how you are unable to interpret the Bible.

No, what you're doing is the exact same thing that my childhood church had done. Instead of addressing my questions you have spun them into some type of anti-christ interpretation. You have repeatedly attacked the validity of the questions instead of answering them. I mean, you're not going to hear me argue against your statements that my churches belief system was wrong because they are all wrong. Each denomination can't even agree on one interpretation of the Bible so what makes you so sure that yours is the correct one?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

We learn by questioning things, not by accepting stories as fact.

*************
M*W: Amen!

 

[John99]

“
Originally Posted by John99
But what is an atheist labeling themselves after? If something does not exist then you cannot label yourself after it in any way.
”

Originally Posted by phlogistician:

Of course you can. I'm also an 'adoomblethwanger'. Doomblethwangers don't exist, and I do not believe in them either.

I dont think you understand the point. I am saying that Atheism CANNOT exist based on all the facts and the circumstances involved.

IF god were proven to exist Atheism would no longer exist.

IF god were proven NOT to exist Atheism would no longer exist.

Therefore, Atheism (by its own definition) CANNOT exist.

 

[John99]

To answer the OP:

I was not raised religiously and my parents never brought religion up and never ran into anyone religious.

 

[glaucon]

Therefore, Atheism (by its own definition) CANNOT exist.

Incorrect.

You're assuming that existence, and thereby definitions, can only be positive.

Like 'God', Santa Clause has a definition. Regardless of this fact, there are for each, two groups: those who believe, and those that do not.

Before 1859 there was no definition for the Theory of Evolution by natural selection. Does this then mean that adherents to a preceding contrary theory cannot exist as such?

My answer to the OP: I haven't turned away from my faith; logic, science and reason have proven to be quite effective.

 

[Sock puppet path]

“
Originally Posted by John99
But what is an atheist labeling themselves after? If something does not exist then you cannot label yourself after it in any way.
”



I dont think you understand the point. I am saying that Atheism CANNOT exist based on all the facts and the circumstances involved.

IF god were proven to exist Atheism would no longer exist.

IF god were proven NOT to exist Atheism would no longer exist.

Therefore, Atheism (by its own definition) CANNOT exist.

Do theists exist as a group defined by a belief in a deity? We have created language and label things to facilitate communicating ideas.

 

[Billy T]

Just heard a Mark Twain quote for theists to consider:

"It ain't the things that you don't know that 'gets ya.' It's the things you know 'for sure' that ain't so."

 

[Adstar]

Comments like this fascinate me. You will never hear me say something like this because, in my mind, it just sounds so cadenced and delusional. We learn by questioning things, not by accepting stories as fact. This is why I asked those questions way back then.

Why So. Your not perfect so your thought process of questioning things and trying to bring forth resion to explain things is not perfect either. So you rely on your eternal destination by replying on a faulty foundation of your own thought process.

I am fully aware of its context, thank you. But the fact still remains, nowhere between these two events does it say that God caused it rain until He opened the floodgates of heaven seven chapters later. This is what my childhood chruch believed and what caused me to question them.

Once again i could not give a brass razoo for what your church taught. Nowhere in the same scripture does it say that it never rained between the time after creation and the flood. Therefore you cannot state it didn't with any authority.

Agreed. There is no evidence for a global flood (which would have happened something like five to six thousand years ago) so my questioning of such events are indeed imaginary points.

Mischievous distorting reply. Your smartass ability only shows the deceit within.

If I said that "I will do something", does that mean that I had already done it? Either way, this is inconsequential. I reiterated myself which should have clearified your misinterpretation.

LOL Just admit you where wrong. Most of your thinking is.

No, what you're doing is the exact same thing that my childhood church had done. Instead of addressing my questions you have spun them into some type of anti-christ interpretation.

No that is not what your doing. You are wanting your questions answered without having your pride dented by being shown your questions are faulty. You want me to paly my part in arguing for your churches traditions. Well stuff your church traditions. I will stand for what i am convicted to stand for.

You have repeatedly attacked the validity of the questions instead of answering them.

That’s right because they are invalid.

I mean, you're not going to hear me argue against your statements that my churches belief system was wrong because they are all wrong.

Oh yeah?? These same beliefs you are defending as being true to scripture because you want to justify your rejection of God.

Hey i have seen a few X churchys in here doing exactly the same thing. They will fight tooth and nail to defend their former religions as true, so they can use their straw man churches to justify their rejection of God. But in the end no such straw man burnings will justify rejection of the true will of God.

Each denomination can't even agree on one interpretation of the Bible so what makes you so sure that yours is the correct one?

I am extremely confident in The God of Abraham and in the atonement of the Messiah Emmanuel (God with Us). I have seen the future. I know that the future is already known.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Your not perfect so your thought process of questioning things and trying to bring forth resion to explain things is not perfect either. So you rely on your eternal destination by replying on a faulty foundation of your own thought process.

*************
M*W: I don't know why it is, but I have to force myself to comment on anything you post. I feel like a 6th grade English teacher who is so tempted to give you a grade when I read your*cough*English composition. Not surprisingly, you always receive a failing grade in everything you say.

With that said... How do you know what anyone else's thought processes or questioning abilities are when you yourself are incapable of such reasoning?

Once again i could not give a brass razoo for what your church taught. Nowhere in the same scripture does it say that it never rained between the time after creation and the flood. Therefore you cannot state it didn't with any authority.

*************
M*W: This church says tomayto, that church said tomahto... blecch!

But when, on this dirty old rock, did you become annointed with any kind of authority? You can't even communicate in proper English... and isn't that your mother tongue?

Your smartass ability only shows the deceit within.

*************
M*W: No. One's "smartass ability" shows perfection in one's mental acuity and wit. I've known a lot of smart asses in my day, and I've been accused of being one, but you, my friend, are no smart ass.

You are wanting your questions answered without having your pride dented by being shown your questions are faulty..

*************
M*W: How do you know his questions are "faulty?" Just because you cannot comprehend his question, that doesn't make the question "faulty."

I will stand for what i am convicted to stand for

*************
M*W: And we shall laugh as ye hoist on thy own petard (Sorry WS).

Oh yeah?? These same beliefs you are defending as being true to scripture because you want to justify your rejection of God.

*************
M*W: The defense of one's belief doesn't make that belief untrue just because another has a opposing belief. IOW, the defense of one belief doesn't justify the offense of another, but I know you don't get it.

Hey i have seen a few X churchys in here doing exactly the same thing. They will fight tooth and nail to defend their former religions as true, so they can use their straw man churches to justify their rejection of God. But in the end no such straw man burnings will justify rejection of the true will of God.

*************
M*W: So many churches, so little time... A little poem by Ellen Bailey...

So Many Different Churches

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When there is only one Holy Bible for all to read
There is one church over here and one over there
And they all profess to be THE house of prayer

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When we need to worship with love and in harmony
But man wants to separate his church from the rest
And goes around boasting that his is the very best

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When a church isn't a church, please take heed
The church you attend just might be another house
With all the people inside and the Lord on the out.

I am extremely confident in The God of Abraham and in the atonement of the Messiah Emmanuel (God with Us).

*************
M*W: Your personal confidence in the gods you believe, does not prove these gods exist anywhere except in your own mind. Therefore, your gods do not exist in reality nor do they manifest in the awareness of anyone else. It's really lonely at the top, isn't it, Adstar?

I have seen the future. I know that the future is already known.

*************
M*W: That just about says it all... and now, can we have a drum roll for Adstar, all praise the ancient of fakes... as he slowly fades out into the sunset towards the Pseudoscience Forum...

 

[Dinosaur]

Many threads in this forum make me think of a sign I once saw.

God is okay. It is his fan clubs which cause all the trouble.

In a context like the above, even an atheist is willing to use a phrase suggesting that god exists.

 

[John99]

Incorrect.

You're assuming that existence, and thereby definitions, can only be positive.

Like 'God', Santa Clause has a definition. Regardless of this fact, there are for each, two groups: those who believe, and those that do not.

Before 1859 there was no definition for the Theory of Evolution by natural selection. Does this then mean that adherents to a preceding contrary theory cannot exist as such?

YES. If this theory was proven, beyond any doubt, to be true (well then technically no longer a theory) THEN the alternates believers in the other theory would no longer have a name. No name that would be recognized as something to be taken seriously. Like, for example, Trekkies. The Trekkie knows that what they named themselves after is NOT real. You claim that Atheists know what they DISbelieve in is NOT real yet they still have a name for themselves. The Trekkies know it is fantasy but they name themselves after this fantasy NOT another fantasy.

Santa Claujse has a definition, but its followers do NOT name themselves. Come up with something else and perhaps i would be inclined to accept it becuase that supports my previous assertion.

Bear in mind that i am not saying that the theory behind Atheism cannot exist only that if you KNOW something does not exist then there cannot be a name for it...because it does not exist, so why would there be a name?

 

[John99]

To add to that, the "Trekkie" is a premium example. Here is a fantasy based theme, there are characters, there are leaders\villains in this fantasy world, planets and other paraphernalia. If you take that away then is there a name for non-Trekkies?

 

[John99]

Do theists exist as a group defined by a belief in a deity? We have created language and label things to facilitate communicating ideas.

Yes, to name things that exist. You are saying that Atheists exist as a group defined by not believing in something. How is this possible?

 

[Adstar]

*************
M*W: I don't know why it is, but I have to force myself to comment on anything you post. I feel like a 6th grade English teacher who is so tempted to give you a grade when I read your*cough*English composition. Not surprisingly, you always receive a failing grade in everything you say.

With that said... How do you know what anyone else's thought processes or questioning abilities are when you yourself are incapable of such reasoning?


*************
M*W: This church says tomayto, that church said tomahto... blecch!

But when, on this dirty old rock, did you become annointed with any kind of authority? You can't even communicate in proper English... and isn't that your mother tongue?

*************
M*W: No. One's "smartass ability" shows perfection in one's mental acuity and wit. I've known a lot of smart asses in my day, and I've been accused of being one, but you, my friend, are no smart ass.


*************
M*W: How do you know his questions are "faulty?" Just because you cannot comprehend his question, that doesn't make the question "faulty."


*************
M*W: And we shall laugh as ye hoist on thy own petard (Sorry WS).


*************
M*W: The defense of one's belief doesn't make that belief untrue just because another has a opposing belief. IOW, the defense of one belief doesn't justify the offense of another, but I know you don't get it.


*************
M*W: So many churches, so little time... A little poem by Ellen Bailey...

So Many Different Churches

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When there is only one Holy Bible for all to read
There is one church over here and one over there
And they all profess to be THE house of prayer

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When we need to worship with love and in harmony
But man wants to separate his church from the rest
And goes around boasting that his is the very best

There are many different churches; but how can that be?
When a church isn't a church, please take heed
The church you attend just might be another house
With all the people inside and the Lord on the out.


*************
M*W: Your personal confidence in the gods you believe, does not prove these gods exist anywhere except in your own mind. Therefore, your gods do not exist in reality nor do they manifest in the awareness of anyone else. It's really lonely at the top, isn't it, Adstar?


*************
M*W: That just about says it all... and now, can we have a drum roll for Adstar, all praise the ancient of fakes... as he slowly fades out into the sunset towards the Pseudoscience Forum...

Look MW i have long finished dealing with you. Your focus on my composition is pathetic. Your pride is manifest. What you have to say is of no value.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Adstar
Once again i could not give a brass razoo for what your church taught.

Then why did you ask which questions they couldn't answer? Instead of filling in their gaps you chose to belittle their teachings and me for doubting them. And I'm the one using a straw-man?

You are wanting your questions answered without your pride dented by being shown your questions are faulty. You want me to paly my part in arguing for your churches traditions. Well stuff your churches traditions.

Of course my questions are faulty, after all, they are based on a faulty belief system. And who said that I wanted these questions answered? What YOU are arguing against (as you put it) is the musings of a 14-17 year old boy and the crisis of faith that followed. You should be happy to know that I have taken your advice and "stuffed my former church's traditions" because I too "could not give a brass razoo for what they were teaching".

These same beliefs you are defending as being true to scipture because you want to justify your rejection of God. Hey i have seen a few X churchys in here doing exactly the same thing. They will fight tooth and nail to defend their former religions as true, so they can use their straw man churches to justify their rejection of God.

Let me be as clear as I can. I will not defend any belief system as being true because they are all faulty. As a matter of fact, I reject ALL man made religion. By placing your belief system on the same pedestal as God you have proven to all of us that you're incapable of distinguishing between the two. Thank you for helping me make my point.

I am extremely confident in The God of Abraham and in the atonement of the Messiah Emmanuel (God with Us).

Good for you. I imagine Allah (The God of Abraham) will be happy to know this.

Originally Posted by Acitnoids
I could go on and on but in the end it would lead to nowhere.

Wow, I must be clairvoyant.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Look MW i have long finished dealing with you. Your focus on my composition is pathetic. Your pride is manifest. What you have to say is of no value.

*************
M*W: Oooh, you scare me... you really, really scare me.

As long as you write something illegibly that could and should be contradicted, I will continue contradicting it and correcting your pathetic grasp of the English language.

This is not about me being too proud to believe your understanding of the of Ayn Sof (Hebrew) or Atik Yomin (Aramaic). Apparently no one else understands it either. It's also about your failing to prove there is any god out there, not even your favorite one, the Ancient of Days.

I believe what I write, correct, or educate you or anyone else about about is of value to the other readers of this forum. This isn't just about your not dotting your is or crossing your ts. It is about your continual bastardization of the English Language. When you can master that, maybe you can conquer your m*ther-f*ckerization of the interpretation of the one and only true religion.

 

[Adstar]

Then why did you ask which questions they couldn't answer? Instead of filling in their gaps you chose to belittle their teachings and me for doubting them. And I'm the one using a straw-man?

I asked so i may have the opportunity to answer them, i had the hope that you where not a pride filled person and that my answers might have caused you to question if your rejection of the God of Abraham was based on the true message Of God rather then the traditions of men. A lot of people build their rejection of God based upon the faulty foundations of some religious interpretation of God. Now i always go into these things with Hope for the other but i always realise that 99.9% of the time my attempts to help the other will not work for them. I will take the rejection of the 999 to get the wonderful joy of the 1 who embraces the truth.

Also I did not belittle you for doubting your churchys.

Of course my questions are faulty, after all, they are based on a faulty belief system. And who said that I wanted these questions answered? What YOU are arguing against (as you put it) is the musings of a 14-17 year old boy and the crisis of faith that followed. You should be happy to know that I have taken your advice and "stuffed my former church's traditions" because I too "could not give a brass razoo for what they were teaching".

Let me be as clear as I can. I will not defend any belief system as being true because they are all faulty. As a matter of fact, I reject ALL man made religion. By placing your belief system on the same pedestal as God you have proven to all of us that you're incapable of distinguishing between the two. Thank you for helping me make my point.

You have made no point. Other than reveal yourself.

Good for you. I imagine Allah (The God of Abraham) will be happy to know this.

allah is the name of an arabian idol that was chosen to be the name of the god of Muhammad’s lie. YAVEH is The God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days