What are the benefits of religion?

[New Atheist]

New Atheist,





People take refuge of the Darwinian idea of evolution for the same reasons;

1 they are told to
2 because they follow current trends
3 as they don't have to answer for their action, they can do whatever they like.

I, like you, am sure that there may be billions of other reasons.


)


Religion loosely base their philosophy on scriptures which do not promise anything. They are instructions for how human beings to reach their full human potential. No other discipline concerns itself with such a task.



As an example, Christians like to think that when their lights go out, their spirit goes to heaven. What is the difference between you and the Christian
(apart from the destination)?




How can your acomplishment help the living, when the living are born to die?
Can your acomplisment stop the onslaught of time upon material objects?
Do you have plans for that?


jan.

Hi Jan,

I like your point of view. I was raised Christian (the denomination is irrelevant) and have read the bible cover to cover more than once. I understand what it means to be christian, and I know what it means to be atheist.

I do not take 'Darwinian ideas' because it's the trend it is NOT, or because I was told to - unlike commandments written by mortals - or because its popular - commercialized by celebrations and holidays. No, I did not convert, I just unceremoniously became Atheist - and it was beautiful, because it was grounded in truth. Simple, observable truth. nothing else. There was no element of refuge - and I do not really understand your reference to it, but if anything atheism offers you the opposite - No god as father symbolism, no heaven after death, no being forgiven for any 'sin' committed. None of it. Just one life, here and now.

I take comfort in atheism because, it has two things that life has proven time and a gain - cause and effect. So while Atheism says there is no god to impose judgement, we are also knowledgeable enough to know there will be repercussions (effect) to our actions (cause.) So while you suggest my actions go unchecked, actually, you are incorrect. I find myself even more conscious of my actions as an atheist.

As for "lights out"... well I mean that is it. Christians believe in heaven and hell. I know with every part of me that there is no such thing. No satan, no angel. When we die, we die. And if people stopped kidding them selves, they will see it as well.

Well, the living die, but the species continues and just as we learnt on the backs of those before us, those after us will, from ours. our accomplishments are everything. Without George Washington and that bunch, we'll still be drinking tea. Without Edison's accomplishments we will be in the dark, without Sir Tim, we'd still be using snail mail and newspapers. So we all live on each other's accomplishments.

I dont think I want anything to stop the 'onslaught' of time. All good things must come to an end. If one day, my accomplishments are forgotten, so be it. I have had my fun while I was here so that alone is worth a king's ransom to me. I am not looking for a reward, I do what is right, when I can, because it feels great to do so.

Thanks Jan, please do write more, I love to read what you have to say.

 

[Jan Ardena]

New Atheist,

I like your point of view. I was raised Christian (the denomination is irrelevant) and have read the bible cover to cover more than once. I understand what it means to be christian, and I know what it means to be atheist.

Surely you mean ''I understand what it means to be christian, and I know what it means to be atheist [FOR ME].

No, I did not convert, I just unceremoniously became Atheist - and it was beautiful, because it was grounded in truth.

Atheism - ''beautifull'', ''grounded in truth''?
Fascinating descriptions

Simple, observable truth. nothing else.

Ah! ''The Emporers New Clothes'' syndrome.

There was no element of refuge - and I do not really understand your reference to it, but if anything atheism offers you the opposite - No god as father symbolism, no heaven after death, no being forgiven for any 'sin' committed. None of it. Just one life, here and now.

There are millions and millions of atheists, and atheistic people around the world. I wasn't refering to anyone, or type.

I take comfort in atheism because, it has two things that life has proven time and a gain - cause and effect

That doesn't make sense.

So while Atheism says there is no god to impose judgement, we are also knowledgeable enough to know there will be repercussions (effect) to our actions (cause.)

Ultimately we are slave to our senses, the work we willingly perform is a bid to satisfy the senses. This work includes acquiring knowledge. You have already proved me right by pretending to have control of your senses via ''knowledge''.

So while you suggest my actions go unchecked, actually, you are incorrect. I find myself even more conscious of my actions as an atheist.

Really?
Define 'atheist actions'?

As for "lights out"... well I mean that is it. Christians believe in heaven and hell. I know with every part of me that there is no such thing. No satan, no angel. When we die, we die. And if people stopped kidding them selves, they will see it as well.

Don't you mean, if people believe as you do, they ''will see it as well''.
But if you don't, please demonstrate how you know these beings do not exist, as opposed to to being one who believes they don't.

Well, the living die, but the species continues and just as we learnt on the backs of those before us, those after us will, from ours. our accomplishments are everything.

What have we learnt from other mortals, that enriches human life, that wasn't
already known via scriptures?
And I don't mean those just of the rich west.

Without George Washington and that bunch, we'll still be drinking tea. Without Edison's accomplishments we will be in the dark, without Sir Tim, we'd still be using snail mail and newspapers. So we all live on each other's accomplishments.

Modern technology is marvelous (of course it is not a contribution of atheism), but if we never had it, I am sure we would still know how to be happy, and live good lives (the point of human existence IMHO)

I remember not have a fridge, tv, package holidays, calculator, cd, tape, record player, and so many other things. Yet as a child I was quite content and happy. Definately no less than children who only regard tehnology as the essential norm.

I dont think I want anything to stop the 'onslaught' of time. All good things must come to an end.

All good things have to come to an end.
So what is the point passing on accomplishment that doesn't uplift the spiritual aspect of the human?

If one day, my accomplishments are forgotten, so be it. I have had my fun while I was here so that alone is worth a king's ransom to me. I am not looking for a reward, I do what is right, when I can, because it feels great to do so.

So for all your nice talk, you're actually selfish then?

Thanks Jan, please do write more, I love to read what you have to say.

Thanks.

jan.

 

[rjr6]

Our current particular consciousness is temporary, BUT our collective consciousness is NOT. In my opinion most people find hope in religion because they are told to. Others, because the follow common practice and still others, with a sense of "what do I have to loose?" I am sure there are 4 billion unique reasons, but i just thought of three.

It also promises an after life. Or the threat of a bad after life (for those who believe in reincarnations)

Personally, I like knowing that once my lights go out, its game over. And the only thing that remains are the accomplishments I have made which help the living. It makes me want to get up every day and do more because I do not have much time left.

so you equate knowing with hope, correct? why does a religious persons's 'knowing' differ from your own? My experience with religious people in general is that they are not practicing so they can get aboard the 'afterlife' cruise ship.

 

[New Atheist]

so you equate knowing with hope, correct? why does a religious persons's 'knowing' differ from your own? My experience with religious people in general is that they are not practicing so they can get aboard the 'afterlife' cruise ship.

RJR, no, I do not see 'hoping' as 'knowing.'

 

[rjr6]

You juxtaposed a religious persons hope against your knowledge of what happens to you when a person dies and the collective consciousness that lives forever. That what was meant about you equating your knowledge=to a religious persons hope.

 

[charles brough]

A New Age?
A New World Order?

jan.

Well, do you think we on track for a better future with the one we have?

 

[spidergoat]

Why is it?

jan.

Because it means nothing to me.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Well, do you think we on track for a better future with the one we have?

No.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Because it means nothing to me.

Why don't you look up the definition of ''grace'', then contextualise?

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

"Simple elegance or refinement of movement"

Nope, I don't have a clue what a state of grace would mean with regard to religion.

 

[New Atheist]

New Atheist,



Surely you mean ''I understand what it means to be christian, and I know what it means to be atheist [FOR ME].

Yes, off course, I'll try to be clearer next time. but yes, i know and understand what it means FOR ME.

Atheism - ''beautifull'', ''grounded in truth''?
Fascinating descriptions

Isn't it tho? Thanks.

Ah! ''The Emporers New Clothes'' syndrome.

No not at all, it does me no good see that which is not there - I have nothing to loose nor gain. So " the emp's new clothes angle doesn't fly" try again

There are millions and millions of atheists, and atheistic people around the world. I wasn't refering to anyone, or type.

cool

That doesn't make sense.

Ok let me explain. Religions, and those who introduce the concept of deities, seem to insert miracles into the story quite a bit. For example - virgin birth, parting the sea, walk on water, etc etc... Its all just too hard to reconcile to our everyday life since I was born. Have you had any mysterious events happen in your life OR has it always been cause and effect?

Ultimately we are slave to our senses, the work we willingly perform is a bid to satisfy the senses. This work includes acquiring knowledge. You have already proved me right by pretending to have control of your senses via ''knowledge''.

Yes in a way. We are driven by the sense of self. Which is directly linked to self preservation and to continue the species.

Really?
Define 'atheist actions'?

Yeah, really.
I am not sure how you'd like me to define it, but I think you misunderstood my original statement. I said: " my actions as an atheist." Meaning my actions ever since I chose this path, not actions I have will because I am an atheist.

Don't you mean, if people believe as you do, they ''will see it as well''.
But if you don't, please demonstrate how you know these beings do not exist, as opposed to to being one who believes they don't.

No, i mean if people stop kidding themselves, thats all there is. not see things the way I do.
I do not need to prove they do not exist, it is a person who believes in them to prove that they do. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if we had to go around proving negatives.

What have we learnt from other mortals, that enriches human life, that wasn't
already known via scriptures?
And I don't mean those just of the rich west.

Wow this list is long and good for a new thread. Well first off, the accurate age of the universe would be good. The origins of man. Take for example Democritus, Galileo, Copernicus, Einstein, Newton, Hawking, and the list is long. Even Gandhi, Franklin, Jefferson, Smith, Paine.... all have contributed leaps and bounds - whether that is more valuable than Constantine's Bishops when they compiled the Bible is up to you.

Modern technology is marvelous (of course it is not a contribution of atheism), but if we never had it, I am sure we would still know how to be happy, and live good lives (the point of human existence IMHO)

Off course its not a contribution of Atheism. Atheism is not a person. It does not take credit for progress, it is a subset of progress - as minds strengthen and leave the nest.

Are you claiming to know what the point of human existence is? Surely you mean FOR ME...lol

I remember not have a fridge, tv, package holidays, calculator, cd, tape, record player, and so many other things. Yet as a child I was quite content and happy. Definately no less than children who only regard tehnology as the essential norm.

I have those things, yet I am still happy. Happiness is not about convenience and contentment. True happiness is about self worth (FOR ME) and accomplishment.

All good things have to come to an end.
So what is the point passing on accomplishment that doesn't uplift the spiritual aspect of the human?

You don't. You live in the here and now with a view to the future. Not the other way around.

So for all your nice talk, you're actually selfish then?

The first thing I can wholeheartedly agree with you. It is our unvarnished self. I have learnt to accept it and be proud of it. There is nothing wrong with being selfish. It's one of the few truths of who we are. Even collaboration is driven by selfishness.



Thanks Jan. Sorry didn't reply sooner. Kept visiting but only for a few minutes at a time. Wanted to sit and write when i had more time, so today was it.

Thanks.

 

[Jan Ardena]

New Atheist,

I understand what it means to be christian, and I know what it means to be atheist.

Yes, off course, I'll try to be clearer next time. but yes, i know and understand what it means FOR ME.

No probs.

Atheism - ''beautifull'', ''grounded in truth''?
Fascinating descriptions

Isn't it tho? Thanks.

I was hoping for an explanation as to why you think so.

No not at all, it does me no good see that which is not there - I have nothing to loose nor gain. So " the emp's new clothes angle doesn't fly" try again

The only reason I use the emps new clothes analogy is because of the claims of obviousness, and the expression ''tons of evidence'' always used in relation to the theory. Whenever I look at the evidence, or it is explained to me, I don't see it.
What I do see and hear is using the evidence to fit the theory.
This isn't bad, but when you are regarded as ''idiot'', ''moron'', ''evolution denier''
and so on, for not seeing it in the same way, it becomes kinda crazy.

cool

Ok let me explain. Religions, and those who introduce the concept of deities, seem to insert miracles into the story quite a bit. For example - virgin birth, parting the sea, walk on water, etc etc... Its all just too hard to reconcile to our everyday life since I was born.

These ''miracles'' aren't performed by ordinary people. That is the first thing
to remember.
Another thing to remember is that God creates through sound vibration, meaning everything we percieve is vibrating particles. That being said, if a being (adept in the knowledge), or God Himself want to change the frequency, why is that so hard to imagine. There used to be (i don't know if it is still present) diciplines where individuals of a certain conscious level could be trained in such practices. I believe they were/are called siddhis, and they practice the art of siddha-yoga.
I'm not saying you should believe this, but it shows that there are explanations for these kind of events.

Have you had any mysterious events happen in your life OR has it always been cause effect?

I have actually, yes.
But I prefer to keep those experiences to myself.

Yes in a way. We are driven by the sense of self. Which is directly linked to self preservation and to continue the species.

What do you mean by ''sense of self''?

Yeah, really.
I am not sure how you'd like me to define it, but I think you misunderstood my original statement. I said: " my actions as an atheist." Meaning my actions ever since I chose this path, not actions I have will because I am an atheist.

Same difference really.
How has you actions changed?

No, i mean if people stop kidding themselves, thats all there is. not see things the way I do.

Some people aren't kidding themselves, and even if they were, you wouldn't know unless they came out and told you.
Because you've no experience of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You're using your worldview to judge.
How do you know it is correct?

I do not need to prove they do not exist, it is a person who believes in them to prove that they do. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if we had to go around proving negatives.

We all know (i'm sure) that this ''you can't prove a negative'' is a get-out clause. It means you can make a claim without having the responsibility to back it up.
If you make a claim, then back it up. Don't play games.

Wow this list is long and good for a new thread. Well first off, the accurate age of the universe would be good.

How does that help the individual?

The origins of man.

The scripture is the only solid information regarding t
the answer to this question.

Take for example Democritus, Galileo, Copernicus, Einstein, Newton, Hawking, and the list is long. Even Gandhi, Franklin, Jefferson, Smith, Paine.... all have contributed leaps and bounds - whether that is more valuable than Constantine's Bishops when they compiled the Bible is up to you.

Everything the folks have taught, the essence is in the scripture.

Off course its not a contribution of Atheism. Atheism is not a person. It does not take credit for progress, it is a subset of progress - as minds strengthen and leave the nest.

You mean like when teenager feel they don't need their parents anymore,
and go off into the big world to experience?

Are you claiming to know what the point of human existence is? Surely you mean FOR ME...lol

Do you know what ''IMHO'' means? lol

All good things have to come to an end.
So what is the point passing on accomplishment that doesn't uplift the spiritual aspect of the human?

You don't. You live in the here and now with a view to the future. Not the other way around.

Yet you make statement like this;

Without George Washington and that bunch, we'll still be drinking tea. Without Edison's accomplishments we will be in the dark, without Sir Tim, we'd still be using snail mail and newspapers. So we all live on each other's accomplishments.

:shrug:

The first thing I can wholeheartedly agree with you. It is our unvarnished self. I have learnt to accept it and be proud of it. There is nothing wrong with being selfish. It's one of the few truths of who we are. Even collaboration is driven by selfishness.

Hmm, I'm not sure we are talking about the same kind of ''selfishness''.
I think the ''me, myself, and I'' type is ultimately bad for real long term progress.

Thanks Jan. Sorry didn't reply sooner. Kept visiting but only for a few minutes at a time. Wanted to sit and write when i had more time, so today was it.

No probs man.

jan.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

 

[charles brough]

Religion provides emotional and psychological support mechanisms, and generally gives some people a better chance to reach their full potential as human beings. This is why I find it impossible to justify a global condemnation of it. Surely it is better for a person who would be otherwise miserable to embrace a set of beliefs that alleviate that misery, even if those beliefs may be false?

Of course I do feel that the benefits derived from religion by the individual should be weighed carefully against any possible impact upon the happiness of other individuals and society as a whole when trying to make a determination about the overall benefit of religion.

I agree! Anything with such an impact on human society for over 100,000 years has to have an evolutionary origin and hence a function. I believe it serves to bind great numbers of people into groups which would be impossible if the people all all had different ways of looking at life and different ways of thinking. We did evolved as SMALL group primates and feel secure only in small groups. People go to the church or mosque because they need to feel that sense of community.

Also, I believe the increase in tension, stress and pessimism about the future comes from the way our ideological systems have all broken down into a chaotic mix of cults, tribes, sects, ethnicities, etc.

And finally, I propose that these ideological systems have all failed because they have been almost static while our science has pushed on ahead. They have become obsolete. They need to be replaced with one that is more science-oriented.

brough
civilization-overview dot com
Sorry, but I do not reply to long, quote-terraced responses which are characteristically filled with nitpicking comments instead of going to the heart of my post and presenting a logical but contrasting point of view.

 

[Regular0ldguy]

Lets step back for a moment and say religion is man-made. (Please note this OP is not about whether religion is man made or not) If so, does it benefit the every day man? Is it hope that keeps man's mind from collapsing under the pressure of everyday life?

It might to some, when it actually enters their mind (most believers don't think about it much on a daily basis) and such a "support" is required.

There are probably a lot of other thoughts that could do the same, some probably better, and some not as good. I do just fine in very tough times by other means.

I find the only exclusive benefit is not being ostracized by a big group of your neighbors, friends and peers. And of course you would need to tailor your professed belief to your surroundings. Which is a little dicey.