Was the Pope's criticism of Islam unfair?

TimeTraveler said:
You don't seem to understand. Americans do what they have to do. You can call the war illegal, so can the international community, and so can many American's, but that's not the point. Are there or aren't there laws of war?

A holywar has the potential to become a lawless war, and I fear that not just because of the innocent civilians and torturing of soldiers, but also because of the fact that there are important religious buildings which could be destroyed if there are no mutual agreements ot a set of laws.

The most scary situation for me would be if the US Nukes the middle east, and Iran Nukes Isreal, and everyone nukes all the religious sites. It's the religious sites, the religious element, which makes the situation explosive.


Setting aside monuments (which can be rebuilt), is it not more imperative to focus on real live people?

Unless the US stays out of the ME politics, the terrorism problem will never be resolved. Just the presence of the US army in Iraq is enough for the whole country to become a training ground for terrorism.
 
The first thing everyone must understand, in a war there are always innocent civilians. Innocent civilians, these are people who may indirectly support the war, because they have to, because their country decides for them.

Individual American's do not decide when to go to war, how to go to war, where to go to war, or anything of that sort. Individual American's get told "we are going to war", and then get asked "which side are you on, Americas side, or the terrorists?". Every American therefore is on America's side because we live here, our families are here, and really we don't have a better option.

This does not mean we agree with how the war is being fought, or if the war is legal or not, or on anything, but when in a situation where there are terrorists, we are united in capturing or taking out the terrorists because the terrorists actually did attack America on 911.

Of course, the situation is much more complicated than that, as there was hurricane Katrina, and Americans can just as easily ask "Where was the international community? Why didn't you help us?". So the same arguement that can be asked to American's about helping innocent muslims, can be asked to the international community.

The truth is, there are many good people in the world who want to help innocent people, innocent civilians, etc. These people however, aren't well organized, and don't have any power (or at least I don't know of any power). The way the world currently works is might makes right, he or that which has the most powerful weapons, makes all the rules, owns all the land, and rules the planet. This setup is not going to change anytime soon.

Innocent civilians, who care about the future, can have diplomacy, and economic organization, but none of this matters when all the weapons are in the hands of extremists. The terrorists have guns and weapons, it's just like that, and they'll use them on anyone, themselves, innocent civilians, the enemy, anyone.

Many of us disagree with having a war without rules and many of us support the geneva convention, but this does not really matter much because the people with the guns and bombs decide ultimately.
 
samcdkey said:
Setting aside monuments (which can be rebuilt), is it not more imperative to focus on real live people?

Unless the US stays out of the ME politics, the terrorism problem will never be resolved. Just the presence of the US army in Iraq is enough for the whole country to become a training ground for terrorism.

You have no idea how important these monuments are to religious people. Do you have any idea how many souls, how much energy, how much history and how many people died building and died protecting these monuments?

These monuments took billions of lives to build, and protect over the years. This is religion we are talking about here, and you have to understand that the perpective of a religious believer is that the monument matters more than the people because of the energy and souls that were put into building them.

Even in the west, I think Christians would go insane if the birth place of Christ were destroyed. I think Europeans would go insane if Roman monuments were destroyed, I think the same would happen to Muslims, or Asians, or Africans, or South Americans. All groups of people, all spiritual people, have monuments which are of great importance. The monuments are more important than individuals because monuments last longer than individuals, people only live 100 years, some of these monuments and religions have been around for thousands of years. I'm talking about before Christ, and some of them around the time of Christ, and some of them after Christ. These monuments may even be more important than the human race itself.

Why would someone believe this? Because after humans go extinct the only trace and evidence left of our existance will be these monuments. I think that yes, these monuments should be preserved no matter what.

I think terrorism can be resolved, it all depends on how you fight the war. I don't really know if we have a definition of a terrorist. First in order to properly fight terrorism we have to define what it is. We cannot just say the word "terror" and point to a brown man with a beard who looks Arab, if it's that simple we can just find or kill Bin Laden and it will be over, but it's obviously not that simple. A terrorist is not an appearance, it's not a religion although it might require religion, a terrorist is ultimately a personality type, and a political ideology. American's are unable to admit what a terrorist is, we cannot even admit that for example, those two kids involved in columbine were terrorists. If we cannot agree on what a terrorist is, how exactly are we supposed to win the war?

Second we have to define victory, what is winning the war? How many people must be killed in order to achieve victory? Or will it truly be an endless war from which we will kill terrorists from now until the end of time?

The reason this war is difficult to win is because we have not really explained the war. It's still a war that most people don't understand, except for the people fighting it, they seem to understand.

So as a thought experiment, can anyone here define what a terrorist is, and then once we do this can anyone here define what victory is and what it looks like? Finally how far away are we from victory and do our actions bring us closer or further from victory?

As of this moment, I think the war on terror and the war on terrorism are two different things. The war on terror, this is the esoteric understanding of the war, the war on terrorism is exoteric, and in reality do we really know what victory is when the war is undefineable? Is the war on Al Qaeda? If it were, well now Saddam and Iraq are involved so it must not be just Al Qaeda, is the war on Iran too? The whole middle east? Islam? I don't know.

I welcome anyone to define it, in specific, I'd like an extreme conservative to define it because conservative American's seem to understand the war better than anyone else. I also welcome any muslim extremist here to define it.

Moderates like myself, we don't really define it because we aren't passionate about it in the same way. I can see the economic reasoning behind some of the actions. I can see the rational behind disarming Iran if it has nuclear weapons. If the war is rational I can understand it, but on both sides, rarely is there rational debate on the extreme ends of the spectrum, and without rational debate you cannot win the middle.
 
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What I do find considerable amusement in is the fact that every time Islam is accused of being violent, half appear to go on a rampage and set things on fire. Now I know that it is only the minority who do this, but it presents a very interesting picture to the world indeed.

And then Al Qaeda goes on one of its rants saying that they will crush the west, force all its inhabitants to either convert or pay a head tax as they did in the calliphate days, and impose sharia law. That really helps... especially considering that Al Quaeda has basically made itself Islam's official spokesman these days. *sigh*
 
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Clockwood said:
What I do find considerable amusement in is the fact that every time Islam is accused of being violent, half appear to go on a rampage and set things on fire. Now I know that it is only the minority who do this, but it presents a very interesting picture to the world indeed.

Every religion has violent extreme elements. Violence has nothing to do with religion or Islam or Christianity, it's the human element that causes violence.
 
TimeTraveler said:
The first thing everyone must understand, in a war there are always innocent civilians. Innocent civilians, these are people who may indirectly support the war, because they have to, because their country decides for them.

Individual American's do not decide when to go to war, how to go to war, where to go to war, or anything of that sort. Individual American's get told "we are going to war", and then get asked "which side are you on, Americas side, or the terrorists?". Every American therefore is on America's side because we live here, our families are here, and really we don't have a better option.

This does not mean we agree with how the war is being fought, or if the war is legal or not, or on anything, but when in a situation where there are terrorists, we are united in capturing or taking out the terrorists because the terrorists actually did attack America on 911.

Of course, the situation is much more complicated than that, as there was hurricane Katrina, and Americans can just as easily ask "Where was the international community? Why didn't you help us?". So the same arguement that can be asked to American's about helping innocent muslims, can be asked to the international community.

The truth is, there are many good people in the world who want to help innocent people, innocent civilians, etc. These people however, aren't well organized, and don't have any power (or at least I don't know of any power). The way the world currently works is might makes right, he or that which has the most powerful weapons, makes all the rules, owns all the land, and rules the planet. This setup is not going to change anytime soon.

Innocent civilians, who care about the future, can have diplomacy, and economic organization, but none of this matters when all the weapons are in the hands of extremists. The terrorists have guns and weapons, it's just like that, and they'll use them on anyone, themselves, innocent civilians, the enemy, anyone.

Many of us disagree with having a war without rules and many of us support the geneva convention, but this does not really matter much because the people with the guns and bombs decide ultimately.

How many 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq?
 
TimeTraveler said:
Every religion has violent extreme elements. Violence has nothing to do with religion or Islam or Christianity, it's the human element that causes violence.
Thats the thing... Islam and Christianity are the human elements. This whole conflict has practically nothing to do with anything written in sterile ink and paper. Thousand year old words can be bent any which way to rationalize whatever the hell you choose to do. This conflict is more about living culture.

That isn't to say that Islamic culture is bad, its just struck through with cancerous elements. A running theme throughout history is that moderates are rarely in command of anything except by virtue of social inertia whenever any number of radicals are present. Moderates want only to live their lives and raise their families. Radicals are the ones that form armies and risk their lives for one cause or another. That tends to give them a certain amount of dominance.

One problem I see is that there is very little done against these elements by their own people. Terrorists cloak themselves in the image and word of Islam and by doing so make themselves effectively a sacred cow. To speak or act against them is seen in many places as un-Islamic and thus you would be siding with evil.
 
TimeTraveler said:
You have no idea how important these monuments are to religious people. Do you have any idea how many souls, how much energy, how much history and how many people died building and died protecting these monuments?

These monuments took billions of lives to build, and protect over the years. This is religion we are talking about here, and you have to understand that the perpective of a religious believer is that the monument matters more than the people because of the energy and souls that were put into building them.

Even in the west, I think Christians would go insane if the birth place of Christ were destroyed. I think Europeans would go insane if Roman monuments were destroyed, I think the same would happen to Muslims, or Asians, or Africans, or South Americans. All groups of people, all spiritual people, have monuments which are of great importance. The monuments are more important than individuals because monuments last longer than individuals, people only live 100 years, some of these monuments and religions have been around for thousands of years. I'm talking about before Christ, and some of them around the time of Christ, and some of them after Christ. These monuments may even be more important than the human race itself.

Why would someone believe this? Because after humans go extinct the only trace and evidence left of our existance will be these monuments. I think that yes, these monuments should be preserved no matter what.

I think terrorism can be resolved, it all depends on how you fight the war. I don't really know if we have a definition of a terrorist. First in order to properly fight terrorism we have to define what it is. We cannot just say the word "terror" and point to a brown man with a beard who looks Arab, if it's that simple we can just find or kill Bin Laden and it will be over, but it's obviously not that simple. A terrorist is not an appearance, it's not a religion although it might require religion, a terrorist is ultimately a personality type, and a political ideology. American's are unable to admit what a terrorist is, we cannot even admit that for example, those two kids involved in columbine were terrorists. If we cannot agree on what a terrorist is, how exactly are we supposed to win the war?

Second we have to define victory, what is winning the war? How many people must be killed in order to achieve victory? Or will it truly be an endless war from which we will kill terrorists from now until the end of time?

The reason this war is difficult to win is because we have not really explained the war. It's still a war that most people don't understand, except for the people fighting it, they seem to understand.

So as a thought experiment, can anyone here define what a terrorist is, and then once we do this can anyone here define what victory is and what it looks like? Finally how far away are we from victory and do our actions bring us closer or further from victory?

As of this moment, I think the war on terror and the war on terrorism are two different things. The war on terror, this is the esoteric understanding of the war, the war on terrorism is exoteric, and in reality do we really know what victory is when the war is undefineable? Is the war on Al Qaeda? If it were, well now Saddam and Iraq are involved so it must not be just Al Qaeda, is the war on Iran too? The whole middle east? Islam? I don't know.

I welcome anyone to define it, in specific, I'd like an extreme conservative to define it because conservative American's seem to understand the war better than anyone else. I also welcome any muslim extremist here to define it.

Moderates like myself, we don't really define it because we aren't passionate about it in the same way. I can see the economic reasoning behind some of the actions. I can see the rational behind disarming Iran if it has nuclear weapons. If the war is rational I can understand it, but on both sides, rarely is there rational debate on the extreme ends of the spectrum, and without rational debate you cannot win the middle.

This sounds ultra-modern, but it's about globalization. I'm not talking about just economics, I'm talking about culture. Radical Muslims feel like their culture is under attack and so they are fighting against the West, which is the cultural force moving in to supplant Islam. Of course, it's not that simple, but that's what it boils down to in the end.

Terrorist is just a word. Al-Qaeda, and groups like it, are paramilitary organizations fighting a war against the West. They are guerillas, and this is a global guerilla war.

That may be an oversimplification, but the point was kind of off-topic so I don't feel like writing an essay about it. Maybe if someone started a separate thread about Globalization and Terrorism, I could expand upon it.
 
A Moderate Muslim Perspective on Pope Benedict's comments.



Byline by M J Akbar

An intriguing part of the conversation between the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and "an educated Persian" now made world-famous by Pope Benedict XVI, is that the Persian seems to have no name. There is no mention of it in the speech made by the Holy Father during his "Apostolic Journey" to the University of Regensburg on 9/12.

The Persian must have been an intellectual of some importance if he was good enough to merit an audience with an "erudite" emperor. Does his name exist in the original text, since it was "presumably the Emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402"? Was the name mentioned in the version produced by Professor Theodore Khoury, which the Pope has read, and which he used in a speech on a critical aspect of a sensitive theme at a time of conflict, on the Islamic doctrine of "holy war"? I ask because names lend greater credibility to text. Was the name omitted because Muslims of the educated kind preferred anonymity? Not at all. Imam Ghazali and Ibn Khaldun were household names at the time of this dialogue.

There are other uncertainties in the Pope’s speech, which purports to be about "Faith, Reason and the University: Memories and Reflections" in which he quotes Manuel’s ignorant, but, given the history of the early and medieval Church’s continual diatribe against Islam and its Prophet, predictable view. This discussion on "holy war" appeared in the seventh conversation and was "rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole". It is interesting that Pope Benedict should select what was "rather marginal" for emphasis and ignore the apparently more substantive issues that were discussed. What is genuinely disconcerting is that the Holy Father should accept Manuel’s taunting, erroneous and provocative depiction of the Prophet’s message without any qualification. Pope Benedict is not at all disturbed by phrases as insulting as "evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". This is utterly wrong, as even a cursory understanding of Islam would have made apparent. Are the Pope’s speechwriters equally biased or ignorant? The Pope treated Manuel’s observation and commentary as self-evident truth.

I have a further question: Why didn’t the Pope quote the Persian scholar’s answer to Manuel? It was a conversation, after all. Are we to believe that the Persian gave no answer, that he did not challenge such a rant? He could not have been much of a scholar in that case. If he did not reply he justifies his anonymity.

What is aggravating is that the Pope has been free with assumptions, and liberal with its first cousin, innuendo. The peaceful piety of Manuel becomes an indictment of Islam, which is held to be violent in preference and doctrine. The innuendo is cleverly expressed, indicating that some effort has been taken to be clever. The famous verse of the Quran, that "There is no compulsion in religion", is juxtaposed with the proposition that "According to the experts, this is one of the Suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat". The implication is that when he was not under threat, he drew out his sword and went on a rampage. This is the kind of propaganda that the Church used to put out with abandon in the early days, adding gratuitously comments about believers and "infidels". This is the line that those who have made it their business to hate Muslims, use till today. But the Vatican had stopped such vilification, and it is unfortunate that Pope Benedict has revived it.

If he had consulted a few experts who understood Islam, he might have been better educated on "holy war".

It is absolutely correct that no war verse was sent down to the Prophet during his Mecca phase. Despite the severest persecution, to the point where he almost lost his life, he never advocated violence. There are innumerable verses in the Quran extolling the merits of peace, and a peaceful solution to life’s problems — including a preference for peace over war. The Quran treats Christians and Jews as people of the Book, despite the fact that they did not accept the Prophet’s message. It praises Jesus as "Ruh-Allah", or one touched by the spirit of Allah (this is the best translation I can think of). Mary, mother of Jesus, is accepted as virgin, although the Quran is equally clear that Jesus is a man, and not the son of God.

The war verses are sent to the Prophet only when he has been in Medina for some time, and has become not only a leader of the community but also head of a multi-faith state. War, in other words, is permitted as an exercise in statecraft, and not for personal reasons, including persecution. Further, it is circumscribed with important conditions. Surely no one, including Pope Benedict, believes that a state cannot ever take recourse to war? Indeed, the history of the Vatican is filled with war. The Quran’s view of war, as an answer to injustice, certainly merits more understanding than censure.

Manuel’s view is better understood in the context of his times. He was monarch of a once-glorious but now dying empire. The Ottomans had been slicing off territory for centuries; the first Crusade had been called by Pope Urban II three centuries before to save the Byzantines from Muslim Turks. The heart of the empire, Constantinople, was now under serious threat. If Tamerlane (another Muslim) had not suddenly appeared from the east and decimated the Ottomans, Constantinople might have fallen during that siege which so depressed Manuel. It was hardly a moment when the Byzantines could have the most charitable view of an Islamic holy war. What is less understandable is why Pope Benedict should endorse a fallacy.

The present Pope is not a successor to the great and wise John Paul II. He is heir to predecessors like Pope Nicholas V who issued "The Bull Romanus Pontifex" in January 1455. This Holy Father sought "to bestow favours and special graces on Catholic kings and princes, who ... not only restrain the savage excesses of the Saracens (that is, Muslims) and of other infidels, enemies of the Christian name, but also for the defence and increase of the faith vanquish them..." He then praises King Alfonso for going to remote places "to bring into the bosom of his faith the perfidious enemies of him and of the life-giving Cross by which we have been redeemed, namely the Saracens and other infidels..."

And so on. This was the philosophy that created the Inquisition in which Muslims and Jews were killed and driven out of Catholic kingdoms in Spain and Portugal after the Christian reconquests. Do note that Muslims did not have any exclusive copyright over the use of the term "infidel".

I have no particular desire to introduce 16th century dialectic into contemporary attempts to bridge inter-faith misunderstanding, but it is pertinent that Nicholas V became Pope some sixty years after Manuel’s conversations with the unnamed Persian. Equally, there is no point in quoting from, say, Dante’s rather bilious descriptions of the Prophet and Hazrat Ali for that language belongs to a different world.



A suggestion to those who believe in an "international outcry". Hyper-reactions tend to suggest nervousness. Islam is not a weak doctrine; it is built on rock, not sand. Reason is a more effective weapon than anger.

http://www.mjakbar.org/mjblog.htm
 
I think the Pope's right, and Muslims are proving it. Back then, however, the Church had a jihad of it's own called the Crusades, complete with Jewish massacres and plently of forced conversions.

At least they grew out of it.

It's unfair to call every Muslim violent, but enough of them use their religion as justification for violence and self-righteousness that it's a valid complaint.
 
I don't think the pope would lie. He called it as he sees it. Does the word 'forgive' exist in the Muslim dictionary?

So what if Muslims refer to the USA as the 'great Satan', that wouldn't get the Christians there riled up would it?....er, wait a minute, I take that back.

As an atheist I just shake my head. Even though people die over religious remarks I can't help thinking of those who today will look at their religion closely enough to see it as it really is and break with their faith. Whether they become atheists or not doesn't matter, its questioning the faith that's important.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
I don't think the pope would lie. He called it as he sees it. Does the word 'forgive' exist in the Muslim dictionary?

So what if Muslims refer to the USA as the 'great Satan', that wouldn't get the Christians there riled up would it?....er, wait a minute, I take that back.

Somehow this will eventually be blamed on the Jews. By both sides.

As an atheist I just shake my head. Even though people die over religious remarks I can't help thinking of those who today will look at their religion closely enough to see it as it really is and break with their faith. Whether they become atheists or not doesn't matter, its questioning the faith that's important.

So if the US model of democracy involves invading other countries to protect its interests and maintain its status quo, there is something wrong with democracy and not with the people who are using it as an excuse?
 
samcdkey said:
So if the US model of democracy involves invading other countries to protect its interests and maintain its status quo, there is something wrong with democracy and not with the people who are using it as an excuse?

Boy, its tough for anyone to keep religion and politics separate.

The one thing wrong with democracy is that it can't separate the two either.
 
samcdkey said:
So if the US model of democracy involves invading other countries to protect its interests and maintain its status quo, there is something wrong with democracy and not with the people who are using it as an excuse?
That is the Neo-Con philosophy, not democracy per se. There IS something very wrong with the Neo-Cons, and the evangelical Christians who support them.
 
spidergoat said:
That is the Neo-Con philosophy, not democracy per se. There IS something very wrong with the Neo-Cons, and the evangelical Christians who support them.

One might say the same thing about terrorists.

And yet, although moderate Americans do not like to be associated with their governments policies, they find themselves explaining this to every non-American they meet outside the US.

Moderate Muslims also end up in the exact same position re: Islam.

edit: the difference being, we don't enjoy any benefits from the policies of terrorists.
Quite the reverse, in fact.
 
spidergoat said:
We do deserve criticism for our government's actions.

Yes, but to what extent?

Is every American personally responsible for every government decision in the ME or elsewhere?

Cos it sure looks like the moderate Muslims have to answer for each and every terrorist activity, regardless of which part of the world they come from or what their personal beliefs represent.
 
To the same extent Muslims do for their religion. Criticism, but not necessarily criminal prosecution. All religious nuts should answer for the harm their religion does.
 
spidergoat said:
To the same extent Muslims do for their religion. Criticism, but not necessarily criminal prosecution. All religious nuts should answer for the harm their religion does.

Yes, but who determines the culprit?

Are the soldiers in Iraq fair game for the government's actions?
 
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