Was the Pope's criticism of Islam unfair?

[KennyJC]

apparently the pope doesn't have access to any history books.

Or his own book, as Godless pointed out.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think this has been blown way out of proportion.

He's a theologian, he quoted a comment which in the context of his speech and present climate, could have been better selected.

It has been given far too much importance.

Enough said already.

 

[charles cure]

I think this has been blown way out of proportion.

He's a theologian, he quoted a comment which in the context of his speech and present climate, could have been better selected.

It has been given far too much importance.

Enough said already.

i don't agree with that. you would be right that it isn't important if it hadn't caused the reaction from the muslim world that it has. you now have some whacked out muslims bombing churches in arab countries in order to show their outrage at the pope's comments (and apparently also attempting to prove the accuracy of his statement). i guess the comments in and of themselves are relatively unimportant, but it serves as a reminder of how tension between religious groups are currently turning the world upside down. in the end the implications of the pope's tactlessness are larger than just a squabble over impropriety.

 

[S.A.M.]

i don't agree with that. you would be right that it isn't important if it hadn't caused the reaction from the muslim world that it has. you now have some whacked out muslims bombing churches in arab countries in order to show their outrage at the pope's comments (and apparently also attempting to prove the accuracy of his statement). i guess the comments in and of themselves are relatively unimportant, but it serves as a reminder of how tension between religious groups are currently turning the world upside down. in the end the implications of the pope's tactlessness are larger than just a squabble over impropriety.

Only because they have been used as such.

In and of itself, the words of a long ago Byzantine emperor should not be of such concern to Muslims.

 

[charles cure]

Only because they have been used as such.

In and of itself, the words of a long ago Byzantine emperor should not be of such concern to Muslims.

yeah but that's the point. all words are meaningless if no one hears them or is influenced by them or acts on them. the impact and importance of a statement can be measured by action taken as a result of it, and in this case, that makes the pope's statement important, regardless of any hair-splitting you may want to get into.

you can say that you don't think that muslims should be concerned with the pope's choice of backup material for his characterization of islam, but they clearly are outraged by it. at that point, you would think that whether or not people should be concerned is irrelevant.

that whole incident to me just underscores the role that all three abrahamic faiths are currently playing in creating and exacerbating violent situations around the globe. the pope should get his head out of his ass and learn how to not be one of the most offensive people on earth, and muslims should probably realize that blowing up churches in the name of islam doesn't do too much to refute the assertion that your religion is inherently violent.

 

[S.A.M.]

that whole incident to me just underscores the role that all three abrahamic faiths are currently playing in creating and exacerbating violent situations around the globe. the pope should get his head out of his ass and learn how to not be one of the most offensive people on earth, and muslims should probably realize that blowing up churches in the name of islam doesn't do too much to refute the assertion that your religion is inherently violent.

Its less about religion, more about regional politics.

But I agree with you.

I've said it before, any group is judged by its most visible element and the most visible element in Islam right now are the extremists.

It is up to us Muslims to change that, no one else can do it.

 

[Baron Max]

It is up to us Muslims to change that, no one else can do it.

But in the meantime, are we to just let the extremists kill whoever they want, whenever they want ...without condemnation and police action against them? Shrug it all off, and say, "Ho, hum, ....let the Muslims handle it." ?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

But in the meantime, are we to just let the extremists kill whoever they want, whenever they want ...without condemnation and police action against them? Shrug it all off, and say, "Ho, hum, ....let the Muslims handle it." ?

Baron Max

Hmm so better to let the US extremists deal with Muslims and Muslim extremists to deal with Americans.

In fact, lets start keeping a tally, so we can either decide when both sides have had enough or no one is left to tally.

 

[Baron Max]

I don't know the answers, Sam, but I know that we, the western world, just can't stand by and let the terrorist do whatever they want to whoever they want. Does that seem right to you? Don't you think we, the western world, should do something? How can we just stand by and let innocent people be killed for nothing?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't know the answers, Sam, but I know that we, the western world, just can't stand by and let the terrorist do whatever they want to whoever they want. Does that seem right to you? Don't you think we, the western world, should do something? How can we just stand by and let innocent people be killed for nothing?

Baron Max

I don't know the answers, Baron, but I know that we, the rest of the world, just can't stand by and let the US do whatever they want to whoever they want. Does that seem right to you? Don't you think we, the rest of the world, should do something? How can we just stand by and let innocent people be killed for nothing?

 

[Baron Max]

Then do something, Sam!!! I'd much rather you fuckin' Muslim terrorist start attacking Americans and American soldiers than to just keep blowing up innocent women and children, most of the Muslims, to boot!! Do something, goddammit ....but quit blowing up innocent people ...women and children, even Muslims!!!! Do something ...quit fuckin' talkin' about it and do something!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Then do something, Sam!!! I'd much rather you fuckin' Muslim terrorist start attacking Americans and American soldiers than to just keep blowing up innocent women and children, most of the Muslims, to boot!! Do something, goddammit ....but quit blowing up innocent people ...women and children, even Muslims!!!! Do something ...quit fuckin' talkin' about it and do something!

Baron Max

What are the Americans doing?

Besides sending their families to fight an illegal war?

 

[Nickelodeon]

....but quit blowing up innocent people ...

Good advice. I wish the US military would listen.

 

[nova900]

I don't know the answers, Sam, but I know that we, the western world, just can't stand by and let the terrorist do whatever they want to whoever they want. Does that seem right to you? Don't you think we, the western world, should do something? How can we just stand by and let innocent people be killed for nothing?

Baron Max

How about if the U.S pushed for a real Palestinian homeland. I mean a real push---push and push till something gives. Not just another round of useless peace talks that usually fizzle out and then back to the usual cycle of violence. Of course Isreal would have to be willing.
Then really help the people try and establish a viable economy.
I know this sounds simplistic but such an effort would probably do a world of good with putting the west in abetter light in the eyes of even the extremists.

Unfortunately Bush and his ultra right wing christian fundamentalists are eager to keep the conflcit going with the Islamic world and intensify it..because of course its all biblical prophecy.
I am not supporting the Islamic extremists ..they are idiots as well, but I don't see how maintaining this war on terror is going to solve anything...if anything it's only going to get worse.

 

[S.A.M.]

How about if the U.S pushed for a real Palestinian homeland. I mean a real push---push and push till something gives. Not just another round of useless peace talks that usually fizzle out and then back to the usual cycle of violence. Of course Isreal would have to be willing.
Then really help the people try and establish a viable economy.
I know this sounds simplistic but such an effort would probably do a world of good with putting the west in abetter light in the eyes of even the extremists.

Unfortunately Bush and his ultra right wing christian fundamentalists are eager to keep the conflcit going with the Islamic world and intensify it..because of course its all biblical prophecy.
I am not supporting the Islamic extremists ..they are idiots as well, but I don't see how maintaining this war on terror is going to solve anything...if anything it's only going to get worse.

We need to urgently focus on

1. alternate fuels
2. resolving the Palestine issue
3. removing the financial support structure of the terrorists.

I believe the first will make both the second and third easier.

 

[tablariddim]

Considering the fact that Muslims are paticularly sensitive at this juncture, what with the Mohamed cartoons and the war against terrorism (Islam) then what the Pope said was ill timed and very stupid.

 

[wesmorris]

"illegal war"

LOL.

pardon. the term just seems so freakin stupid. isn't that a bit redundant?

anyway..

I think perhaps in order to incite a cleansing and clearly identify the dangerous fucks to would take these kind of words and kill people because they were said - we should come up with daily statements of similar ilk to be broadcast worldwide. Flush them out I say. Identify them and schedule them for reprogramming.

 

[wesmorris]

Considering the fact that Muslims are paticularly sensitive at this juncture, what with the Mohamed cartoons and the war against terrorism (Islam) then what the Pope said was ill timed and very stupid.

Surely you don't think that's an excuse for violence and murder eh?

I think most "thinking muslims" would agree with sam that this is no big deal.

 

[wesmorris]

How about if the U.S pushed for a real Palestinian homeland. I mean a real push---push and push till something gives. Not just another round of useless peace talks that usually fizzle out and then back to the usual cycle of violence. Of course Isreal would have to be willing.
Then really help the people try and establish a viable economy.
I know this sounds simplistic but such an effort would probably do a world of good with putting the west in abetter light in the eyes of even the extremists.

I've always thought they should just move into israel, or syria or iraq or iran or something. I don't get it. You can't be palestinian in iran? Why don't they just invite them in? Again, I don't understand this aspect of the scenario...

 

[TimeTraveler]

What are the Americans doing?

Besides sending their families to fight an illegal war?

You don't seem to understand. Americans do what they have to do. You can call the war illegal, so can the international community, and so can many American's, but that's not the point. Are there or aren't there laws of war?

A holywar has the potential to become a lawless war, and I fear that not just because of the innocent civilians and torturing of soldiers, but also because of the fact that there are important religious buildings which could be destroyed if there are no mutual agreements ot a set of laws.

The most scary situation for me would be if the US Nukes the middle east, and Iran Nukes Isreal, and everyone nukes all the religious sites. It's the religious sites, the religious element, which makes the situation explosive.