Very old question: why would an all-powerful and all-loving god allow us to suffer?

[wesmorris]

God's love is just

what if god hates? is that just too?

what if god doesn't love?

what if god is indifferent?

since god is perfect (i'm assuming this is inherent to your definition of the word), all that god could do would be just.

so saying "god's love is just" is a non-statement because "god's crap" is just as just.

 

[buffys]

if there is a god(s) it's got to be of the roman, greek or norse variety. gods like odin or zeus make a hell of a lot more sense when taking the history of the planet into consideration.

 

[Nasor]

God's love is just

Are you suggesting that it is 'just' for a young child to suffer from a terrible, debilitating disease? Why would it be just for me to cure the child of her disease, but unjust for God to do it? Or do you suggest that it's unjust for me to cure a child's disease?

 

[Hevene]

what if god hates? is that just too?

what if god doesn't love?

what if god is indifferent?

since god is perfect (i'm assuming this is inherent to your definition of the word), all that god could do would be just.

so saying "god's love is just" is a non-statement because "god's crap" is just as just.

Wesmorris:
God is love. God doesn't hate. Since God is everything, to hate something is to hate God itself (I don't see the logic here why god should hate anything). Justice is created by humans to define what WE think is right and wrong, to God, everything is perfect in its own way, and hence no need for a thing such as justice. God only observes.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Wesmorris:
God is love. God doesn't hate. Since God is everything, to hate something is to hate God itself (I don't see the logic here why god should hate anything). Justice is created by humans to define what WE think is right and wrong, to God, everything is perfect in its own way, and hence no need for a thing such as justice. God only observes.

----------
M*W: Hevene, I really liked your answer to Wesmorris. You are right. To hate anything is to hate God itself. God is the energy within humanity. I think God does more than observe. God takes an active role in our lives to create love, to heal the sick, and raise the dead, because there is no death to the spirit.
G-Zeus was a character written about as an "example" of what perfect humanity would become. We are still evolving toward perfect humanity, and God which dwells within all creation and in the human race more abundantly will overcome death of not only the spirit, but the body as well.

 

[alain]

well, in some religions, god is a child, despite being very old, human children learn by imitating their parents, god doesnt have any of these, and so must learn of of us. He has to put us in horrible positions so that he can learn what is the right thing to do, or maybe thats just what parents tell little children to convince them that stomping on ants nests will teach god bad habbits.

MShark, u go to iraq, ethiopia etc and tell them that their lives are wonderful, and see what they say. tell that to people on the street who have to beg to survive, and people who have to go home to a violent, drunken spouse

 

[wesmorris]

Wesmorris:
God is love. God doesn't hate. Since God is everything,

Do you see where you just contradicted yourself?

to hate something is to hate God itself (I don't see the logic here why god should hate anything).

do you think god is accountable to your logic?

Justice is created by humans to define what WE think is right and wrong, to God, everything is perfect in its own way, and hence no need for a thing such as justice.

- for chrissake the shit that comes from people's heads. you just said "to god, something seems". do you realize the ego that takes? you think you know how something seems to god? LOL. god told you this? maybe you read it in the bible or something? sorry the the presumption seems simply outlandish to me. it seems to me that there is little less respectful that someone attempting to describe how something seems to god. maybe you meant that differently.

- if you got that from the bible wouldn't you say then that "humans define what WE think is right correct? i mean, i thought what humans think is moral is based on the bible right? and that's the word of god right?

God only observes.

LOL. I don't think most christians would agree. Otherwise there's a lot of wasted prayer happening.

 

[Q25]

Hello Q25,
My name is Jonathan, I accepted Jesus Christ Into my heart ever since I can remember, Ninth grade of Highschool to be exact. My best friend invited me to youth group and I went up on one of thier Christian Camps to a place called Forrest Home. Tis a place of sheer beauty, lovely pine trees, and rising mountains. Very nice in the Winter. I remember the night I took communion is the night I accepted him in my heart. I remember his Body that was broken for me and His blood that was shed, and because someone had the heart enough to show me Christ through their lives I got to experience Jesus. He died for me, that's love. God is loving Q, his love is deep, his love is wide and his love is long, may you come to understand this, that Jesus Christ being in his very nature God, became one of us and humbled himself in obedience. Obedience that led him to his death. God loves you and sent his son for you, there is no doubt, he wants to heal you, comfort you, and love you like nothing this world can offer. I pray come to know this and your life will be forever changed. God so loved this world he sent his only son, just to inevitably die, for us. You and me. Thats love, that a person would lay down their life even when it could have been in vain, even when Jesus knew we would hate and sin.....he still died for you and me. This is love of which you will find no greater. What say you to this? That there is a love waiting for you, and will always be waiting for you. Have you ever known what it is truly like to have a relationship with Jesus Christ?

I thought this post is about God,not Jesus!

 

[Q25]

Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves? God could presumably have created a different plan to achieve the same results that didn't involve suffering, since there is by definition nothing that he can’t do.

God didnt create nothing!
I dont believe in gods,mostly b/c theres no evidence for them!
death is part of life,nature,universe,
all living things die eventualy,if they didnt the world would get overpopulated and all would starve.
why some people kill,steal,lie,etc?
its the only way they know how to survive,would be my guess,
its the survival of the fittest,
there would be no need for this if everyone had everything they need,and yes we have the technology to make it happen,
but,
then no one would want/need to work,so the economy would be fucked,
unless
we had the machines to do the work,
but
until people evolve/smarten up get rid of their greedy materialistic thinking that more possesions/stuff is better,
it aint gonna happen.

 

[Payment Coupon]

I thought this post is about God,not Jesus!

Yes, but you still didn't answer my question.

 

[Nasor]

Yes, but you still didn't answer my question.

And you still haven't answered mine!

 

[alain]

Aaron rider said "We already have the victory. There isn't anything to overcome; Jesus already did it. We just have to claim the victory, then we've already won."
If you listen to an american news channel, it says 50 iraqi soliders and 5 civilians died in an explosion, if you listen to iraqi news, it says 5 soliders and 50 civilians.

Of course the bible says that God will win (against satan), im curious as to who the opposite side says will win

 

[Q25]

. God so loved this world he sent his only son, just to inevitably die, for us. You and me. Thats love, that a person would lay down their life even when it could have been in vain, even when Jesus knew we would hate and sin.....he still died for you and me. This is love of which you will find no greater. What say you to this? That there is a love waiting for you, and will always be waiting for you. Have you ever known what it is truly like to have a relationship with Jesus Christ?

this storys logic just sucks big time,
I mean its so stupid and ilogical only a braindead morron could even consider beliving it!
HOW would jebus dying ,even if he existed,which is questionable,
as far as being SOG sonofgod,or wait was He the God himself turned man Trinity as some say??have anything to do with anything else??
its like saying we have coffe so there must exist donuts!

relationship w Jesus? no thnx
fucking dead is ilegal and not my cup o tea,anyhow,dude!

 

[alain]

Am i right that
*God can do anything?
*God loves all of the earth?
*God also loves his Son?
Therefore, he could make a world, where no-one has to suffer, and he sent Jeus to suffer for no reason?

 

[Tiassa]

Yes, Alain ... according to some interpretations of Christianity, that is exactly the case; however, they don't generally see it that way, which is puzzling.

A striking example comes from a "Bible paraphrase" called The Clear Word, in Genesis 3. God is speaking to the Son, and everything is according to Plan. It is also worth noting that the author, Jack Blanco, also changes the Bible insofar as God says things in the paraphrase that are in serious contradiction of the Bible itself, so take that example for whatever it's worth.

Essentially, though, you've summed up a central paradox to Christian theology.

 

[MShark]

Alain:

I guess my first question is. Isn't it incredible and wonderful that you, the down troden of the world, and I exist.

It seems to me that those opposed to the idea that God exists are not very upbeat about the idea of being alive. I don't mind people not beliving in God but when they don't celebrate life it makes me wonder why anyone would choose to live their lives by that philosophy.

You people talk like suffering is a bad thing.

To me Living without hope and love is a bad thing. If that is what you mean by suffering I agree with you. However, if you mean suffering is pain and death I would disagree.

 

[wesmorris]

It seems to me that those opposed to the idea that God exists are not very upbeat about the idea of being alive.

That's a load! I'm freakin ecstatic to be here and I'm a staunch athiest.

I don't mind people not beliving in God but when they don't celebrate life it makes me wonder why anyone would choose to live their lives by that philosophy.

I don't think being athiest is a philosophy. For me, it's a resultant of my philosophy of striving for absolute honesty.

You people talk like suffering is a bad thing.

Who is "you people"? :bugeye: How is actual suffering not a bad thing? In and of itself it is bad by definition. If you weren't suffering, you wouldn't be suffering. Often though, good things originate in bad things and vice-versa. Of course it's important to recognize that the concept of "good" is quite subjective.

To me Living without hope and love is a bad thing.

I agree. I love the whole love thing.

If that is what you mean by suffering I agree with you.

Maybe you didn't mean "you people". You seem to be talking to someone specifically.

However, if you mean suffering is pain and death I would disagree.

Suffering is generally pain and it cannot be death (as after you die there is no one to be suffering (from the perspective of people who are still alive)).

 

[buffys]

You people talk like suffering is a bad thing.

lol! "you people" ... two words that guarantee an idiotic statement is to follow.

btw - suffering isn't a bad thing? if that's the case wouldn't that make hell the paradise and heaven the punishment?

 

[MShark]

Wesmorris:

While I agree with you that that suffering is most definatly suffering. And I do believe that holds true for any definition of suffering. I do not think that by definition pain is bad. It seems to me that pain is an integral part of being alive and since I like being alive how can I wish away my pain.

I guess my point is that the world is a cool place and for me the idea of a loving God gives me hope. Hope removes most of my bad feelings about my particular lot in life and allows me to enjoy the life that I have. Since I think that suffering is a loss of hope(dispair) I would say that God, whether she exists of not, removes suffering.

 

[MShark]

Buffys:

Glad I could bring a little cheer to your life.

I think what makes heaven is being with God and what makes hell is not being with God. If you think suffering is so bad what is suffering and what makes it bad. If I have a bad hair day is that suffering? How about if I get hungry a half hour before lunch?