Very old question: why would an all-powerful and all-loving god allow us to suffer?

Greco:
Tiassa are you spinning for God?
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Not particularly. It's just a very simple answer to a question people devote an inappropriately extraneous amount of energy to.
 
Nasor said:
Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves?
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I am sorry that you hold a higher standard than God. Try lower it a bit, you willl see less suffering.
 
MShark said:
Siddhartha:

Aren't all our lives infinitly wonderful? Just because people do not appreciate their lives does not mean they are not infinitly wonderful.
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A God with infinite love and compassion would alter our perception so that everyone appreciated the wonder of their lives.
 
Siddhartha said:
A God with infinite love and compassion would alter our perception so that everyone appreciated the wonder of their lives.
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How would one appreciate the wonders without seeing and experiencing the misery?
If your mother were to carry you in her arms throughout your whole life, you'd never learn how to walk.
 
Circe said:
How would one appreciate the wonders without seeing and experiencing the misery?
If your mother were to carry you in her arms throughout your whole life, you'd never learn how to walk.
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With infinite power, wisdom and compassion such dualistic necessities would be done away with. We wouldn't need to feel bad to appreciate good.
 
Siddhartha said:
With infinite power, wisdom and compassion such dualistic necessities would be done away with. We wouldn't need to feel bad to appreciate good.
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That doesn't require divine qualities or divine intervention. Just a shift in one's consciousness.
 
We suffer because of sin in the world....It's simple he CANNOT stop bad things from coming but sometimes he will take something bad and make something good out of it.He DOES NOT allow bad to happen you (hating to say this)bring it upon yourself....So needless to say because of sin in the world we must suffer but through somethings we learn through them which is when you are suppose to follow him..Satan is the doer of all EVIL....God knows the mistakes we are gonna make even before we are born

i.e. God:" Oh little suzzy had premarital sex her parents wont be happy but i can bring something good out of it." So she gets pregnant.Sometimes bad yes but on the other hand suzzy has someone to love her because her fammily is so angry. GOd does so many great and wonderful things for us every day..maybe you got a raise...you may say that well I got the raise because I worked hard but the truth is that God put the will power in you and the strenght in you to work hard and get that raise..I hope this makes since although I know that you will have many replies and what not but what can I say I'm just 14.....But if you ask me i've got a pretty good outlook on it
 
Siddhartha said:
Then certainly a divine power would guarantee it.
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Perhaps you've just discovered God's plan. Wasn't it Jesus who said seek and you shall find? ;)

Or, if you're familiar with the Nag Hammadi library:

"He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All."
 
This I posted in another thread, but it really gives the answer to this question.

Yet it is wrote that there are many other races of intelligent beings in this created universe of many billions of galaxies. Who applauded when mankind was created. Nobody changed anything you twister of words. Seven thousand years for a creative day, and I gave the logic and reason of it. The race of mankind is the only race of intelligent life given the very qualities of our creator. That’s why some other beings were jealous of us and demanded we be tested of our integrity. Test is over. Game is up. Knowledge is a very powerful thing. Except when what you know, isn’t so. Deception breeds confusion, confusion breeds insanity, truth heals.
 
Jessica_lds said:
We suffer because of sin in the world....It's simple he CANNOT stop bad things from coming but sometimes he will take something bad and make something good out of it.He DOES NOT allow bad to happen you (hating to say this)bring it upon yourself....So needless to say because of sin in the world we must suffer but through somethings we learn through them which is when you are suppose to follow him..Satan is the doer of all EVIL....God knows the mistakes we are gonna make even before we are born

i.e. God:" Oh little suzzy had premarital sex her parents wont be happy but i can bring something good out of it." So she gets pregnant.Sometimes bad yes but on the other hand suzzy has someone to love her because her fammily is so angry. GOd does so many great and wonderful things for us every day..maybe you got a raise...you may say that well I got the raise because I worked hard but the truth is that God put the will power in you and the strenght in you to work hard and get that raise..I hope this makes since although I know that you will have many replies and what not but what can I say I'm just 14.....But if you ask me i've got a pretty good outlook on it
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I would argue that we suffer from our sins and not for them. Speak unkind words about another and you will earn the reputation of a nasty person, and will be less liked. This is a natural example of cause and effect. The idea that all my sins are being tallied up on some divine cash-register for me to settle the bill on judgement day is a little far fetched. A few other points if I may. If Satan is the doer of all evil, why are men to be judged? If God knew the mistakes we'd make before we were born, why did he allow our birth to go ahead knowing he would have to condemn us for them? You see, he had free will before I was born and my consciousness could comprehend free will and yet he did nothing to save me. Anyway, I should probably not even have posted this, it's late and it's all been said and done before.
 
You know what, im not even going to try and convince you that god does not exist. Instead im just going to pretend god exists and give you the answer to why he allows us to suffer. He supposedly gave us free will (another topic that I don’t believe in but im going to pretend that I do for now). I think he gave us this free will because of his supposed love for us. You know that saying, “if you love it then set it free”. I guess that’s what the holy god did. Now with free will we get sin, this sin is caused because of the evil doings humans do in their lifetime. So god with is love for us, while wanting to keep free will, devices a way to punish the sinners for the good of the majority even it if means making the individual suffer. And this suffering is of course caused by the sins presented in everyone...

Now this is just a logical conclusion... people may think that the holocaust and other such events are unfair and suffer meaninglessly due to god and his doings...yet this is just a result of our “free will”. I guess that you can say god works in mysterious ways...especially since hitlers received the worse punishment of all. Receiving death and going to hell...Now of course this is only accepting that there is a god, and it is tough for me to say all this since I cannot think of there being a god at all.
 
All of the explanations that people have provided seem to fall into one of three categories.

argument that suffering is beneficial
Some people here have proposed that God permits suffering because it is actually a good thing, and humans just aren't able to understand it. This implies that there is some positive result of suffering that we aren't aware of. Perhaps the suffering is simply a small part in a more elaborate plan, or maybe experiencing suffering is somehow beneficial to people. An analogy might be a mother who allows her child to suffer the pain of a vaccination shot; even though it's painful for the child, the benefit of the vaccination is far too great for the mother allow the momentary pain that the child suffers to prevent her from allowing the child to be vaccinated. The mother is causing her child to suffer out of love.

But what if the mother could give her child the benefit of the vaccination without the pain? If God is omnipotent, then there is nothing that can be accomplished through suffering – no hidden benefit or desired effect – that God could not simply cause to occur without the suffering. It's important to be very clear on this issue, because a lot of people here don't seem to understand it: if God is omnipotent then at any time he could chose to eliminate suffering without causing any detrimental effects for people.

argument from free will
A few people have proposed that God allows suffering for some reason related to free will. This doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of instances of suffering that don't have anything to do with free will. Where's the interference in free will if God prevents someone from being killed in a tornado? The formation of a tornado doesn't seem to have anything to do with human will.

Also, even in cases in which interfering with suffering would necessitate interference with human will, it still doesn't make sense that God should refrain from helping. If I saw a helpless person being assaulted in the street, no one would suggest that I shouldn't step in and help the victim because I would be interfering with the free will of the attacker. Indeed, most people would agree that I would be morally remiss if I had the power to easily help the person but chose not to. Yet for some reason, even though I would be morally remiss for not helping a stranger who was being attacked, people don't think that God is morally remiss for routinely refusing to help such victims, even though he apparently loves them.

argument from sin
Several people have suggested that suffering is the result of sin. This doesn't really get us anywhere. Even if one accepts that sin is the direct or indirect source of all suffering, it still doesn't answer the question of why God permits it to occur. Why not just allow people to sin but eliminate the suffering? God could presumably do that, being omnipotent and all.

If you want to insist that God is both omnipotent and all-loving, it would seem to imply that God's version of love is so radically different from our everyday version that it's basically unrecognizable. Caring about the well-being and happiness of a loved one seems so fundamental to love that it could easily serve as a definition of love, but apparently God's love is some sort of love that doesn't include this. Would such a relationship even qualify as love?
 
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To me the supreme example of a sadistic God is the story of Noah's Ark. Why would an omnipotent entity order Noah to collect a pair of all animals? Why rain for 40 days? To watch humans and animals slowly dying? Is he so inept of a God that he can not surgically take mankind out without destroying everything? And couldnt he do it with a snap of his fingers? Why the prolonged torture? To prove how mighty he was? Or maybe God is a psycho, unpredictable from moment to moment. You would think he would have learned something all the time he's been around.
 
Nasor said:
I've always wondered how some people, especially Christian, reconcile the idea of an all-powerful and all-loving God allowing terrible things to happen to people.
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This will help, it helped me. This is from a book called "Letters from a Skeptic" written by Dr. Gregory A. Boyd, and Edward K. Boyd. Greg Boyd initiated this correspondence with his father in the hope that his father would eventually come to know Christ. After three years, 30 letters, Edward K. Boyd came to know Jesus Christ.

It starts like this:
Dear Greg,
..............But this is really just part of a bigger problem I have with the idea of an all-loving God. It's not just the evil in the church that's the problem, it's the evil in the whole world. If God created this world and cares about it, why is there so much damn suffering in it? In your letter your answer was that god can't be held responsible because He gave man the freedom to choose to do right or wrong. But, Greg, I don't feel that the question can be swept away so easily. When the freedom to decide to do harm results in pain and suffering to innocent people, God is simply not the "loving" God you make Him out to be! I thought about this when I read about this lunatic down here in Florida who was released from jail after some seven or eight years for raping a teenage girl and then chopping off both her arms, leaving her for dead. It was his free choice to commit the crime, but what choice did the innocent girl have? it would appear that the "loving," protecting God forgot all about her! Why does God value the freedom of the criminal, but not the freedom of the victim? Another situation along these lines is the drought in Africa causing millions of people to starve because of the lack of rain. there are no choices involved here. Nature just got fouled up in the water supply, so millions of people, all of them innocent, most of them children, die a horrible death. Where was the "loving and protecting" God during this, or did He just forget Them? Or was God punishing them for some sins, or for being Muslim, like I've heard some bozo Christian evangelist say? That would be worse than a God who just forgets them! The point is, this world doesn't look at all like the kind of world we'd have if there were an all-powerful, all-loving God behind it. And I don't see that your explanation of freedom improves the situation much. Well, enough for now. Look forward to your letter.
Lots of love, Dad

Dear Dad,
Well, Dad, I've got to admit that you are raising some extremely good points in your letters. You are raising the most difficult questions a theist can face. This is really good material.
Now, you're wondering how an all-loving God could allow a girl to get raped and mutilated by a sicko, and you don't buy the explanation that God gave this sicko free will, for this explanation doesn't take into consideration the (violated) free will of the girl.
This is a very tough question, to the point where it's almost insensitive to even give an answer. And, indeed, under the emotional impact of this nightmare it would be perfectly understandable to be angry at God and everything else in the world. For those touched by this tragedy, rage is the only understandable immediate response. The Bible itself records the honest questions, and even angry prayers, of many "heroes of the faith" (e.g., Job, David, Jeremiah). God isn't threatened by our anger or doubts.
But when the dust eventually settles, there comes a time to begin to think through who is really responsible for this evil. And when we do this, my contention is that responsibility can't be attached to God.

It seems to me, Dad, that if God is going to give free wills to His creatures, He has to allow for the possibility of them misusing that freedom, even if this means hurting others. To be significantly free is to be morally responsible, and to be morally responsible means being morally responsible to each other. what is the freedom to love or not love unless it is freedom to enrich or harm another? God structured things this way because the alernative would be to have a race of robots who can't genuinely love-but that's hardly worth creating, is it? So why doesn't God intervene every time someone is going to misuse his freedom and hurt another person? The answer, I believe, is found in the nature of freedom itself. A freedom which was prevented from being exercised whenever it was going to be misused simply wouldn't be freedom.

Look at it this way: if I give Denay five dollars, can I completely control the way she spends it? If I steppped in every time she was going to spend this money unwisely (according to my judgement), is it really her money at all? Did I really give her anything? If the only things she can buy with her money are things which I decide are worthwhile, is it really her money at all? Is it not rather still my money which I am indirectly spending through her? So too, if God really gives us freedom, it must be, at least to a large extent, irrevocable. He must have, within limits, a "hands off" attitude toward it. God creates free people who can do as they please, not determined instruments who always end up dong what he pleases.

Well, I hope this sheds a little light on this sticky question. If I'm correct, the horrendous evil we see people inflicting on each other in this world is a necessary possibility if this is to be the kind of world where love is possible. Even God couldn't have it any other way. Let me know if, and how, you see it differently.
I look forward to your response. As always, with all my love, Greg

Love In Christ-Jonathan Hooker
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sargentlard said:
It is all part of a bigger plan of which god lost the blueprints of. So now he watches for the hell of it.
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Hello Sargent,
Jeremiah 29:11-(From the very lips of God) "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope" Now this scipture was written years before even Christ came, but God never changes.....He knows you Sargent, He wants a relationship with you that you may come under this promise and hope. Love In Christ- Jonathan What's your name if you don't mind me asking?
 
Q25 said:
dont you know ,He works in mysterious ways;)
or maybe hes not all loving/good? :eek:
or maybe He doesnt exist!!
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Hello Q25,
My name is Jonathan, I accepted Jesus Christ Into my heart ever since I can remember, Ninth grade of Highschool to be exact. My best friend invited me to youth group and I went up on one of thier Christian Camps to a place called Forrest Home. Tis a place of sheer beauty, lovely pine trees, and rising mountains. Very nice in the Winter. I remember the night I took communion is the night I accepted him in my heart. I remember his Body that was broken for me and His blood that was shed, and because someone had the heart enough to show me Christ through their lives I got to experience Jesus. He died for me, that's love. God is loving Q, his love is deep, his love is wide and his love is long, may you come to understand this, that Jesus Christ being in his very nature God, became one of us and humbled himself in obedience. Obedience that led him to his death. God loves you and sent his son for you, there is no doubt, he wants to heal you, comfort you, and love you like nothing this world can offer. I pray come to know this and your life will be forever changed. God so loved this world he sent his only son, just to inevitably die, for us. You and me. Thats love, that a person would lay down their life even when it could have been in vain, even when Jesus knew we would hate and sin.....he still died for you and me. This is love of which you will find no greater. What say you to this? That there is a love waiting for you, and will always be waiting for you. Have you ever known what it is truly like to have a relationship with Jesus Christ?
 
Originally Posted by Payment Coupon
But when the dust eventually settles, there comes a time to begin to think through who is really responsible for this evil. And when we do this, my contention is that responsibility can't be attached to God.
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I'm not saying that God is morally responsible for causing suffering – I'm saying that allowing the suffering to occur is inconsistent with the behavior that one would expect from an all-loving God. If I were to watch an innocent person being assaulted on the street even though I could easily step in and prevent the attack, no one would say that I was morally responsible for the actions of the attacker; the attack was carried out by someone else, and I'm not responsible for other people's actions. The point is that by refusing to help I am demonstrating a callous disregard for the safety, happiness, and well-being of the victim. This is not consistent with the behavior one would expect if I loved the victim. Since God presumably loves everyone, it doesn't make sense that he would show such indifference to our suffering.
It seems to me, Dad, that if God is going to give free wills to His creatures, He has to allow for the possibility of them misusing that freedom, even if this means hurting others. To be significantly free is to be morally responsible, and to be morally responsible means being morally responsible to each other. what is the freedom to love or not love unless it is freedom to enrich or harm another? God structured things this way because the alernative would be to have a race of robots who can't genuinely love-but that's hardly worth creating, is it? So why doesn't God intervene every time someone is going to misuse his freedom and hurt another person? The answer, I believe, is found in the nature of freedom itself. A freedom which was prevented from being exercised whenever it was going to be misused simply wouldn't be freedom.
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This falls under the 'argument from free will' category that I've addressed above. As I've already pointed out, while this might explain why God allows people to deliberately inflict suffering on each other, it doesn't explain why God allows suffering that isn't related to human will. Interestingly, this exact point was raised by the father's letter – with his reference to suffering caused by drought in Africa – and the son's response completely ignores it!

Also, as I stated above, this doesn't seem to work even as an explanation for why God would allow people to deliberately hurt each other. You appear to be suggesting that God values the rights of a criminal to do what he wants more than the rights of a victim to not be murdered. Does that make sense to you? Do you feel that it would serve as a rational basis for any sort of justice system or moral code?
 
Nasor said:
I'm not saying that God is morally responsible for causing suffering – I'm saying that allowing the suffering to occur is inconsistent with the behavior that one would expect from an all-loving God. If I were to watch an innocent person being assaulted on the street even though I could easily step in and prevent the attack, no one would say that I was morally responsible for the actions of the attacker; the attack was carried out by someone else, and I'm not responsible for other people's actions. The point is that by refusing to help I am demonstrating a callous disregard for the safety, happiness, and well-being of the victim. This is not consistent with the behavior one would expect if I loved the victim. Since God presumably loves everyone, it doesn't make sense that he would show such indifference to our suffering. This falls under the 'argument from free will' category that I've addressed above. As I've already pointed out, while this might explain why God allows people to deliberately inflict suffering on each other, it doesn't explain why God allows suffering that isn't related to human will. Interestingly, this exact point was raised by the father's letter – with his reference to suffering caused by drought in Africa – and the son's response completely ignores it!

Also, as I stated above, this doesn't seem to work even as an explanation for why God would allow people to deliberately hurt each other. You appear to be suggesting that God values the rights of a criminal to do what he wants more than the rights of a victim to not be murdered. Does that make sense to you? Do you feel that it would serve as a rational basis for any sort of justice system or moral code?
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God's love is just
 
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