Very old question: why would an all-powerful and all-loving god allow us to suffer?

Nasor

Valued Senior Member
I've always wondered how some people, especially Christian, reconcile the idea of an all-powerful and all-loving God allowing terrible things to happen to people. I love my family. If I saw something bad about to happen to some member of my family, I would certainly step in and prevent it if I had the power to do so. Yet it appears that God, who presumable has to power it help anyone and everyone, routinely decides to sit idly by while his loved ones suffer.

Some people try to reconcile this apparent paradox by claiming that God is following some sort of plan that humans aren't able to understand. This explanation doesn't satisfy. Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves? God could presumably have created a different plan to achieve the same results that didn't involve suffering, since there is by definition nothing that he can’t do.
 
It is all part of a bigger plan of which god lost the blueprints of. So now he watches for the hell of it.
 
Nasor said:
I've always wondered how some people, especially Christian, reconcile the idea of an all-powerful and all-loving God allowing terrible things to happen to people. I love my family. If I saw something bad about to happen to some member of my family, I would certainly step in and prevent it if I had the power to do so. Yet it appears that God, who presumable has to power it help anyone and everyone, routinely decides to sit idly by while his loved ones suffer.

Some people try to reconcile this apparent paradox by claiming that God is following some sort of plan that humans aren't able to understand. This explanation doesn't satisfy. Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves? God could presumably have created a different plan to achieve the same results that didn't involve suffering, since there is by definition nothing that he can’t do.
dont you know ,He works in mysterious ways;)
or maybe hes not all loving/good? :eek:
or maybe He doesnt exist!!
 
That's why alot of people believe in a hands off God.
Or it could be something like the Hindu religion, where one experiences a myriad of lifes until enlightment. Therefore any experience, however horrible, is a necessary one.
 
I've always wondered how some people, especially Christian, reconcile the idea of an all-powerful and all-loving God allowing terrible things to happen to people.
Because the idea of "good" or "terrible" things is a human notion. To God, it's all good. Otherwise, it wouldn't be.
 
tiassa said:
Because the idea of "good" or "terrible" things is a human notion. To God, it's all good. Otherwise, it wouldn't be.

Tiassa are you spinning for God?
 
Nasor said:
This explanation doesn't satisfy.

Why should it? Have faith and shut the hell up! Hehe. I think that's god's golden rule eh? Depends on who you ask I'm sure. If you keep asking those kind of questions you'll go to hell you dirty sinner.

Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves?

Who are you to question god?

If you believe in god, then you are wrong to question him. If you don't, you can't really believe your question is valid. If you're on the fence, well, there is a lot to consider. If you would like to presume god, then we should consider some other things before we even get to this question.

God could presumably have created a different plan to achieve the same results that didn't involve suffering, since there is by definition nothing that he can’t do.

How do you know they don't exist simultaneous to this one? Maybe god is cruel and vengeful. Maybe he's a masochist. Maybe suffering isn't really bad, it just seems that way from our lowly human perspective. Maybe a whole lot of things.

I suppose maybe you should ask ten different priests or clergy types and see if you get the same answer. I'd guess at least 6 of them would say something to the effect of "you cannot question god's plan" and go circular from there.

Hmmm.

If god is omnipotent, I believe it follows directly that evidence of god should appear wholly ridiculous to the limited power and scope of humans. It's apples and calculus.
 
He works in mysterious ways? I'm sure there's some reason. Perhaps it's because if he made life here perfect, there would be no reason to die and join Heaven? Because then Heaven would be no incentive? Or maybe we're an accident, and every other planet in the universe is a utopia, but we are the flaw. :bugeye:
 
Well, were are still here aren't we?
Perhaps the suffering of some individuals was required to keep certain forces in balance.
Maybe he works with percentages, like, I could prevent 20% of suffering now, but that would cause 90% to suffer later, when, if I let 20% suffer, that will lead to only 1% suffering later.
Perhaps suffering has nothing to do with the long term well being of humans.
Perhaps we are all being punished, perhaps for Eve's transgression?
Perhaps he does exist, and he's just an asshole.
 
Nasor said:
I've always wondered how some people, especially Christian, reconcile the idea of an all-powerful and all-loving God allowing terrible things to happen to people. I love my family. If I saw something bad about to happen to some member of my family, I would certainly step in and prevent it if I had the power to do so. Yet it appears that God, who presumable has to power it help anyone and everyone, routinely decides to sit idly by while his loved ones suffer.

Good question. And a hard one. Here's my best shot: in God's original plan, nobody had to suffer. However, He gave us free will. So then humans chose to turn away from God, also relinquishing some of His protection.

Today, if we choose to turn away from our own way and back to God, we fall under His protection again.

What about Christians who have car accidents, cancer, etc. anyway? Well, the best answer I can give is, look to Job. (Someone was bound to mention him eventually.) Anyway, the book of Job is often misunderstood to mean that God allowed all those bad things to happen to him to "teach him a lesson" or something. Wrong. Look at what Job says in this verse:

"For what I fear comes upon me, and what I dread befalls me." Job 3:25

Job was afraid. This allowed Satan to get a foot in the door and that was it. Jesus tells us not to worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will worry about itself.

Nasor said:
Some people try to reconcile this apparent paradox by claiming that God is following some sort of plan that humans aren't able to understand. This explanation doesn't satisfy. Why would God create a plan that involves terrible suffering for the ones he loves? God could presumably have created a different plan to achieve the same results that didn't involve suffering, since there is by definition nothing that he can’t do.

You're absolutely right; the idea of a God who plans to make His children suffer is unsatisfying, and, in a word, nonsense. I would venture that this idea is the number one reason people reject God.

Hope this helps,
--Aaron
 
It's only a test. It was the lower beings that questioned our creator and asked to put us humans to the test if we were to become what is destined.

Get over it and move on.
 
I think it has something to do with the eastern concept of "adoption",
A son was an heir - potentially of all his father had but while still a child under the care of tutors, he was in relation to the "father's bussiness" no different than a servant.
A ceremony was performed on his thirtieth birthday in which if he had proven himself worthy of handling the family bussiness, He was formally "Adopted".
We are born into the kingdom as sons, in the new birth....but the journey only begins there.
Were must have our senses exercised in the discernment of both good and evil, move from faith (which is a gift) unto virtue, knowledge patience , godleness, brotherly kindness, and love.
Faith is a gift but character is a victory.
Since John the kingdom of heaven is "preached" and the violent take it by force.
You have to "press" your way in. To He that overcomes, Jesus said ; "I will grant to sit with me in my throne.
If He just pushed us through a tube and pulled us out the other end, ...there would be nothing to overcome.
We in the end are to be "adopted" as sons of God....not as we think of adoption as a child who's brought in from another family, but as a child thats reached the postion of taking part in the rule of his fathers kingdom.

Galatians 4:1-5
"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."


Also read I Peter 1:4-7
"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ"
 
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True, God uses our "trials and tribulations" for good:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God... Romans 8:28

But that wasn't His original idea. He doesn't like to see us suffer at all.

We already have the victory. There isn't anything to overcome; Jesus already did it. We just have to claim the victory, then we've already won.
 
A similar topic was recently brought up in another forum I go to.

Basically there are some people that believe that since "God" is omnipotent and omniscient he must know what the future would bring, therefore he must approve of pain and suffering since he apparently does nothing to curtail human suffering.

My view is that if there is a God, he would be closest to the Diest version.
He created all, set the rules, put the ball in play, then backed off to let it do what it's going to do while he watches (or he may not even care to watch).

He would still be omnipotent.

The ability to control all does not imply the necessity or obligation to do so.
I could invent a board game.
I would know all the rules.
I would know how to cheat.
I would choose to abide by the rules I created.
The game does not have power over me, I chose to follow the constraints I invented.

The rules are imbedded into the game already.
The laws of physics.
There are no other unbreakable rules.

We can't break them, not because God is watching and will squash us with his thumb if we do, like the Tower of Babel or something.
We can't break them simply because they are integral to the design of the system.

I can kill you right now.
If God were "good" and enforced Biblical morality, I wouldn't be able to do that.
Since God created me with free will, I have the choice to kill you.
He CAN do something about it, but he doesn't because he is abiding by the rules of non-interference that he made for himself.

However, I can't fly to the moon right now under the power of the magic wings I tuck under my shirt while I am at work.
Not because God is watching me, but because it is a rule built into the game.

Allowing "evil" to happen to people does not make God malevolent himself.
He does not perpetrate the evil.
Abstention of interference does not imply malevolence.
Especially if "Heaven" exists.
The petty little woes that humans suffer on earth are but a speck of sand in eternity.
That is like saying if you mother cared about you she wouldn't let you get a hangnail.

Besides, the VAST majority of suffering humans go through is caused by other humans.
Maybe he is watching and saying, "You deserve it you shallow, self-absorbed, arrogant little fucks!"

Who's to say?
The point, however (believe it or not, I do have a point buried in here somewhere), is that someone could very well be omnipotent, but not interfere.
If he IS omnipotent, he has the power to turn his back if he wishes.

Omniscient means all-knowing.
Omnipotent means all-powerful.

A being that has the power to do anything that is possible and knows the answer to every question that it is possible to answer can be considered omnipotent and omniscient.
This being does not necessarily have to have the ability to see into the future.

Perhaps the future is unknown because it is unknowable... Unknowable by anyone.

If there is a "God" that designed this system, he very well could have designed it so the future can not be known nor entirely predictable.

Plus, as I said earlier, even if he DID have the ability to see into the future, he could simply choose not to.

Even if God does exist, what makes humans so arrogant to think that he would give a shit about the absurdly petty troubles and wishes of ANY of us, nevermind ALL of us.
If he cared even in the least about us, what would compel him to intervene in any way, nevermind orchestrate every least detail of everone's lives?
Even if he cared enough to intervene on some level, what makes us say that he would want life to be easy and happy for all?

If there is such thing as heaven, shangri-la, paradise, nibbana, etc, existence there, by account of all the major religions, is without trouble, difficulty, pain, strife...
If anything, life here would be a diversion from that, and the risks faced during your earthly lifetime is what would give this whiole existence any appeal to someone in a "paradise".
Don't you think?
 
If we are born of God we have overcome:

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 1 John 5:4

Very true, we must, at the end still be overcoming. (i.e. not turned away from the faith)

I know I'm not finished growing or learning, "pressing on to the goal," but the battle is the Lord's, and in Him we really do already have the victory.

--Aaron
 
I know I'm not finished growing or learning, "pressing on to the goal," but the battle is the Lord's, and in Him we really do already have the victory.

---------------

I agree. It's like Joshua's armies when they crossed the Jordan and entered the promised land.
The Lord said He would fight for them, but they still had to set the soles of their feet on every inch of land they would possess.
 
The highest love is a love that allows freedom, in fact love and freedom are interchangable. God did exactly that, he/she gave us the freedom to be whoever we wish to be. That's why God never stops us from doing anything. Also, the suffering is only a point of view, there is no hell, all is well, why would God do something if God know everything is alright?
 
I don't quite understand why people even believe in free will any more. It's such a simple one to disprove. As to God's love, if he was infinite in love and power he would have no option but to make all our lives infinitely wonderful, as doing any less means he lacks one of the prior qualities.
 
Siddhartha said:
I don't quite understand why people even believe in free will any more. It's such a simple one to disprove.
Simple, huh?
Let's see. Disprove it.


Siddhartha said:
As to God's love, if he was infinite in love and power he would have no option but to make all our lives infinitely wonderful, as doing any less means he lacks one of the prior qualities.
Myopic, in my opinion.
 
Siddhartha:

Aren't all our lives infinitly wonderful? Just because people do not appreciate their lives does not mean they are not infinitly wonderful.
 
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