US: 30 shot at school, China: 22 knifed at school

The Marquis said:
It isn't normal by the standards that you might go by, perhaps.

Tell me. Do you think Anders Brevik was insane?
Or was he just just really, really angry about something?
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Ultimately if we are to address this honestly, that's a matter of semantics. Suppose we walk away from the word "insane" for a moment. Wipe that slate clean, and suppose we define mental health as follows: a person who maintains right thinking is mentally healthy, and a person who deviates from right thinking is unhealthy. Forget for a moment the problematics of measuring it and classifying it. I would simply ask: What right thinking involves arming for mortal combat? Answer: nothing. That's where the insanity begins.

There is a huge gap between honesty and denial which lies at the root cause of the relentless slaughter of human beings in the modern world. Cure the denial, and the huge logjam that paralyzes world progress is suddenly freed. Address the underlying phobias, delusions and psychopathy that infiltrate people's minds by implementing genuinely proactive policies to promote right thinking. Above all, strive to elevate human dignity. Teach children from a very early age, and throughout their education, that right thinking begins with honesty. There is a dishonest superstructure of denial and propaganda seen in the the Right Wing elements of government. These need to be excised. Public officials need to be held liable for perjury when they deliberately lie. When young people see a system that's run by rational, temperate and honest officials, this is when right thinking becomes a tangible concept. "Do as I say, not as I do" may work for adults, but it damages the fragile mental health of the young and impressionable. All people need to be able to recognize the markers of unsound thinking, to know to ask for help, and to always be mindful of the importance of tending to their own mental health. When initiated at a very young age and reinforced throughout all years of schooling, it is conceivable that no child would grow into wrong thinking. Conversely, if we keep kicking the can down the road, and letting kids end up where the chips may fall, then we are staging the crimes of the future.
 
Bells said:
So in the meantime, let them purchase and own guns?

There should not be a 'where do you draw the line' on this issue. People who are mentally unstable should not be allowed to own or purchase firearms, full stop. Before you purchase a firearm, you should be made to undergo tests to ensure you are mentally competent and mentally sound.

If it was up to the NRA, criminals and even those who are insane should be allowed to purchase guns or could purchase guns because they are pushing to eliminate even background checks. And they are pushing to ensure that criminal background checks are abolished. It defies logic the extent that those who deem it is their right to bear arms will go to ensure they can keep holding on to those guns.
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I think the point was missed. How do you objectively define a mentally stable or unstable person? As far as the NRA is concerned, so what if they are pushing to end background checks? If they want to waste their money and time pushing then let them push all they want, they will be rejected like they were in that article you posted.

Bells said:
Lanza's mother was also competent. She is now dead by her own gun, murdered by her own son.

I think your competent argument died a while ago.
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I was referring to the results of the Kellerman study and that shows lots of incompetence. But yes Lanza's mom (and her son) were both competent. In recent news today it looks like the son planned everything out very carefully.

Bells said:
And yet you think you right to own assault weapons is above the right of children to not be killed by said assault weapons that are legally purchased by mentally unstable people.

Apparently the rights and freedom of children to live in safety in the US is of less value than your right to purchase an assault weapon. I mean, as you said "If you live in the U.S. then your freedoms might come at the cost of a family member's life. "..

Which I find galling that anyone could deem it acceptable that they would rather keep putting up with mass shootings than have restrictions on the types of firearms they can keep or purchase.
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This is because you value safety over freedom and cannot understand how people could choose the reverse especially when faced with consequential tragedy. America will never be a safe country. There are two signs at the front door. One says "Give me liberty or give me death". The other says "Danger, enter at your own risk".

Bells said:
Unbelievable..

You are more likely to die from your own firearm in your own home, more likely killed by someone you know and trust than you are to be murdered by a stranger...

What part of that doesn't quite sink in?

In effect, you are training your family, as Mrs Lanza did, and her own family member murdered her with her own weapon. It is a prime example of just how badly your argument fails.
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Your argument is that the Lanza family failed (for whatever reason); therefore, all families who train with firearms will fail. It's a rather silly fallacy.

Bells said:
When freedom infringes on the rights of citizens to exist safely, then those freedoms need to be curbed. After all, you are not free to even park a car wherever you may want, yet you think your freedom to own any type of gun you so desire outweighs the freedom of people to not be killed by mentally unstable people who are apparently freely allowed to purchase weapons.. To put it simply, your freedom ends when your actions can harm others. You are not free to scream "fire" in a packed theater, like you are not free to open fire in a packed theater with a gun.

So no, you are not free. We are governed by laws that are in place to ensure that people remain safe. Because a person's right to life and safety far outweighs your freedom to own a gun.

The moment your freedoms infringe on the safety and becomes a risk to the lives of others, then your freedoms are curbed.
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The U.S. is a country that values freedom over safety. What that means is that when the two butt heads, freedom is going to be the victor. There is no right to safety.

Bells said:
I am not the one going on about arming one's household and teaching everyone to shoot as a warning to all and sundry. You are.

That to me says fear. That you want people to know you are armed and dangerous and supposedly competent because you are afraid of others.

After all, if you were not afraid, why would you need to spread the word?
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Maybe you will understand via a different approach. At all points in human history there are people whom harm people and it happens for one simple reason, it's not forbidden by reality. Would it be your preference to be easy to harm or risky to try and harm?

Bells said:
And people are free to not be shot by lunatics who are legally and freely allowed to purchase a weapon under the guise of "freedom".

I'll put it this way, you are not free to put other people's lives at risk.

You are not free to walk down the street shooting in the air because you are free to own a gun. So while you may harp on about your freedom and how it sacrifices safety, you are actually not free to sacrifice anyone's safety, gun or no gun.

I'm not the one holding onto my gun declaring it's my right and my freedom to own said weapon..
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Actually I am free to walk down the street and shoot a gun in the air. There might be negative consequences to it, but I am free to do it. I also don't have to lift a finger to sacrafice someone's safety. The sacrafice is already made just by being a U.S. citizen.

Bells said:
I understand the American concept of freedom just fine. If you are to be taken seriously, you are saying it's fine for children to die so long as you are free to own your gun.. That has been how you have been coming across in this discussion. That you believe your freedom to own a gun far outweighs the safety of the general population.
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I have seen evidence that you may not understand; however, I'll clarify my position for you. The U.S. is a both a "free" place and an "unsafe" place. It's expected that the lack of safety will result in injury or death for some people. Anything that people declare as "problems" have to be solved under that context, not by changing the context.
 
Aqueous Id said:
The people horrified by mass murder, and who are not packing heat in anticipation of a coming Armageddon or shootout at the Lonesome Corral, would probably just as soon see sweeping gun control legislation. That's one prong of a remedial response.
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Yes, there is that crowd.

Aqueous Id said:
The other overriding concern is the mental health issue, which arises in all cases of homicide. Mental health remediation can't be legislated in the same way. But a long term commitment to acknowledge mental illness as Public Enemy Number One is a feasible response. Gun regulation falls under criminal law. But mental health intervention falls under the administrative laws, and there is a blank slate in that area just waiting for us to carve out a design for addressing this elephant in the room. We need laws--strong laws--that promote mental health in the US, and indeed, throughout the world.
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While I agree that the U.S. is mental health deficient, I am not sure that using just law will provide any benefit. I see potential improvement if something like this can be done:

* Provide very easy to access mental health assistance.
* Provide outlets for people to vent their destructive behaviors.
* Provide strong incentives to use both.

Certainly not an easy nor a cheap task.
 
Crunchy Cat,

I think you need to recalibrate.

Your beloved guns don't make you free. They put you in a state where you're all constantly cowering in fear.
 
Article 1
Everyone under 18 has these rights.

Article 2
All children have these rights, no matter who
they are, where they live, what their parents do,
what language they speak, what their religion is,
whether they are a boy or girl, what their culture
is, whether they have a disability, whether they
are rich or poor. No child should be treated
unfairly on any basis.

Article 3
All adults should do what is best for you. When
adults make decisions, they should think about
how their decisions will affect children.

Article 4
The government has a responsibility to make sure
your rights are protected. They must help your
family to protect your rights and create an environment where you can grow and reach your
potential.

Article 5
Your family has the responsibility to help you
learn to exercise your rights, and to ensure that
your rights are protected.

Article 6
You have the right to be alive.
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http://www.unicef.org/southafrica/SAF_resources_crcchildfriendly.pdf


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_happiness

So how the HELL can any of you try to argue that this obsession with guns and "freedom" is in line with the RIGHTS of the child OR even your own countries founding

The constitutional right to life is a little more complex
 
James R said:
Crunchy Cat,

I think you need to recalibrate.

Your beloved guns don't make you free. They put you in a state where you're all constantly cowering in fear.
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It's strange that gun ownership for self defense is being equated to fear. When its cold outside, do you put on a jacket because you are afraid of the cold or do you put on a jacket because you don't want to be cold? It's no different than someone whom owns a gun because they don't want to be an easy target. Some people learn martial arts for that same reason.

You are correct about something, guns don't make me (nor anyone else) free. It's interesting that you might have the perception that Americans think that however.
 
There is not better ethos argument then this:

1. Person argues he and every American has the right to own guns.
2. Show said person a pile of bullet riddle American child corpses.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Their parents chose for them by raising them in the U.S.
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Article 2
All children have these rights, no matter who
they are, where they live, what their parents do,
what language they speak, what their religion is,
whether they are a boy or girl, what their culture
is, whether they have a disability, whether they
are rich or poor. No child should be treated
unfairly on any basis.
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Try again
 
Asguard said:
Try again
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The U.S. isn't a pedocracy. You were correct about the three "founding founders" core values for the U.S.: Life (freedom to survive), liberty (freedom from oppression), and the pursuit of happiness (freedom to pursue whatever makes you happy).
 
The Sciforums Libertarian contingent seems to be missing in action. They have been awfully quiet on this issue which is very unusual for them. Where are the Libertarian morality lectures? Where are the Libertarians?
 
ElectricFetus said:
Technically its easier to make a bomb then a gun, but those are "ban", shit man give me some kerosene and ammonium nitrate and I will totally blow my fr'king hands off for the lulz!
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you could more than likely make a chemical weapon out shit you'd find at your local pool.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
* Provide very easy to access mental health assistance.
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You are very naively and very romantically assuming that current Western psychotherapy knows how to help with and cure all mental problems.
It doesn't.

If for the lack of success you simply blame people - then that is just cruel.


* Provide outlets for people to vent their destructive behaviors.
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Why vent it? Why not go to the core of it, address it there, deal with it there, so that no "venting" is necessary?


* Provide strong incentives to use both.
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?!

Mental health should be a reward in and of itself, not something you are encouraged to do or have so that then you can get a free t-shirt.
 
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