Understanding God

[fruityfigtree]

If god is omniscient then he is an immortal puppet who knows what he will do for every second of eternity and can do nothing about it.

omniscient : having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

God is omniscient so He's way smarter than you. He KNOWS all things and UNDERSTANDS all things and PERCEIVES all things. Therefore He has a MIND/SPIRIT. You have a spirit too.

If he is omnipotent, he can change that but then he is not omniscient as he didn't know he'd do that.

omnipotent: having very great or unlimited authority or power.

God is omnipotent so He is way more powerful than you. He chooses to do what He wants to do because He has a WILL and so He chose to give you a will too. Therefore God is not an immortal puppet He is independant in Himself.

As to the classic image of god, being all powerful he is one of a kind so has no equal, no friends and can love no one. Everyone and everything is as far below him as viruses are below us. He never gets tired so knows no fatigue. He can never be ill, never suffer. What he wants is so he never wants anything. He can never know hate because what he hates cannot survive as can nothing unless he allows it. He can never know want because anything he wants, is!

God has a SOUL that is basically the seat of emotions and He has given you one too. Since He is omniscient and omnipotent His soul is way larger and way more perfect than yours. He has no equal...yet. His friends are those who love Him and are increasing their souls in His likeness within the restrictions of His covenant and He loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son as a way to reconcile (to bring into agreement or harmony; make compatible or consistent) Adam and his seed back to Him.

All conventional matter and energy we know of has very strict limitations so god cannot be made of them.

I agree.

We have more in common with a brick wall than we have with god and he has absolutely nothing in common with us. Anyone who thinks they can share anything with such an impossible being is deluded.

I disagree.

What we have in common with God is a mind(spirit), soul and will. God is omniscient and omnipotent therefore He can initiate a relationship with man through covenant.

You however, are like a brick wall to God: dead. To God, you are the one that's deluded.

 

[greenberg]

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

 

[fruityfigtree]

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Elaborate...

 

[greenberg]

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

 

[fruityfigtree]

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

OR it requires God to actually reveal Himself to you...

 

[greenberg]

OR it requires God to actually reveal Himself to you...

That doesn't solve anything, though, if a person is supposed to follow God freely.

As long as the stipulation is that the person needs to follow God freely, then God revealing himself to the person doesn't change the fact that in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options.

If a person doesn't know all possible options, they cannot decide which one is the best one of them all.

 

[fruityfigtree]

As long as the stipulation is that the person needs to follow God freely, then God revealing himself to the person doesn't change the fact that in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options.

You can only fall back on logic and reason which I cannot blame you for. But when we bring in the concepts of truth and belief, your logic and reasoning becomes heavily flawed especially when truth is that there is only one God who created everything leaving the person with only one option: to choose or reject God. (edit: i mean two options)

If you believe that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings yet you are not omniscient then when God does reveal Himself to you, you can still choose freely because you can reject Him.

 

[greenberg]

But when we bring in the concepts of truth and belief, your logic and reasoning becomes heavily flawed especially when truth is that there is only one God who created everything

As a non-theist, I do not know this "truth", nor have you theists so far given any workable instruction for how to arrive at this truth.

If anything, it is a "truth" that I would have to accept apriori, blindly.

If you believe that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings

That was never stipulated by me.

 

[fruityfigtree]

You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options". The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best.

So therefore, the truth can either be that there is only one or that there are more than one. Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand.

Nevertheless, we are faced with three perspectives and only one can be true.

You have to choose a principle to reason with and you have come to this conclusion: "in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options". This suggests a perspective from which there is more than one omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being does it not? If that's the case then your logic and reason is flawed.

The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler. There can only be one for it to be the best. So all other options have thus been eliminated leaving us with God - omniscient and omnipotent thus being the best.

I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being. So therefore I have no other options to explore in regards to which God to follow but I have two options in regards to how I'm going to respond to that knowledge. I can either choose to mould with His purpose and plan for my salvation or walk independant of His truth. From my perspective, your logic and reason is thus heavily flawed.

As a npn-theist, I do not know this "truth", nor have you theists so far given any workable instruction for how to arrive at this truth.

www.second8thweek.com
http://www.s8week.com/Clemency
http://s8wstudentresources.com
http://www.s8wapostlesteach.org

If anything, it is a "truth" that I would have to accept apriori, blindly.

http://www.s8week.com/Clemency

 

[greenberg]

You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options".

If you want to explore the set of all possible options, then that is a much bigger set, including things like "not following anyone but oneself", "suspending decision", "worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster" etc.

The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best.

Do you know all the options?
Are you omniscient?

Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand.

I never said that there were none.

The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler.

How do you know that this is the best option?

I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being.

Why have you chosen this?
Have you chosen this already before you started to believe in God?

 

[fruityfigtree]

“ Originally Posted by fruityfigtree
You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options". ”

If you want to explore the set of all possible options, then that is a much bigger set, including things like "not following anyone but oneself", "suspending decision", "worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster" etc.

Are you kidding me? You would describe those as omnipotent and omniscient? I thought God is defined as being omniscient and omnipotent...

“ The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best. ”

Do you know all the options?
Are you omniscient?

God is omnipotent AND omniscient. I am neither. So my best option is to follow Him.

“ Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand. ”

I never said that there were none.

My bad I thought non-theism meant you don't believe in anything superior than you or is that athiesm? Anyway, that is my ignorance.

“ The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler. ”

How do you know that this is the best option?

Would you follow a stupid and weak one? Is that the best option?

“ I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being. ”

Why have you chosen this?
Have you chosen this already before you started to believe in God?

Ah, I see now. No, before I believed in God I did not know Him. Then He revealed Himself to me through His Son Jesus Christ and I chose to bow the knee.

 

[greenberg]

fruityfigtree,

You do realize that you are building your statements on the benefit of hindsight?

Someone who does not yet know which option is the best one - well, that someone just does not yet know which option is the best one. That someone can't knowingly pick the best one.

 

[TruthSeeker]

You do realize that you are building your statements on the benefit of hindsight?

I don't think he does realize that....

Someone who does not yet know which option is the best one - well, that someone just does not yet know which option is the best one. That someone can't knowingly pick the best one.

Very true......


The reason why I "accepted" Jesus, was not because the person, nor punishment, nor reward, but because of his teachings. However, I don't agree with everything that is written in the Bible. Some things seem to have been added and modified from the original.... :scratchin:

Regardless, it is illogical to "choose" God because He is omniscient and omnipotent simply because one does not know whether that God exists in the first place. That is the problem that atheists face. They cannot find evidence, therefore they don't believe.

 

[greenberg]

Regardless, it is illogical to "choose" God because He is omniscient and omnipotent simply because one does not know whether that God exists in the first place. That is the problem that atheists face. They cannot find evidence, therefore they don't believe.

To find that evidence would require omniscience.

 

[TruthSeeker]

To find that evidence would require omniscience.

Exactly. That's what I stated earlier. And that's the problem with fruityfigtree's argument. It requires omniscience on the part of atheists.

My argument is conpletely different. As I said, I didn't "accept" Jesus because I believed God is the best option and that He would send me to heaven, I "accepted" Jesus because of his teachings. It's not even a matter of acceptance. His main teachings are perfeclty aligned with my own principles. That's why I consider myself a Christian, a follower of Christ. That's why I can "carry the cross" like he commanded us to do. I do believe in his cause. He was a peace teacher. He wanted world peace, and he wanted us to work towards world peace. That's what truly make someone his disciple. If you read the Bible carefully, he clearly states that some who are believed to go to heaven will not, while someone who are believed not to go will. That's because of the misunderstanding that a murderer can go to heaven simply because he states that he "accept Jesus in his heart". Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

Matthew 5
"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

This requirement is actually awesome because it does not require you to know God. That's just impossible. The requirement is that you are pure of heart, that you are a peacemaker. You have a good heart, you go to heaven. In fact, heaven is already in the "children of God", because as the scriptures read, the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17
"20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. "

 

[nova900]

Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

. "

Man o man ..I share the same thought. I believe this was the original intent before the orthodox elements changed the concept to an idealogy to suit their own selfish purposes.
Just giving verbal assent to Jesus to gain salvation accomplishes nothing..I mean, where is the spiritual advancement/growth in such a concept?

These same teachings were reflected in other spiritual leaders...Krishna, the Goddess Aset ( Isis) ..to achieve ,like Jesus; a oneness with God/the universe while remaining in the duality of the physical universe.

 

[greenberg]

Just giving verbal assent to Jesus to gain salvation accomplishes nothing..I mean, where is the spiritual advancement/growth in such a concept?

I'm sure many theists share the same sentiment.

I see the problem with declaring such assent in the fact that the people who hear it, will likely interpret it their own way - which might be completely different from what you meant. I know for myself that this can lead to a lot of trouble - people either assuming that one is with them, or against them, or crazy. Declare such assent and some people will feel obligated to persecute you, or to consider you one of theirs, and all sorts of things.

 

[Adstar]

No all men can be convicted of the truth that they are sinners needing salvation. But once a person shouts down their own conscience with their will they Kill that part within them that connects them to God. And nothing one can say to them will move them.


But if God is omnipotent, wouldn't He be able to stop that?

Yes but the question is: Does he want to stop someone who loves evil and hates the will of God following their will? Scriptures reveal that those who love unrighteousness are given over to delusions and deceptions.

But can you consciously experience eternity in heaven?

I never have and i doubt anyone alive ever has.

Yes. I am extremely calm. No matter what the situation. I do not fret or worry anymore.

Really? Are you sure your circumstances are not too easy? I mean... you don't live in Africa and you are not starving, right?

Nope. But i expect to be murdered for my beliefs one day and i expect it to be done by beheading. I believe the near future will be the most terrible times on earth since the dawn of man. I can see much starvation happening all over this world not just in Africa. The peace that i know is not reliant on material backing.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Exactly. That's what I stated earlier. And that's the problem with fruityfigtree's argument. It requires omniscience on the part of atheists.

My argument is conpletely different. As I said, I didn't "accept" Jesus because I believed God is the best option and that He would send me to heaven, I "accepted" Jesus because of his teachings. It's not even a matter of acceptance. His main teachings are perfeclty aligned with my own principles. That's why I consider myself a Christian, a follower of Christ. That's why I can "carry the cross" like he commanded us to do. I do believe in his cause. He was a peace teacher. He wanted world peace, and he wanted us to work towards world peace. That's what truly make someone his disciple. If you read the Bible carefully, he clearly states that some who are believed to go to heaven will not, while someone who are believed not to go will. That's because of the misunderstanding that a murderer can go to heaven simply because he states that he "accept Jesus in his heart". Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

Matthew 5
"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

This requirement is actually awesome because it does not require you to know God. That's just impossible. The requirement is that you are pure of heart, that you are a peacemaker. You have a good heart, you go to heaven. In fact, heaven is already in the "children of God", because as the scriptures read, the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17
"20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. "

I believe one should believe and accept the Words of Jesus. And a part of that is loving ones enemies and not taking part in war.

But your posts is about one striving for self justification by achieving or working towards world peace. See your falling into the trap that so many fall into of trying to pay for eternity with God.

As prophecy reveals there will be no world peace until after the Messiah Jesus returns and establishes it on earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

If there was a higher power than God and that authority desires to be followed then it would make itself known and would put forward it's desires in regard to mankind.

Of course there are competing powers to the will of God and indeed some people look upon satan as being a god, not only a god, but a better god than the God of Abraham.

Irrespective of the competing revelations each person will be attracted to the one that they embrace with their will. So each one will go down the path they deem right. So be it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days